Qi-Gong Starting Point?

[Jordan]

I have been noticing everyone here talking about qi-gong, so I did a little research. I would really like to try it out but don't know where to start. Any recommendations for a student on a budget? How did you all get into it? Thanks.

[thelerner]

In college I read up on meditation and mysticism. I'd practice vispasana meditation. Later I did Aikido and they had various breathing exercises and meditation styles.

 

Gi gong interested me because it made such extravagant promises. I read Glenn Morris's 'Pathnotes of Ninja Grandmaster(bad tittle)' and its description of kundalini and meditative powers' interested me. I took a seminar with Mantak Chia when he was in town.

 

It did seem that the Healing Tao practices started where most practices ended. Instead of 'just' sitting they offered a world (too many?) of practices of movement and sound and opened chinese 5 element philosophy.

 

I started buying Michael Winn's Healing Tao tapes and Videos. I liked them, and eventually took a few live courses at Tao Mountain. I never got into his 5 animals Fundamental Video, but really like the practices and forms on his Fundamental II video. I also got into Minke's guided meditations CDs. Go to the US Healing Tao site and see if it connects.

 

Earlier thoughts of any powers or abilitites and even enlightenment have faded. I simply like the practice.

 

Live teachers are best. There are some good series out there. I think Michael Winns is one. I've heard good things about Ken Cohen's. People here can give you many more names and systems.

 

Yours

 

Michael

[Ryan McCoole]

[forestofsouls]

I have been noticing everyone here talking about qi-gong, so I did a little research. I would really like to try it out but don't know where to start. Any recommendations for a student on a budget? How did you all get into it? Thanks.

 

What are you aims? There are allegedly many types of qi gong. There is medical qi gong, Buddhist qi gong, taoist qi gong; qi gong for health, qi gong for healing, qi gong for spiritual attainment.

 

First, the general disclaimer. I don't think, and many would agree, that you can learn from a book. Books can present general information for everyone, yet everyone is different. They don't answer your questions, they cannot correct your posture. The worst thing I encountered with books was too much information. I wanted to try everything, instead of taking the time to patiently cultivate one or two things.

 

I learned through trial and experience that two components are necessary to any qi gong. You need to be able to relax as much as possible. I didn't understand this in the beginning, and I ended up hurting myself. The second thing is mental focus. It's too easy in qi gong, or anything else, to let the mind wander while the body moves. This will lead you nowhere.

 

If you cannot afford a teacher, I would encourage you to look up simple relaxation/mental concentration exercises on the internet. I think the best ones involve systematically going through your muscles and relaxing them. Other good exercises involve watching the natural breath.

 

By way of books, the best books that I've come across are:

 

1. The Art of Chi Kung by Wong Kiew Kit. This book is VERY simple. This is the best qi gong I could find personally, and the only qi gong I practice outside of my tai chi forms.

 

2. The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen. Standing still practice. You can get a feel fairly quickly for inner power. However, I stopped doing this when I started to practice Tai Chi. I have recently returned to standing practice only after having a lot of instruction and practice on the forms involved, and having had a lot of practice relaxing and focusing. Of course, when I first started this I did too much too quickly. Now, older and wiser, I'm proceeding more slowly.

 

3. Qigong Empowerment by Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu. This book gives a lot of information on qi gong. It more encyclopedic than practical. I wouldn't try to learn from this one.

 

Remember Sturgeon's Law applies to qi gong as well: 90% of everything is crud.

Edited November 20, 2006 by forestofsouls

[Ryan McCoole]

Exactly! Books, like everything else, are a *guide*for us: this is your path, Jordan, and lerning to relax and be open are the keys And, of course, have fun with it! One of the things I tend to do is get way to serious and down on myself when I think I'm not living up to some artficial 'standard' or another, but learning Balance will really speed you along your path.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Ryan McCoole

[GrandTrinity]

Hmmmmmmmmm best way to start?

 

Forget everything you know. Learn all the basics and treasure these... Where in the country are you? Get with the best teacher around, perhaps a Wu Dang teacher is best. I will record and upload a Tai Chi Chi Gong video for you (and the world) soon, this is the video Wu Dang Colorado advises us to start our training with.

 

Wu Dang in China advises us to start with 5 animals form (not combined with healing sounds as Winn does, but seperate.)

 

While Grandmaster Yuanming Zhang has us move/sound... like Wind and Water, also connect hand positions with heaven, Earth and humanity. Learn a couple good mudras... yall know.

[Jordan]

Thank you, everyone. I really appreciate the recommendations. I live in Northern California (about 2 hours away from the Oregon border) and I seriously doubt there are any respectable teachers within a hundred miles of me.

 

My main goal is to quiet my mind. I am a person who tries to rationalize and understand everything. I feel sometimes that I can't control my mind and thoughts. They completely overpower me anytime I try to meditate. I will not only be replaying songs in my head throughout the day (I am a drummer), but I will also have about three or four different thoughts rushing through my brain, making it very hard to concentrate on things such as meditation or relaxation.

 

I really need to do something, but it seems that everytime I try to quiet my mind, I lose complete control over what I am thinking. I feel like there is a constant torrent of thought that is extremely difficult to control. I try to focus on breathing, but it doesn't work. The worst part is, I understand the problem, but that doesn't help because then I think about it all the time.

 

I am going to look into all of your recommendations and find what I think suits me best. Thank you.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Jordan

[Cameron]

How far are you from the SF Bay Area? That is considered Northern California, yes? If your close there are quite a few excellent teachers over there like Fong Ha. Our webmaster Sean lives there too.

[Jordan]

That is what the kids call it these days, but it is about 4 hours north of the Bay Area. I live in Redding, about an hour north of Chico and about two hours south of Ashland, OR. I am sure there are great teachers in Ashland, but I don't have the time or money to commute.

[Cameron]

Oh, that's far. Not sure what you should do then. My personal favorite is Ken Cohen. He has an excellent Qigong program for beginners called The Essential Qigong Training Course that I think you can pick up on Amazon for about $60. That should keep you busy for awhile along with all the other books that have been reccommended to you. Check out a live teacher when available or the opportunity arises.

 

Cameron

[Ian]

 

 

My main goal is to quiet my mind. I am a person who tries to rationalize and understand everything. I feel sometimes that I can't control my mind and thoughts. They completely overpower me anytime I try to meditate. I will not only be replaying songs in my head throughout the day (I am a drummer), but I will also have about three or four different thoughts rushing through my brain, making it very hard to concentrate on things such as meditation or relaxation.

 

I really need to do something, but it seems that everytime I try to quiet my mind, I lose complete control over what I am thinking. I feel like there is a constant torrent of thought that is extremely difficult to control. I try to focus on breathing, but it doesn't work. The worst part is, I understand the problem, but that doesn't help because then I think about it all the time.

 

 

Starting meditation is like trying to stop a speeding truck by standing in front of it with your hand out.

 

You won't be able to make any appreciable difference to the amount and ferocity of your thought for some considerable time. What you can do is gradually deposit more of your attention into sensation. This gives you a place to be, from which you can view thought instead of being it. Gradually.

 

Give yourself a break. It's all quite normal.

[forestofsouls]

Grand,

 

What's the deal with this wudang group? What form do they practice? Do they do push hands?

 

I'm moving to Cheyenne in a few months and need to find some competant tai chi people since I won't be around my school for a while. There are a few Tai Chi schools in CO, and WuDang caught my eye.

 

Starting meditation is like trying to stop a speeding truck by standing in front of it with your hand out.

 

One of my first meditation books was "Mindfulness in Plain English." Bhante G described it as having this huge granite wall and this little chisel. You chip, chip, chip. Eventually, parts of the wall begin to fall away.

 

Larry Rosenberg described anapanba (breath meditation) like this: Focus on the breath. When your mind wanders, gently return to the breath. Repeat 1,000,000,000 times.

Edited November 21, 2006 by forestofsouls

[thaddeus]

I will not only be replaying songs in my head throughout the day (I am a drummer), but I will also have about three or four different thoughts rushing through my brain, making it very hard to concentrate on things such as meditation or relaxation.

I've always admired drummers. I'm curious about something though, when you are drumming, what would happen if your mind wandered and you started thinking about a problem you were having yesterday? Isn't drumming about experiencing the moment..no thought, if you will..

I don't really know, just guessing that perhaps you may already have found your practice..it's about allowing, just being. You don't need to keep adding more practices and collecting exercises. Use your drumming to wake up.

T

[Yoda]

if you are on a budget, the advancedyogapractices.com book and follow up support is free and is by far the best 'big picture' presentation of the meditation and energy cultivation paths that I have found in 20 years of digging.

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[VCraigP]

I've always admired drummers. I'm curious about something though, when you are drumming, what would happen if your mind wandered and you started thinking about a problem you were having yesterday? Isn't drumming about experiencing the moment..no thought, if you will..

I don't really know, just guessing that perhaps you may already have found your practice..it's about allowing, just being. You don't need to keep adding more practices and collecting exercises. Use your drumming to wake up.

T

 

I agree with Thaddeus. You are a drummer. You have a practice which requires full concentration, ie one pointedness. Quieting the mind is such an accomplishment and such a simple concept that many gloss over the topic too easily. Meditation first is about narrowing your focus. Your mind will wander, you gently bring yourself back to the single point of focus.

 

When I was a beginner I realized that many of the things I was involved with had a common theme. Martial arts, meditation, music (no the common theme was not the letter M :-) ) They all require total focus in order to refine and improve the practice.

 

Maybe you could try sitting and meditating while playing in your mind a simple 4/4 beat, like a shamanic drum beat, over and over. Or you could even sit and drum such a simple beat and just put your mind there. Do that for 10 15 30 minutes and then see if you are in a different state. That is simple meditation. Just bring your attention back to the focus point whenever the mind wanders.

 

What chikung to practice. I agree that simpler is better (please ignore recent post of mine listing the laundry list of complex practices I know!) You could go far using my teacher Master Zhongxian Wu's beginning practice. We start all practice by gentle shaking, bouncing up and down side to side, rhythmically for 20-30 minutes at a time. Focusing on letting tension dissolve into the earth, opening the crown to connect to heavenly energy, and most importantly breathing down with the Hunnnh sound to vibrate in the lower tantien. After which we stand still and focus on collecting everything from all directions into the tantien while breathing in and concentrating the energy ball in the center when breathing out.

This practice is almost as simple as you can get, but it is PLENTY to take in and in my opinion could take you a long way.

 

Portland Oregon is not too near you, yet it is not too far either. We had a student in Master Wu's class who was coming up twice a week from Eugene to Portland to study with Master Wu. I myself drive one hour each way once a week or more for my practice. It is a matter of priorities of course. I am not saying this is your solution, only that this is a small but profound piece which I got from my current primary teacher which is great for understanding and entering the chikung state. You could attend one class and get the basic idea and then take that home to practice after having experienced it first hand.

 

For a beginner I think it would be great to pick one simple piece and just work with it, without being concerned about taking on an entire "system", but just to open the door a crack into the big world of chikung/yoga energy art systems to have a look for yourself.

 

Experience is the only way to know anything here. Intellect will not do it for you.

Getting in the chi field of a master idealy accompanied by experienced students is a powerful way to experience the chi field.

 

Anyway, enough proselytizing for Master Wu.

 

Just what occured to me in the moment.

 

Craig

[Jordan]

Again, thank you for your thoughts and recommendations. When I am drumming (depending on what I am drumming), my mind does wander. If I have played a specific piece numerous times, it is almost second nature to repeat it without really thinking about it. Drumming is all about musle memory.

 

After reading Craig's post, I realized the connection between drumming and meditation. They basically go hand in hand. I use a technique when I drum commonly referred to as the "Moeller Method" in which the stick does all of the work and the hand merely guides it where it wants to go. Many drummers can have very serious wrist/forearm injuries caused by bad technique, which I definitely don't want. The Moeller Method uses the least amount of resistance and really lets the stick do what it wants: rebound. It's really very amazing.

 

I am going to try to apply this same philosophy to my meditation and incorporate drumming whenever possible, even if it is just with my hands and the carpet. Drumming can be a very soothing practice, especially when done correctly. Just think of all of the ancient cultures who have used drumming to express themselves in so many different contexts and situations. I truly believe that drumming can be a very spiritual act, so I might as well embrace it. I can focus on how my hands feel when I am drumming; the possibilities are endless.

 

Thank you, everyone, I am going to keep chipping away at that wall...

Edited November 22, 2006 by Jordan

[hagar]

Jordan

 

I second all good advice already mentioned here.

Just wanted to share an insight I had while being a student and being on a budget.

 

Fortunately, I was blessed with finding a wonderful teacher right from the start of my qigong practice.

I did about 2 years of Tai Chi before I found myself more interested in the warmup qigong routine than the actual Tai Chi.

 

When I first met my master, the qigong I practiced for those 2 previous years seemed like driving a Go-cart compared to finally being able to fly a fighter-jet. It was that huge of a difference. Most of it comes from getting true transmission.

So my advice is to not spend alot of money on trying out a lot of different video/dvd/book regimens, which may give you some benefit. Instead, do alot of research and look for a true Master. (If you have the good karma to find one that is not at the other side of the world.) Spend your time saving up money to see this person on a retreat of two a year, and spend the rest of your time practicing what you are taught. After a while, the experience you gain from this kind of encounter will make books and other sources either superflous or much more interesting.

 

Finally, it is not my intention to say that one should make oneself dependent on a master of teacher. But they hold the key to a fruitful practice. After a while, the need for a master is not there anymore, because you have found it within.

 

Then again, being on a budget can mean many things. So don't take my advice too literal.

 

h

[Pietro]

Again, thank you for your thoughts and recommendations. When I am drumming (depending on what I am drumming), my mind does wander. If I have played a specific piece numerous times, it is almost second nature to repeat it without really thinking about it. Drumming is all about musle memory.

 

 

I remember a friend of mine. And old women into neo paganism. She told me a rithm that was used to keep the mind from wandering. I found it to work at the beginning, then eventually even that becomes automatic.

 

In any case the rythm was:

left, right, left, left, right, left, right, right,

left, right, left, left, right, left, right, right,

left, right, left, left, right, left, right, right,

left, right, left, left, right, left, right, right,

left, right, left, left, right, left, right, right, ...

 

All following a simple basic rythm.

 

Oh, btw, one pointed concentration, keeping the mind from wandering, continuous concentration (which is what you might develop with those exercises) is not meditation. Just a prerequisite. Like, you need to take off your clothes to take a bath. But taking of your clothes is not taking a bath. You still need to do something else.

[Wayfarer64]

I have found a basis in Hatha Yoga goes a long way to bring the breath-movement coordination into focus. It is easily accessed from videos and there are many teachers available around the country. I can not think of a more user-friendly system for one's first attempt to coordinate breathing with movement. It has been the basis of all of my qi-gong and I am eternally grateful that I started with Hatha Yoga when I was a teenager. It made everything else that followed much easier to adopt and adapt to...

[Ian]

 

a very good way is what Ian said - thoughts are gonna be there, dont worry about it and instead use your attention to concentrate on the sensations of your body......

 

Another approach is the rather modern western approach - it's about concentrating on the nature of your thoughts. Rather than getting involved in the content of a thought, you learn to notice how it is represented in your mind...

 

....... the main point is that you learn the building blocks of thoughts, you gain an understanding of the context and you will learn to change how it all works. It's like hacking the code that controls your thoughts. This method is much faster than the one above - because the one above was really designed for people who lived thousands of years ago and in a much simpler way.

 

 

I don't wish to seem like I'm trying to set up a "My way is better than yours" discussion, because I haven't tried the method you outline, so I'm not qualified to comment.

 

But I would like to mention that the method I suggested, in addition to being slower, does have the benefit of taking the practitioner into the reality of their body and can lead to purification of the actual physical areas where the emotions that cause the thoughts are stored.

 

Can you say more about the long term benefits of the method you describe? How are you now in relation to your thoughts? How long/often have you practiced it?

 

Many thanks

I

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Jordan]

I remember a friend of mine. And old women into neo paganism. She told me a rithm that was used to keep the mind from wandering. I found it to work at the beginning, then eventually even that becomes automatic.

 

In any case the rythm was:

left, right, left, left, right, left, right, right, ...

 

 

That is called a "paradiddle" (for the pattern - pair-uh-did-dul left-right-left-left). Unfortunately, that is already something that I can do without thinking. However, it is a good pattern that is rhythmic, but not overly repetitive. There is a little more advanced version known as the "paradiddlediddle" which goes:

 

R, L, R, R, L, L...

 

I prefer the paradiddle because it is revolving (it starts with the right the first time, but the left the second).

The point of all of these patterns is to play them without missing a beat, there is no pause between cycles. It is probably a little confusing for non-drummers to understand. Try this with the paradiddle. Count the measure outloud:

 

"One and Two and Three and Four and..."

 

Then tap your fingers on each word in the pattern. It will probably take some time to get it, but it is fun to play.

[Ian]

This is an interesting point - and I have a slightly different point of view on this... I think the traumas on the physical level are definately not the 'cause' of thoughts. It's more like a partnership - if you feel depressed you might sulk and drop your shoulders - if you sulk for long enough you'll feel depressed.

 

I actually think that most traumas in our western society originate in the mind!

 

I think we agree more than we think we do, although there may be some points we can't resolve.

 

The model that I'm using holds that our ideal/original state is one of complete embodiment. That any abstract thought projects attention out of the body into the past or the future. This creates a vacancy within the body in which squatters (i.e. unprocessed emotional patterns) can take up residence.

 

So I don't really have a problem with talking about a mental origin for bodily impurities.

 

In my model, your process is akin to becoming aware that the squatters' continual shouting is actually unreal nonsense that can be ignored, or heard without being affected thereby, and the one I mentioned actually turfs them out, albeit very slowly.

 

I know I get called a masochist when I claim that the only way out of trauma is through, and that one needs to physically experience every negative, with detachment, to actually be shot of it.

 

I can't justify this opinion except that several teachers I really trust say it is so.

 

P.S. Love the "slightly" - you so polite!!

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform