Tai Ji Sparring

[ChiDragon]

[Taomeow]

This is not taiji and this is not sparring. This is a two-person form. Choreography, gymnastics...

 

And here's the real thing -- notice the non-breaking of contact with the partner (remember stick-adhere-follow? )

 

 

And here's some nice authentication -- a different style (Wu) but identical principles. Possibly the earliest Wu style video (from 1937, before "wushu" and the post-maoist selling of taijiquan-flavored "sports" and shows to China and the world) -- watch it between 3:40 and 4:55

 

[mYTHmAKER]

This is not taiji and this is not sparring. This is a two-person form. Choreography, gymnastics, a bit of kung fu...

 

and not song - to stiff

[ChiDragon]

This is not taiji and this is not sparring. This is a two-person form. Choreography, gymnastics...

 

And here's the real thing -- notice the non-breaking of contact with the partner (remember stick-adhere-follow? )

 

 

The non-breaking of contact is the two masters are practicing high level of push hand(Tui Shou). Push hand was to prepare for sparring. Sparring initially was non-body contact. It would be like the opponent was charging at the partner from a distance. The partner will be using the push hand skill(stick-adhere-follow) to counteract the charging body or force. The first contact of impact was the 'stick', then the hold or stay in contact is the 'adhere', then 'follow' it through.

 

Sparring was a preparation to counteract other martial art styles in a non-contact situation.

 

PS...

Sorry, couldn't finish watching the second old video. It hung up my computer.....

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

and not song - to stiff

 

How long have you been practicing Tai Ji Chuan....???

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

How long have you been practicing Tai Ji Chuan....???

 

long enough to know they are not relaxed flowing

[ChiDragon]

long enough to know they are not relaxed flowing

Perhaps not long enough to know when to be relaxed or when is not....

 

 

 

Sorry, just couldn't help it not to put some humor into this one. No offense...

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

Perhaps not long enough to know when to be relaxed or when is not....

 

 

 

Sorry, just couldn't help it not to put some humor into this one. No offense...

 

Well, let me try breaking down what Mythmaker is talking about.

 

The guys in the video look like what they are, external practitioners, with much body conditioning for external hard performances. In terms of taiji, this is what is wrong with the picture (amounting to the total absence of sung ):

 

locked pinched kua, no bridge between the legs, no stability and balance, no hip flexibility;

no emptying of the chest and no filling of the back, mingmen locked, no pivoting in the yao, stiff waist;

stiff shoulders, raised instead of dropped every time they move their arms, with locked joints, hence no transference of force through the back, no transference to the arm from the leg, no coordination between leg and arm movements;

no suspension of head "on a thread from heaven," locked stiff neck;

no sensitivity, no speed, no "borrowing" (each one uses his own force and is completely unable to use that of the opponent instead of squandering his own);

 

and on and on. They are using li and have no cultivated qi at all -- all the qi they have is that of youthful vigor, but as we know from ALL sports (and what they demo is most definitely a sport), this serves a sports-man/woman for a very short time and then the structure they have created (hard muscles, soft bones, depleted internal organs and glands, faltering nervous system, in other words a qi-deficient and/or entangled-qi bodymind) starts taking its toll. But it would take its toll right now if either one of them had to spar with a real taiji master. I've seen it so many times, ChiDragon. A hard MA dude or dudette shows up from time to time to check out my teacher. After ONE lesson of a few seconds they LEARN. Maybe you want to come visit, find out what taiji and taiji sparring is and isn't in a hands-on empirical fashion?.. 'cause no matter how many years you practice, if you don't practice correctly... um...

[ChiDragon]

umm.....Too much theory and still bias.

 

All the developmental stuffs were done in the fundamental stage. During sparring, they are moving dynamically, how can one expect their muscles to be 'sung' unless their are standing still. Please don't give me the expression that one has to be sung at the moment of Fa Jin. Sung is a Yin state, there is time to be not being sung which is the Yang state. When Tai Ji is in motion, the Yin and Yang states are always present. The way you people are describing was to remain at the Yin state at all times. The sung state is very important for a novice but please don't get that stuck in your mind all the time.

 

One should felt some Jin in the muscles even when one is at the sung state. Otherwise, one will collapse on the ground.

[Taomeow]

umm.....Too much theory and still bias.

 

All the developmental stuffs were done in the fundamental stage. During sparring, they are moving dynamically, how can one expect their muscles to be 'sung' unless their are standing still. Please don't give me the expression that one has to be sung at the moment of Fa Jin. Sung is a Yin state, there is time to be not being sung which is the Yang state. When Tai Ji is in motion, the Yin and Yang states are always present. The way you people are describing was to remain at the Yin state at all times. The sung state is very important for a novice but please don't get that stuck in your mind all the time.

 

One should felt some Jin in the muscles even when one is at the sung state. Otherwise, one will collapse on the ground.

 

An invitation to a hands-on empirical lesson is theory? And bias?

 

The technique you are continuously using is "blame for what they didn't do, change the subject." This technique is known as bait-and-switch. It is used in dishonest politics and manipulative sales, e.g., but it is not used in taiji.

 

Nor in decent online discussions of taiji.

[dwai]

Well, let me try breaking down what Mythmaker is talking about.

 

The guys in the video look like what they are, external practitioners, with much body conditioning for external hard performances. In terms of taiji, this is what is wrong with the picture (amounting to the total absence of sung ):

 

locked pinched kua, no bridge between the legs, no stability and balance, no hip flexibility;

no emptying of the chest and no filling of the back, mingmen locked, no pivoting in the yao, stiff waist;

stiff shoulders, raised instead of dropped every time they move their arms, with locked joints, hence no transference of force through the back, no transference to the arm from the leg, no coordination between leg and arm movements;

no suspension of head "on a thread from heaven," locked stiff neck;

no sensitivity, no speed, no "borrowing" (each one uses his own force and is completely unable to use that of the opponent instead of squandering his own);

 

and on and on. They are using li and have no cultivated qi at all -- all the qi they have is that of youthful vigor, but as we know from ALL sports (and what they demo is most definitely a sport), this serves a sports-man/woman for a very short time and then the structure they have created (hard muscles, soft bones, depleted internal organs and glands, faltering nervous system, in other words a qi-deficient and/or entangled-qi bodymind) starts taking its toll. But it would take its toll right now if either one of them had to spar with a real taiji master. I've seen it so many times, ChiDragon. A hard MA dude or dudette shows up from time to time to check out my teacher. After ONE lesson of a few seconds they LEARN. Maybe you want to come visit, find out what taiji and taiji sparring is and isn't in a hands-on empirical fashion?.. 'cause no matter how many years you practice, if you don't practice correctly... um...

The asian guy seemed to be more relaxed than the other guy....that being said, i think chidragon thinks sung means wet noodle. Therein lies the root of hs misunderstanding, imho.

 

I hate to be an armchair critic however, and ony way to really know (personally) is to play with them myself...

[mYTHmAKER]

Well, let me try breaking down what Mythmaker is talking about.

 

The guys in the video look like what they are, external practitioners, with much body conditioning for external hard performances. In terms of taiji, this is what is wrong with the picture (amounting to the total absence of sung ):

 

locked pinched kua, no bridge between the legs, no stability and balance, no hip flexibility;

no emptying of the chest and no filling of the back, mingmen locked, no pivoting in the yao, stiff waist;

stiff shoulders, raised instead of dropped every time they move their arms, with locked joints, hence no transference of force through the back, no transference to the arm from the leg, no coordination between leg and arm movements;

no suspension of head "on a thread from heaven," locked stiff neck;

no sensitivity, no speed, no "borrowing" (each one uses his own force and is completely unable to use that of the opponent instead of squandering his own);

 

and on and on. They are using li and have no cultivated qi at all -- all the qi they have is that of youthful vigor, but as we know from ALL sports (and what they demo is most definitely a sport), this serves a sports-man/woman for a very short time and then the structure they have created (hard muscles, soft bones, depleted internal organs and glands, faltering nervous system, in other words a qi-deficient and/or entangled-qi bodymind) starts taking its toll. But it would take its toll right now if either one of them had to spar with a real taiji master. I've seen it so many times, ChiDragon. A hard MA dude or dudette shows up from time to time to check out my teacher. After ONE lesson of a few seconds they LEARN. Maybe you want to come visit, find out what taiji and taiji sparring is and isn't in a hands-on empirical fashion?.. 'cause no matter how many years you practice, if you don't practice correctly... um...

 

Thanks TM as you might have already guessed i am not a man of many words

[ChiDragon]

The asian guy seemed to be more relaxed than the other guy....that being said, i think chidragon thinks sung means wet noodle. Therein lies the root of hs misunderstanding, imho.

 

I hate to be an armchair critic however, and ony way to really know (personally) is to play with them myself...

I have never heard what you said sung was, may I hear it from you what it is besides wet noodle...???

[mYTHmAKER]

umm.....Too much theory and still bias.

 

All the developmental stuffs were done in the fundamental stage. During sparring, they are moving dynamically, how can one expect their muscles to be 'sung' unless their are standing still. Please don't give me the expression that one has to be sung at the moment of Fa Jin. Sung is a Yin state, there is time to be not being sung which is the Yang state. When Tai Ji is in motion, the Yin and Yang states are always present. The way you people are describing was to remain at the Yin state at all times. The sung state is very important for a novice but please don't get that stuck in your mind all the time.

 

One should felt some Jin in the muscles even when one is at the sung state. Otherwise, one will collapse on the ground.

 

When one is sung there is no tension- one is relaxed NOT LIMP. To be relaxed in this manner is to have ones muscles supporting with minimum effort. When on is song there is flowing movement - smooth - faster reaction time. One must also be sung mentally.

You cannot be sung if you are in your head - you have to be in your tantien. If your mind is rigid it will translate into your body and the way you carry yourself.

One can think they are sung if they play by themselves, however, the first sign of confrontation or interaction with others goodbye song - hello stiffness. Like the holy man who thinks he is in a high state - comes down from the mountain and someone steps on his foot and he gets pissed off. Whew words words words

[ChiDragon]

One can think they are sung if they play by themselves, however, the first sign of confrontation or interaction with others goodbye song - hello stiffness.

 

In your thinking that, eventually, "hello stiffness" will take place during motion...!!! That's all I wanted to be assured from you....

[Taomeow]

In your thinking that, eventually, "hello stiffness" will take place during motion...!!! That's all I wanted to be assured from you....

 

Since Mythmaker is a man of few words (of at least fewer than me online ), I will spell out what he meant once again.

 

He means that when you don't practice with a partner of matching or higher skill level, you may think your taiji is sung. Once you spar with a partner, you discover that you stiffen -- or rather he or she discovers where you stiffen (which he or she immediately will if his or her skill is superior to yours) -- and uses this force of yours against you the taiji way (borrow, redirect, lure, etc.). You seem to operate under the impression that you are supposed to be relaxed until you apply force, and then you are supposed to stiffen. This is not taiji, and this is not efficient against taiji no matter what stiff art you have and how you apply it. Nothing stiff is efficient against high level taiji. Only higher level taiji or another internal art is efficient against high level taiji. You never stiffen in taiji. Ever. Period. Nor are you ever limp. Ever. Period. And it's not in between either. Sung is as different from both hard and limp as fluency in English is different from fluency in carpentry and embroidery.

 

You can't turn any theory into sung. You can't learn sung from a dictionary. Your body has to learn it from a real teacher, your mind has to get a clue as the outcome, and then your practice has to perfect the real skill rather than a construct of your imagination. The problem being that if you start out with a wrong mindset your body can't ever get a chance to learn. Paradox.

[Informer]

For physical confrontation I think I will stick to snapping at the end of a punch. This is evident in both boxing and bruce lee's one inch punch.

 

By staying relax until the final moment you save energy verse being tense. If you punch someone without any firmness you break your hand. By waiting until the last second to stiffen you can increase the momentum of the attack by swinging your hips and and snapping your wrist (or sudden stiffening), like Bruce Lee did with the one inch punch:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeg_5bba6-M

 

In sparring I don't think the objective is to hurt the opponent, so I wouldn't be using the stiffening or snapping or hips. Probably would use it to just practice the motions and develop reflex of them.

 

Thanks for the video ChiDragon.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Informer

[ChiDragon]

ahhhhhhhh.........Taomeow

The teacher thing again..... Okay, my body can never be sung without a teacher, that is really something new to me. Sometimes, playing with semantics will get nowhere in some communications. Let's not talk about it at all since we have all the experts here which cannot communicate with each other and someone has to speak for somebody else.....

 

I guess a chicken talking to a duck replacing apples with oranges will lead us to the ceiling....

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

For physical confrontation I think I will stick to snapping at the end of a punch. This is evident in both boxing and bruce lee's one inch punch.

 

By staying relax until the final moment you save energy verse being tense. If you punch someone without any firmness you break your hand. By waiting until the last second to stiffen you can increase the momentum of the attack by swinging your hips and and snapping your wrist (or sudden stiffening), like Bruce Lee did with the one inch punch:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeg_5bba6-M

 

In sparring I don't think the objective is to hurt the opponent, so I wouldn't be using the stiffening or snapping or hips. Probably would use it to just practice the motions and develop reflex of them.

 

Thanks for the video ChiDragon.

 

Informer...

Where the hell have you been when I needed you the most. BTW How did you know all about this, from your teacher....???

 

BTW The one inch punch was from the WingChun philosophy. Bruce Lee's father wants him to learn Tai Ji, instead he practiced WingChun.

 

Edited to add:

You quite welcome and I thank you very much....

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Informer]

I think some may benefit from a different form of teacher than others. I learned by reading it and practicing it. (The trick of the 1 inch punch)

 

So then Bruce Lee was my teacher?

 

or

 

The guys at the boxing club are my teacher?

 

 

or

 

I am my teacher?

 

or

 

I didn't have a teacher?

 

I guess it depends on the perspective.

 

I was in a boxing club as well so we had punching bags and each other to practice on and critique

Edited June 14, 2012 by Informer

[ChiDragon]

I think some may benefit from a different form of teacher than others. I learned by reading it and practicing it. (The trick of the 1 inch punch)

 

So then Bruce Lee was my teacher?

or

The guys at the boxing club are my teacher?

or

I am my teacher?

or

I didn't have a teacher?

 

I guess it depends on the perspective.

 

I was in a boxing club as well so we had punching bags and each other to practice on and critique

 

Good! I think we have something in common...

 

In WingChun, Bruce Lee extended his right arm all the way out, then, he bends his arm back to strike or Fa Jin. If he had leant Tai Ji from his father, then he would have had been bending his right arm in the first place. Hence, that's all he has to do was straighten his arm to lunge the punch. In this case, he would have reserved all his energy in a Yin position before the lunge(a Yang state).

 

Yes, I think, indirectly may be all of the above. What it amounts to was self taught...

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Informer]

Good! I think we have something in common...

 

In WingChun, Bruce Lee extended his right arm all the way out, then, he bends his arm back to strike or Fa Jin. If he had leant Tai Ji from his father, then he would have had been bending his right arm in the first place. Hence, that's all he has to do was straighten his arm to lunge the punch. In this case, he would have reserved all his energy in a Yin position before the lunge(a Yang state).

 

Yes, I think so, indirectly Bruce Lee was your teacher....

 

Haha, then I guess you are being my teacher in that respect.

[Taomeow]

ahhhhhhhh.........Taomeow

The teacher thing again..... Okay, my body can never be sung without a teacher, that is really something new to me. Sometimes, playing with semantics will get nowhere in some communications. Let's not talk about it at all since we have all the experts here which cannot communicate with each other and someone has to speak for somebody else.....

 

I guess a chicken talking to a duck replacing apples with oranges will lead us to the ceiling....

 

A sung mind is alert and relaxed -- that's how it gets stuff. A mind that is not sung is stiffly committed to winning an argument -- that's how it misses stuff.

 

I keep talking about what my mind got so far from taiji. You keep talking about what your mind got so far from yourself. If you were an embodiment of taiji, you would get taiji from yourself. E.g., Bruce Lee, an embodiment of Hollywood, was getting Hollywood taiji from himself. And you are getting ChiDragon taiji from yourself. There's no other kind you have, but you seem happy enough with what you have, for now. Well, I'm not happy with what I have for now. I need to learn from my teacher. That's because I want real lineage taiji, not Taomeow taiji. I could have Taomeow taiji anytime, but I want the real authentic traditional thing. You, on the other hand, don't. You want ChiDragon taiji, you don't want the real authentic traditional thing. Well... tastes differ.

[Informer]

I think it is pointing at training reflexes to just react, instead of thinking and then reacting.

[dwai]

A sung mind is alert and relaxed -- that's how it gets stuff. A mind that is not sung is stiffly committed to winning an argument -- that's how it misses stuff.

 

I keep talking about what my mind got so far from taiji. You keep talking about what your mind got so far from yourself. If you were an embodiment of taiji, you would get taiji from yourself. E.g., Bruce Lee, an embodiment of Hollywood, was getting Hollywood taiji from himself. And you are getting ChiDragon taiji from yourself. There's no other kind you have, but you seem happy enough with what you have, for now. Well, I'm not happy with what I have for now. I need to learn from my teacher. That's because I want real lineage taiji, not Taomeow taiji. I could have Taomeow taiji anytime, but I want the real authentic traditional thing. You, on the other hand, don't. You want ChiDragon taiji, you don't want the real authentic traditional thing. Well... tastes differ.

 

Or how Master Liao puts it "there is REAL Taiji and there is 'Taiji-like Taiji'". The two are not the same.

I see what you say in my teacher's attitude to (a man who's been practicing for more than 3 decades now). My teacher says --

 

"If you think you know it, then you don't know it. When you think you don't know it, that's when you keep learning" or "Taiji is a school where you should always stay a student...the moment you stop being a student, you stop learning".