empty / full

[samwardell]

There is little worse in the world than a new member of a forum who is too impatient to look through the archives and dives straight in with their own brand new topic. I guess I'm about to become a part of that darkness...

 

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the following:

 

Daodejing ch 4 [trans Lynn]: The vessel of the Dao is empty, so use it but do not try to

refill it.

 

Daodejing ch 45: Great completion seems incomplete, but its [the Dao's] functioning is

never exhausted. Great fullness seems empty, but its functioning is

limitless

 

Also in the Zhuangzi ch 2 [trans Palmer]: Pour into it [Dao] and it is full; empty it

and it is never empty.

 

Wang Bi's commentry on the Daodejing:

 

ch 4: Used as an empty vessel, its [the Dao's] use is

inexhaustible, but if one tries to fill it in order to make it into

something full, if any filling is brought to it, it just overflows ...

for what makes it inexhaustible already fills it completely.

 

ch 45: Great fullness is filled with emptiness. Because it [the Dao]

provides for things as they come along, none get treated with special

consideration, thus "it seems empty".

 

Of all the various 'descriptions' of the Dao, I find this theme of empty/full and its relation to 'function' or 'use' the hardest to grasp.

[gatito]

You might find this interesting.

 

http://www.headless.org/forum-archive/intro.html

[Marblehead]

Anything that is empty of one thing will be full of something else.

 

Hopefully our vessel will be full of things like compassion, conservativism, and humility (the Three Treasures).

[gatito]

The named is the mother of the ten thousand things (although its nature is satchitananda)

Edited June 13, 2012 by gatito

[dwai]

There is little worse in the world than a new member of a forum who is too impatient to look through the archives and dives straight in with their own brand new topic. I guess I'm about to become a part of that darkness...

 

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the following:

 

Daodejing ch 4 [trans Lynn]: The vessel of the Dao is empty, so use it but do not try to

refill it.

 

Daodejing ch 45: Great completion seems incomplete, but its [the Dao's] functioning is

never exhausted. Great fullness seems empty, but its functioning is

limitless

 

Also in the Zhuangzi ch 2 [trans Palmer]: Pour into it [Dao] and it is full; empty it

and it is never empty.

 

Wang Bi's commentry on the Daodejing:

 

ch 4: Used as an empty vessel, its [the Dao's] use is

inexhaustible, but if one tries to fill it in order to make it into

something full, if any filling is brought to it, it just overflows ...

for what makes it inexhaustible already fills it completely.

 

ch 45: Great fullness is filled with emptiness. Because it [the Dao]

provides for things as they come along, none get treated with special

consideration, thus "it seems empty".

 

Of all the various 'descriptions' of the Dao, I find this theme of empty/full and its relation to 'function' or 'use' the hardest to grasp.

 

My teacher gave s the analogy of a room and its function. Its function is to house people and/or things. Its function is only possible because it is empty. If it were not empty nothing can be stored in it. At the mundane level thats how it works.

 

To consider it a bt more, emptiness is the potential where functions may arise.

[Brian]

Imagine a magical chalice beer glass* which, if you pour water beer into it, it quickly fills but if you pour water beer out of it, it never empties. Pour out a hundred gallons and it isn't empty -- pour a pint back in and it overflows. My understanding of Tao includes something like that.

 

 

* I like good beer...

 

 

EDIT: An afterthought -- an infinitely long funnel has a finite volume but an infinite surface area. The paint that would fill it cannot paint it.

Edited June 13, 2012 by A Seeker

[gatito]

My teacher gave s the analogy of a room and its function. Its function is to house people and/or things. Its function is only possible because it is empty. If it were not empty nothing can be stored in it. At the mundane level thats how it works.

 

To consider it a bt more, emptiness is the potential where functions may arise.

 

Yes.

 

And the sticking point is usually to conceptualise it as a container.

 

Greg Goode deconstructs this very elegantly in his teachings (where he refers to it as the "container metaphor": -

 

http://www.heartofnow.com/

Edited June 13, 2012 by gatito

[zerostao]

"Of all the various 'descriptions' of the Dao, I find this theme of empty/full and its relation to 'function' or 'use' the hardest to grasp."

ponder and wander along your path softly and sincerely and i reckon it will come to you.

[Jeff]

If you quiet (or empty) your mind, the statements make more sense...

 

[ChiDragon]

 

ch 45: Great fullness is filled with emptiness. Because it [the Dao]

provides for things as they come along, none get treated with special

consideration, thus "it seems empty".

 

 

Of all the various 'descriptions' of the Dao, I find this theme of empty/full and its relation to 'function' or 'use' the hardest to grasp.

 

Let's see is this translation does you any good....???

Chapter 45 Serenity and Calmness are the norms

Translation in terse English:

1. Most perfection seems lacking,

2. Its function is endless.

3. Most reality seems vacuous,

4. Its function is inexhaustible.

5. Most straightness seems crooked,

6. Most skillful seems inept.

7. Most eloquence seems stuttered.

8. Calmness beats testy.

9. Coldness beats heat.

10. Serenity and calmness are the norm for all people.

[ChiDragon]

Wang Bi's commentry on the Daodejing:

 

ch 4: Used as an empty vessel, its [the Dao's] use is

inexhaustible, but if one tries to fill it in order to make it into

something full, if any filling is brought to it, it just overflows ...

for what makes it inexhaustible already fills it completely.

 

Of all the various 'descriptions' of the Dao, I find this theme of empty/full and its relation to 'function' or 'use' the hardest to grasp.

 

Another translation of Chapter 4.....

Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.

1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible.

2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.

3. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.

4. I don't know whose son he is,

5. It seems like before the heavenly god.

[Taomeow]

For me, the best and most reliable way to grasp any taoist philosophical concepts is through practice. In taiji we differentiate between "empty and full" empirically. This is easier to get for the body and then communicate to the mind. The body does it and then the mind goes, aha, OK, got it. When taoist ideas are involved, if you just limit them to the head, they are going to be only shadows of themselves. Taoist ideas are systemic, to be grasped by the totality of you, not just by your mind.

 

In taiji, when you distribute your body weight between your legs and, say, place 99% on one leg and 1% on the other (just touching the floor but not committing any weight to that foot), the leg you are keeping light is called "empty." This "emptiness" means readiness for anything. You can use the "full leg" as your foundation and move to redirect or kick with the "empty" one in any direction, it is not committed to a particular task and a particular destination, so it can go anywhere -- fast. "Emptiness" provides opennes to action, freedom of movement, and lightness that is the foundation of speed, spontaneity, and creativity. You can do anything with your "empty" leg but your "full" one is committed to doing what it's doing, what it's "full" of -- supporting your weight, rooting, accumulating force. Force is accumulated in the "full" but released through the "empty." (This was vehemently argued against the other day by a novice in my taiji class who has extensive hard MA experience. He wanted to commit weight to the "empty" foot in front before punching, and refused to believe that you can -- and should -- transfer the impulse from the full leg in the back to the punching arm and still keep the empty leg empty. Because, you know, you might need to use it in the next split second, why burden it by "filling it up?" He refuses to believe it though. He'll learn... )

 

When they talk about the "empty force" (which "skeptics" love to hate) in taiji, it's basically the continuation of the same skill of differentiating between "empty" and "full" perfected by long practice and taken to a level that appears miraculous to some and fake to others. But it's actually neither. It's just top level "emptying skill" that is no longer limited to the body and takes over the mind. That's why there's no top level taiji without top level meditation skills, and there's no top level meditation skills limited to the head, the "intent" and whatever. An "empty mind" can't be quite empty if the body doesn't know how to do it, doesn't know lightness and emptiness. And vice versa.

[Marblehead]

For me, the best and most reliable way to grasp any taoist philosophical concepts is through practice.

I too am a bit like this.

 

I will take a concept and test it against physical reality. And this is why I accepted Taoist Philosophy as my guide in life. The concepts in Taoism stand the tests more often than any other belief system I have studied.

[Brian]

I too am a bit like this.

 

I will take a concept and test it against physical reality. And this is why I accepted Taoist Philosophy as my guide in life. The concepts in Taoism stand the tests more often than any other belief system I have studied.

 

I believe there is much truth in this, Marblehead, and I've been following a similar path for more than 30 years now (with lots of detours, sidetracks and aimless ramblings along the way...)

[gatito]

I believe there is much truth in this, Marblehead, and I've been following a similar path for more than 30 years now (with lots of detours, sidetracks and aimless ramblings along the way...)

 

I resonate deeply with this.

[zerostao]

"The concepts in Taoism stand the tests more often than any other belief system I have studied."

even taking the belief out of it and just approaching with an unbiased and open mind

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead, A Seeker, gatito and Zerostao...

 

Now, you guys are talking like a philosopher and I am glad that you all are...

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In taiji, when you distribute your body weight between your legs and, say, place 99% on one leg and 1% on the other (just touching the floor but not committing any weight to that foot), the leg you are keeping light is called "empty." This "emptiness" means readiness for anything. You can use the "full leg" as your foundation and move to redirect or kick with the "empty" one in any direction, it is not committed to a particular task and a particular destination, so it can go anywhere -- fast.He'll learn... )

 

Wow! We meet again....

 

I love to hear someone express this fine art explicitly in finest details. That will show the person has a full comprehension of the fundamental concepts. The only thing I would like to comment are the terms being used here.

 

The terms of 'emptiness' and 'full' vs 'hollow' and 'solid'. In native terms, they are 虛實.

 

虛(xu1): hollow, which is the Yin attribute

實(shi2): solid, which is the Yang attribute.

 

The amount of the weight touching the ground by the foot was expressed in hollowness and solidness.

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[gatito]

Marblehead, A Seeker, gatito and Zerostao...

 

Now, you guys are talking like a philosopher and I am glad that you all are...

 

Let's hope we can keep it up.

[samwardell]

Thank you all so much.

 

It is not so much the full/empty paradox that I find hard. My own preference is to interpret it as Wang Bi does as the Dao being "full of emptiness" (comment ddj ch 45.1). Rather it is the link with 'function' that I find puzzling.

 

I found Taomeow's link to MA very elegant; but it makes me a little itchy to interpret a text in the light of a significantly later practice. That is not to say that there is not deep wisdom and insight to be found in taiji; merely that I remain a little sceptical about using it as a lens to understand the daodejing. It strikes me the text is looking to something deeper and broader.

 

Anyhow, lot of wisdom's been thrown my way. Will be taking some time to ponder. As things stand I feel a bit like the Yellow River meeting Lord Jo of the Ocean...

[Taomeow]

Thank you all so much.

 

It is not so much the full/empty paradox that I find hard. My own preference is to interpret it as Wang Bi does as the Dao being "full of emptiness" (comment ddj ch 45.1). Rather it is the link with 'function' that I find puzzling.

 

I found Taomeow's link to MA very elegant; but it makes me a little itchy to interpret a text in the light of a significantly later practice. That is not to say that there is not deep wisdom and insight to be found in taiji; merely that I remain a little sceptical about using it as a lens to understand the daodejing. It strikes me the text is looking to something deeper and broader.

 

Anyhow, lot of wisdom's been thrown my way. Will be taking some time to ponder. As things stand I feel a bit like the Yellow River meeting Lord Jo of the Ocean...

 

You are doing fine, Yellow River.

 

However, don't take obsolete armchair researchers' word for what went before what. Didn't they find clay tablets depicting taiji and qigong sequences predating Laozi by some 4,000 years? If I uproot the bookmark, I'll post a picture.

 

I've always read Laozi's Chapter 15 as a set of taiji instructions. I actually use it. "Careful, as if stepping on thin/melting ice" -- try stepping like that instead of thinking about it, and you might discover what "empty" is. (You can't plump any weight on thin/slippery/melting ice, you have to suspend all assumptions about its ability to support you, and yet take a step forward -- without such assumptions. This does things to your mind you can't possibly read into it from a book -- you have to use it like that. Laozi's was a pragmatic age and taoism is a pragmatic philosophy and China is a pragmatic civilization which hasn't given the world a single armchair philosopher, kudos to it. )

[Brian]

"The concepts in Taoism stand the tests more often than any other belief system I have studied."

even taking the belief out of it and just approaching with an unbiased and open mind

 

Yes, but remember -- you only believe that you are approaching it with an unbiased and open mind. This is indeed a noble goal but beware of unspoken assumptions.

[Brian]

Marblehead, A Seeker, gatito and Zerostao...

 

Now, you guys are talking like a philosopher and I am glad that you all are...

 

Thank you, kind sir! <bow>

 

 

I am a natural philosopher...

 

An aside: Physicists and philosophers have much in common and I have spent many an hour (I'd be embarassed to tally them up, I think) hoisting pints with both over the years. In my personal experience, a philosopher tends to enjoy quicksand while a physicist tends to put up a sign that says "quicksand" and then continue exploring.

 

For instance, the philosopher and the physicist both learn that a chair may only be a chair when it is being observed and both the sophomoric philosopher and the sophomoric physicist will struggle mightily with this until they wrap their heads around it (or they shy away from it and never come to more than a superficial understanding). Assuming aptitude, hard work and patience, however, both can assimilate this into their understanding of reality. The philosopher might then spend an entire lifetime delving into the consequences and deeper meaning of that realization while the physicist is likely to sit in the chair and grind through some math.

 

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain. Then there is.

[ChiDragon]

Here is what I was told by my engineering instructor...

A chemist wash the hands before visiting the restroom. A physicist wash the hands after visiting the restroom.

[Marblehead]

A chemist wash the hands before visiting the restroom. A physicist wash the hands after visiting the restroom.

And Marines don't have to wash after because they don't pee on their hands.