Turning Invisible

[Marblehead]

Happy cultivating. I'm going to be away for a few weeks so leave you in peace.

 

H.

You just came back and now you are going to be away again? Wow!

 

Getting a lot of mileage on that path of yours!

 

Be well and best wishes.

 

No, we don't need to become a spook in order to become invisible (unnoticed).

[Mr. T]

hey all,

 

invisibility in the tao always seemed to refer to the reduction of our interference with the world. if something is flowing with the current of the stream, then it makes no splashes, and could slip on by unnoticed. however, if one is swimming against the current they will make quite a splash and a lot of gasping and it probably won't be pretty. i never really took it to mean literal invisibilty. they have cloaks for that...

[Stosh]

hey all,

 

invisibility in the tao always seemed to refer to the reduction of our interference with the world. if something is flowing with the current of the stream, then it makes no splashes, and could slip on by unnoticed. however, if one is swimming against the current they will make quite a splash and a lot of gasping and it probably won't be pretty. i never really took it to mean literal invisibilty. they have cloaks for that...

Yes,

you are being very correct and reasonable

Thats a rational way to look at the wordage

It is just personal attitude that I have on seeing

that same wordage, spoken in a way that embraces

or could be seen to encourage an affirmative atttude

towards the unrealistic.

If a person means unnoticed

If a person means ignored

If a person means non-disruptive

They would do others benefit to eschew the term 'invisible'

 

If a guest were to stop by and read that Taoists think they can make themselves invisible

It lends an aspect of ridiculousness to the various practices and practitioners

who understand better what is meant.

There are things I dont personally believe in,

but may have merit anyway.

 

If a person wants to live an ignored life

disconnected but non disruptive ...,

I dont endorse it , but it is still their 'right'

to follow a path that looks like that.

Well intended persons might toss out some opinion

on the open format of this thread and try to discourage

what they believe would be counterproductive.

Yes, that too, is a form of interference

but a person must weigh 'interference' with well intended 'involvement'

otherwise they become virtueless to the society,

regardless of their own spiritual attainment.

 

Stosh

[konchog uma]

i've been hesitant to jump in to this thread cause i can't actually do it (yet)

 

but there are ways to become literally invisible to sight. they are very advanced but exist nonetheless.

 

i am reminded of yogananda's guru, who, when pictures were taken of him, would not appear in the picture. But that is not invisibility proper, just a sort of related siddhi.

 

one of my teachers (ninjitsu) was working with some guys to move boxes, helping a buddy move out of his house. He was walking up and down a narrow hallway and stairs and other enclosed areas all day and at the end of the day one of the other guys, who my teacher remarked had a particularly weak and obtuse mind, said to him "nice to finally see you! we've been working all day, where have YOU been?!@" My teacher had walked past him 20 times that day, but just like a master yogi will retain prana with his breath automatically as a matter of breathing with his whole body and energy body, my teacher is able to manifest siddhi powers automatically, without meaning to or intending to do so. One of the interesting things about that story is that other people were able to see and notice him just fine, but the blockhead wasn't. His mind and energy were "closed" so to speak so he just simply didn't see or notice my teacher. What is the difference between that and invisibility?

 

Its hard to disappear in front of someones eyes like those 3 daoist masters did, but my teacher has disappeared from my attention and vision while walking right beside me, just to mess with me. He loves to hang out with natives and trackers/hunters and fuck with their heads by disappearing on them and then reappearing right next to them or behind them. There is breath, energy (shen), and intention involved, its not just a matter of being good at hiding or being particularly quiet

 

I have sat in a chair in the corner of a coffee shop right where i told my teacher i would be and had him call me on my phone while standing in my sight saying "where are you, you said you would be here?" but i was just focusing on a particular very high frequency of energy, not really intending to become invisible. He was preoccupied with important things at the time. He was amazed with me that day, because his mind and energy are so "open" that he is hard to play tricks of that sort on. I don't share all that to try to prove anything, or show off. Literally it was an accident. But i was meditating in a chair 20 feet away from where he was standing, having told him that i would be in that very chair, and he couldn't see me. I could see myself, but all things being relative, what is the difference between that and invisibility?

 

just some food for thought, and a reminder that at high levels of spiritual cultivation, amazing and miraculous things are possible. There are people that can levitate, teleport, and do more astonishing things without breaking a sweat.

Edited June 20, 2012 by anamatva

[Informer]

Hey, you are doing fine. Many of us are here in order to have others challenge our beliefs. I am one of those. (At least that is one of the reasons I remain active in many of the threads, especially the Taoist and philosophical threads.)

 

And yes, although I don't have very many virtues, patience is one that I do have.

 

No worry about what you said. The best way to test our thoughts is to put them out for others to consider and make comment to.

 

Please just keep being yourself and feel free to challenge anything I say whenever you wish. I do enjoy seeing if someone else can cause me to modify my understandings.

 

Open minded is another

[Marblehead]

Open minded is another

Thanks, my friend.

[Stosh]

i've been hesitant to jump in to this thread cause i can't actually do it (yet)

 

but there are ways to become literally invisible to sight. they are very advanced but exist nonetheless.

 

just some food for thought, and a reminder that at high levels of spiritual cultivation, amazing and miraculous things are possible. There are people that can levitate, teleport, and do more astonishing things without breaking a sweat.

 

Considering this earlier post , you wrote

 

In the end, i only have my suspicions based on my limited range of interaction with plants, animals, and spirits. But that being what it is, i don't think a CNS has much to do with consciousness. Maybe the mind is different from the brain and doesn't rest on the existance of grey/white matter. I think the brain is the interface between the mind and the body, in other words, our minds have an awareness or a thought, and it is filtered through the brain to send the electrical impulses to our, hands for example, or anywhere. There are a lot of different theories though, so i am open to the possibility of being wrong lol

 

You are open to the possibility of being wrong.

So,,, yes , You are wrong ,

not morally wrong ,

just wrong about what makes for a reasonable conclusion.

wrong in not accepting the limitations of the factual world.

Which can be really amazing such as it is,,

and deserves appreciation for its merits

Not on fantasy.

Stosh

[konchog uma]

Considering this earlier post , you wrote

 

In the end, i only have my suspicions based on my limited range of interaction with plants, animals, and spirits. But that being what it is, i don't think a CNS has much to do with consciousness. Maybe the mind is different from the brain and doesn't rest on the existance of grey/white matter. I think the brain is the interface between the mind and the body, in other words, our minds have an awareness or a thought, and it is filtered through the brain to send the electrical impulses to our, hands for example, or anywhere. There are a lot of different theories though, so i am open to the possibility of being wrong lol

 

You are open to the possibility of being wrong.

So,,, yes , You are wrong ,

not morally wrong ,

just wrong about what makes for a reasonable conclusion.

wrong in not accepting the limitations of the factual world.

Which can be really amazing such as it is,,

and deserves appreciation for its merits

Not on fantasy.

Stosh

 

LOL ill assume im right til you actually prove me wrong

 

in other words, i witnessed what i witnessed, and the limits of your worldview and scope of awareness don't mean a thing to me. They don't change what i witnessed.

Edited June 20, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

there will always be people who say that only the ordinary is possible, because to them, only the ordinary is possible.

 

that does not change the fact that extraordinary things are possible.

 

like i said i am hesitant to jump into the conversation because it has been dominated by the limited awareness which says that nobody can possibly be invisible. I dont care what you think about me, you can call me a liar, call me crazy, but i still experienced what i experienced.

 

i have talked to people who were about to call the police because my teacher was under icy water meditating for 30 minutes. But im sure you think thats impossible too lol

[Stosh]

there will always be people who say that only the ordinary is possible, because to them, only the ordinary is possible.

 

that does not change the fact that extraordinary things are possible.

 

like i said i am hesitant to jump into the conversation because it has been dominated by the limited awareness which says that nobody can possibly be invisible. I dont care what you think about me, you can call me a liar, call me crazy, but i still experienced what i experienced.

 

i have talked to people who were about to call the police because my teacher was under icy water meditating for 30 minutes. But im sure you think thats impossible too lol

 

Fine , you think my awareness is so limited that I miss out on 'facts' that you believe.

Ok thats your opinion, I give up (at least for now)

at trying to give 'my version' of reality a fair shake.

You felt outnumbered and it made you hesitant to speak your mind.

I get that feeling myself on this site sometimes.

The more I try to just lay out a clear view

the more it 'seems' I am trying to overwhelm with mere facts.

Opposite sides of the mirror are we I suppose.

Namaste

Stosh

[konchog uma]

Fine , you think my awareness is so limited that I miss out on 'facts' that you believe.

Ok thats your opinion, I give up (at least for now)

at trying to give 'my version' of reality a fair shake.

You felt outnumbered and it made you hesitant to speak your mind.

I get that feeling myself on this site sometimes.

The more I try to just lay out a clear view

the more it 'seems' I am trying to overwhelm with mere facts.

Opposite sides of the mirror are we I suppose.

Namaste

Stosh

 

Stosh,

 

Instead of citing an out-of-context quote from a completely different thread about cellular biology, why don't you try to answer the questions i posed in this thread?

 

Again... What is the difference between what i describe myself, and my teacher, experiencing, and invisibility?

 

It doesn't bother me that your mind is closed to the idea of siddhi powers, most people's minds are closed in that way. But if you are going to try to have a conversation with me, at least keep it relevant. Your logic seems to be "you admitted in a different thread to not knowing absolutely everything about biology, therefore, you're wrong about invisibility (even though you're talking about subjective experiences and things you yourself have witnessed)" so it is hard for me to know where to begin when replying to you, hence the lols in your direction.

 

I don't feel outnumbered by anyone; i am not engaging this discussion on the basis of trying to convert or convince anyone that what i believe is right. If you have seen enough to believe in siddhi powers, then you "know" i'm right. And if you are more rigid or restricted in your belief of what a human being is and is capable of, you "know" i'm wrong. I would be a little more hesitant when telling others what they experienced and why, because in this instance, you're wrong. Remember that you don't know absolutely everything either lol

 

Anyway, you happen to "know" that im wrong. Thats fine. Its expected really. I happen to have shared a story from my life, so i don't really care what you think you know. I experienced it firsthand! LOL i dont need any one else's verification!

 

so that is where i am coming from. You are welcome to believe whatever you want about reality and what spiritually practiced humans are capable of. Just be aware that the more you believe that life is purely mundane, ordinary and normal, the more of the miracle you miss.

[Marblehead]

I am reading but remaining silent for the time being as I have no need to convince anyone of anything.

[Stosh]

Stosh,

 

Instead of citing an out-of-context quote from a completely different thread about cellular biology, why don't you try to answer the questions i posed in this thread?

 

Again... What is the difference between what i describe myself, and my teacher, experiencing, and invisibility?

 

It doesn't bother me that your mind is closed to the idea of siddhi powers, most people's minds are closed in that way. But if you are going to try to have a conversation with me, at least keep it relevant. Your logic seems to be "you admitted in a different thread to not knowing absolutely everything about biology, therefore, you're wrong about invisibility (even though you're talking about subjective experiences and things you yourself have witnessed)" so it is hard for me to know where to begin when replying to you, hence the lols in your direction.

 

I dont recall that thread but I do find it ironic that you pointed lols at me because someone suggested I just laugh in your face ( text wise ) and I thought it too rude.

 

I don't feel outnumbered by anyone; i am not engaging this discussion on the basis of trying to convert or convince anyone that what i believe is right. If you have seen enough to believe in siddhi powers, then you "know" i'm right. And if you are more rigid or restricted in your belief of what a human being is and is capable of, you "know" i'm wrong. I would be a little more hesitant when telling others what they experienced and why, because in this instance, you're wrong. Remember that you don't know absolutely everything either lol

 

I said outnumbered rather than say you were intimidated as that seemed too rude as well.

instead of saying that you were ridiculously gullible I chose the phrase 'wrong'.

 

 

Anyway, you happen to "know" that im wrong. Thats fine. Its expected really. I happen to have shared a story from my life, so i don't really care what you think you know. I experienced it firsthand! LOL i dont need any one else's verification!

 

so that is where i am coming from. You are welcome to believe whatever you want about reality and what spiritually practiced humans are capable of. Just be aware that the more you believe that life is purely mundane, ordinary and normal, the more of the miracle you miss.

 

mundane ordinary and normal ..theres nothing wrong with those things , proven by objective means and the basis of rational thinking, the world has physical laws , deny them if you want, but that doesnt make your thought process rational.

I tried to walk away and leave you be, I dont need to add your beliefs to the list of my concerns

forget me , forget my rudeness if you will ,and proceed as if I was invisible.

Stosh

[konchog uma]

I dont recall that thread

 

thats why i posted the questions again for you. still no answer?

 

I said outnumbered rather than say you were intimidated as that seemed too rude as well.

 

couched presumptuousness is still presumptuous...

 

instead of saying that you were ridiculously gullible I chose the phrase 'wrong'.

 

couched insults are still insulting. You only make yourself look bad with that kind of talk. I am not gullible, nor am i wrong. I am talking about events from my life, which i remember clearly. This isn't an issue thats open to your judgements or prejudices about right and wrong. And you don't know me or anything about me like whether or not i am gullible lol, all you know is that i have experienced things that your (rather limited) worldview can't neatly incorporate.

 

mundane ordinary and normal ..theres nothing wrong with those things , proven by objective means and the basis of rational thinking, the world has physical laws , deny them if you want, but that doesnt make your thought process rational.

 

you forgot to quote a key word, "purely". I said that a person who thinks that life is purely mundane, basically lives in a small world. The real world is bigger than that, and is not purely ordinary. The physical laws of the world can be pushed, bent, and broken.

 

and who said rational?! not me! invisibility isn't rational! The world and the mystics that live within it are most certainly not purely rational, past a point they are entirely irrational, unreasonable, and laugh in the face of science. I am discussing things past that point, which rationality certainly does not apply to, and furthermore, i never claimed rationality, i claimed possibility. I have seen a lot of things that science can't explain, so i know what i believe about the limits of modern thinking. If you want to believe that nobody can become effectively invisible go ahead. If you want to believe that nobody can walk on coals, or that nobody can survive under icy water for half an hour, or that nothing mystical has ever happened, go right ahead. But it might be your loss. If my teacher, or the other masters of the human form who perform similar feats, limited themselves to the "objective means and rational thinking" of the science of the ordinary mundane man, they would not be able to accomplish what they had accomplished.

[Stosh]

If you think I am right, and 'real' invisibility ,

the invisibility which happens when light passes through solid objects (that are ordinarily opaque.)

Is impossible for humans to achieve.. We already agree on that

If you are pretending that throwing a blanket over your head makes you 'invisible'

Then we dont agree you are 'invisible'.

If you think folks are sometimes capable of extraordinary feats, we already agree

If you think some folks can break the physical laws of the universe (as described by science)

Then we do not agree.

If you think cabbages have conversations , we dont agree.

If you believe that one cabbage may react to events which happen to another cabbage because they are connected by mycelial (fungal) connections in the soil below ground . We agree already

If you believe that a central nervous system is necessary to support sophisticated thought structure. then we agree on that.

If you think you can continue as you are without one, we do not agree.

 

If there exists fundamental agreement between us on these subjects, that would be good to acknowlege.

If you want to keep running with a fantasy presentation of the world ...We just arent going to find common ground.

Stosh

[thelerner]

If you think I am right, and 'real' invisibility ,

the invisibility which happens when light passes through solid objects (that are ordinarily opaque.)

Is impossible for humans to achieve.. We already agree on that

If you are pretending that throwing a blanket over your head makes you 'invisible'

Then we dont agree you are 'invisible'.

If you think folks are sometimes capable of extraordinary feats, we already agree

If you think some folks can break the physical laws of the universe (as described by science)

Then we do not agree.

If you think cabbages have conversations , we dont agree.

If you believe that one cabbage may react to events which happen to another cabbage because they are connected by mycelial (fungal) connections in the soil below ground . We agree already

If you believe that a central nervous system is necessary to support sophisticated thought structure. then we agree on that.

If you think you can continue as you are without one, we do not agree.

 

If there exists fundamental agreement between us on these subjects, that would be good to acknowlege.

If you want to keep running with a fantasy presentation of the world ...We just arent going to find common ground.

Stosh

thinking about what is possible, is not knowing. Really what we're talking about it possibilities, 0 to 100, impossible to 'seen it, done it'.

 

People turning invisible to others..I've read accounts from people I trust that say its possible, certainly in the 'siddhi' range, and may or may not have to do with light passing through solid. Could well be other mechanisms at work. One person theorized it was projecting an outwards aura.

 

Cabbages talking to each other, doubtful, but let me ask this cucumber; Cucumber said only online.

 

 

The extreme isn't necessarily a fantasy world. Its rare, but inspiring and ripe with charlatans. I tend to think its best to keep ones mind open, but ones wallet closed.

[konchog uma]

If you want to keep running with a fantasy presentation of the world ...We just arent going to find common ground.

 

if you want to keep running your mouth and making rude comments, you are going to find yourself without many people to talk to.

 

Third time was the charm, but still no answers to my original questions. This conversation is over. Take the last word if you need it.

Edited June 22, 2012 by anamatva

[Marblehead]

No, this isn't the end of the thread discussion but hopefully it is the end of the personal disagreement between two of our members.

 

The theme of the thread, a concept within Taoist Philosophy, that is, becoming invisible, is an important one.

 

I have an old saying I don't share much anymore but still hold to it:

 

Happiness is being able to go anywhere in the world without causing harm or offending a single person.

 

This would be because we have learned to become invisible - to be able to go anywhere and remain unnoticed because we have done nothing to attract attention.

 

No, I don't believe the concept is referring to becoming physically invisible. I do not believe that is possible. In fact, I would even say that such is an impossibility. Yes, I have heard the stories. I do not accept them as being truth or fact.

 

So really what we are talking about is following a path where our virtue (Taoist virtue, not Confucian virtue) becomes so pure that we become invisible.

 

(No, I can't follow that here because I like to run my mouth about Taoist Philosophy and I really want to be noticed. Hehehe.)

[Informer]

Happiness is being able to go anywhere in the world without causing harm or offending a single person.

 

You probably don't say it much because maybe you realize how un-realistic it is?

 

Some places you go people will be offended by the color of your skin, or your language, or you hair-cut, or what you are wearing, what is that anything to do with you?

 

Say someone is prejudiced about people of your skin color, were you the cause of him being offended, or was it only him choosing to be offended?

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Marblehead]

You probably don't say it much because maybe you realize how un-realistic it is?

 

Some places you go people will be offended by the color of your skin, or your language, or you hair-cut, or what you are wearing, what is that anything to do with you?

 

Say someone is prejudiced about people of your skin color, were you the cause of him being offended, or was it only him choosing to be offended?

WoW! Totally unexpected response! Brought me right back to reality, didn't you?

[Informer]

A rare occasion.

[Informer]

Maybe if you changed it to not being offended by anyone wherever you go?

 

It still would be a task, but more plausible one imo.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Marblehead]

Maybe if you changed it to not being offended by anyone wherever you go?

 

It still would be a task, but more plausible one imo.

Hehehe. Naw, I will keep my illusion in its current form. Idealism ain't all that bad as long as we keep reality close at hand.

[Stosh]

if you want to keep running your mouth and making rude comments, you are going to find yourself without many people to talk to.

 

Third time was the charm, but still no answers to my original questions. This conversation is over. Take the last word if you need it.

 

Ok Ill take you up on that offer,

If I end up with few people to talk to , that would be Ok

There is a particular group that I want to find

The conventional and rational folks who dont believe in fantasy

The ones who will be intellectually honest

not because they have been pushed into a corner

but because they respect their own integrity.

I gave you the chance to come down to earth

on your own, without having to say at all that I changed your mind

You just want to argue that folks turn invisible.

I tried to bow out,

leave you to whatever you think already

You think that is a reason to become emboldened and push more.

So be it

, at least (I think )we agree here that this dispute is done .

Stosh

[Informer]

If everyone practiced to not take offense, then there would be non to take offense.

 

 

Which not taking offense is something we can all have control over, being offended is a choice you can make. Whether someone is offended or not is not a choice for you to make.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer