BaGua Help

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Evolution of Void, Truth, Consciousness, Universe, Galaxies, Stars, Solar systems, Planets, Life on planets, Diversity of life, Intellectual Consciousness, Diversity of Intellectual Consciousness, Awareness of Self, Awareness of Others, belief, Awareness of belief, Awareness of Truth, Pursuit of Truth.

We were once every one of these things, and/or will be these things in due time, and will be all of these things again some time yet again.



every (life) form that ever has been, is connected to every (life) form that ever will be.


We were once trees in a world without animals, sharing the world with our brothers the insects.

Course we were also the insects.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[joeblast]

Those who practice Bagua in this forum, I'd like to hear about your style and progression. Have you encountered any sticky points in your practice, how are you dealing with them?

 

It would be nice if we could build up some sort of database in here which would help future practitioners.

 

watching that last vid you posted up, the steps seemed to me, large, and the dipping of the body while walking around like that - that's....ok? when I circle walk I generally try to step smoothly, sometimes I will use different techniques to ascertain smooth movement, e.g. can pay attention to smoothness of dantien moving through space, can use palms down to check height or back-forth irregularities...

 

but then I see a master talking jibberish (because I dont understand chinese) and some things like this seem out of place, but who am I to say anything concrete about bgz, I'm a bgz hack

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[joeblast]

Interesting

 

Style, what style Like I said I'm currently a total bgz hack, I just circle walk, palm change, include some qigong forms in there that work my shoulders, do some spine focus...laogung breathing circle walking the stove (a real one )...I havent even been shown much, I just really like circle walking, its good for my back. So my routine winds up being some standing, some shaking, some circle walking, arm movements, tossed in a blender, sorta.

[Walker]

Gerard, have you ever come across videos of accomplished practitioners whose feet are completely flat both when they leave the ground and then return to it (ie, instead of rolling the foot when lifting it and/or putting it down?) The importance of keeping the foot flat, especially when lifting it, has been heavily emphasized to me by a teacher in Shanghai, and my suspicion from my own beginners' practice is that this difficult point, if it can be successfully adhered to, stimulates the entire yin qiao mai 阴跷脉 when the foot is lifted. Rolling the foot, therefore, exerts a very different effect on the qi of the body. Considering that Dong Haichuan emphasizes keeping the foot flat in the songs, I am always a bit perplexed as to why so few teachers seem to include this practice. What I refer to can be seen starting at 1:19 or so here: http://www.56.com/u54/v_NjUyMjM3ODY.html

 

Additionally, have you come across videos with practitioners whose chests consistently face the center of the circle, and not just their heads and arms? The importance of this point was emphasized to me in Beijing by a member of the Baguazhang Research Association, a man in his mid-sixties in incredible shape, who, to illustrate his point, stood up, and with his feet parallel and facing in one direction, twisted his entire body so that his chest was relaxedly facing the exact opposite direction, 180 degrees away! (I know of no videos of this man online, nor could I find record of his name online--he could also touch his elbow to his foot while sitting, with his leg straight... pretty flexible for a guy in his sixties!). Part of the reason this twist is so important, he said, is that it results in a massage of all the internal organs. I have heard, also, that students of Pei Xirong in Shanghai used to practice this twist to such a degree that their chests were facing behind them while they walked the circle. If you observe most videos, however, the practitioners' chests face in the direction they are walking.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

100% Agree with Walker.

Every single teacher I have had in Asia has emphasized these two points like they were more important than anything else.

The first one, keeping the heel down has a very key martial/structural reason behind it also. If one has a teacher from an authentic lineage, you will be told hundreds of times to keep the heel down until you finally take it seriously and start to discover the brilliance behind it.

 

When done correctly like this, the qua is forced into the right position with every step, no shifting no adjustment, just exactly in the right place immediately as the weight is transferred. In fact, it's impossible not to have the qua in the correct alignment if your heel is correct. This makes the entire step strong and powerful. There is no loss of balance or strength at any point in the stepping process. A bagua master is rooted at all times.

 

Another key is that your issuance of power is solid. The energy from the ground is delivered to the target in the most efficient manner using LARGE bone/muscle/tendons. When you allow the heel to rise, the forward push is done through the ball of the foot. The connection between the ball of the foot and the leg is not structurally solid and it uses small muscles/bones/tendons. The connection straight from the heel to the leg requires no muscles or small bones/tendons. It is a straight shot from the heel ---> up the rear leg. The power is uninterrupted. It's basic bio-mechanics or structural engineering. Remember, in bagua the power doesn't come from the arms, or even the muscles of the body or leg. It comes from the ground. Our goal is to be a vertical representation of the ground that moves in all directions. The body structural needs to be correct while moving in order to facilitate this transference of power.

 

Moreover, I am entirely convinced that there is an energetic reason. I practiced Bagua for many years in the States before moving to Asia and none of my teachers had a clue about these key points. Walking was a chore, a fun chore, but the legs would tire after some time. I fully believe from my experience that walking in the correct manner opens up the channels at some point and the feeling in the legs is indescribable, pure bliss. One can walk for insane lengths of time even in a lower basin without becoming tired. In fact you don't want to stop walking. No fancy changes, just simple walking in a circle with a stationary posture.

 

It doesn't matter what style of Bagua. Anyone who practices this correct method of stepping for even just a few years will NEVER GO BACK to the incorrect technique, no matter what anyone says. The truth has to be felt and experienced to be truly understood. In real internal arts, the difference between authentic lineages and real mastery is entirely in these tiny, usually imperceptible keys. A master can teach a student for 40 years, show him all the material, yet that student will have no real skill unless these details are divulged.

 

One point to understand: this doesn't happen easily or quickly. In order to walk correctly in Bagua requires great flexibility in the feet/ankle and torso. It takes a couple of years to gain the range of motion required to walk correctly. Walk extremely slow in a high stance until your form is correct, then slowly drop over time while holding onto the key points. The great speed, power and lightness comes from adherence to the principles.

 

 

The second point is equally important. Without the torque in the body toward the center of the circle, there is no Bagua. Don't want to make this post a book, so I won't go into detail on this one, but once again there is a reason why this point is hammered into students and well documented in the lineage songs.

Serious Bagua students really should make an effort to get to Asia and seek out authentic teachers. Each time incorrect technique is taught and passed on, the art gets watered down. Get it straight from the source and learn and transmit it to the next generation in it's purest form. Not for any personal ego, but for the longevity of the art. Real Bagua is a gift from the gods, it's not only a martial art but a powerful qi gong, meditation, and ultimately path to enlightenment. Best to keep it pure for future generations to enjoy.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

Even Liu Jingru which you appear to regard as legit, teaches this. It's even stated on that same site you linked to.

 

"feet should not move higher than about one inch above the ground and should stay parallel to the ground; "

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/liujingrubook.html

 

He clearly states that the foot should remain parallel to the ground. That means not lifting the heel. Liang Zen pu's lineage - Li z ming same thing. Every single Chinese Bagua master I trained with and even one Chen Tai chi master I met in Shanghai stress these same fundamentals. It's not something that just one or two Chinese masters randomly say. It's something I heard again and again from many masters. I was floored when the Tai chi master in Shanghai asked me to show him my Bagua and as I got going shouted out that I needed to keep my heels down! I wish I could have trained more with him, but the job/housing scene just didn't work out in Shanghai for me.

 

Not lifting the heel is just ONE of the important key points that may seem small and inconsequential but are in fact the very essence and key to the art. Like I said, a master can demonstrate, or even teach a student for many years and by an untrained observer it may appear like the student has gained a high skill level, yet without the master divulging these key points its mere flowery arms and embroidered legs.

 

I too have seen my masters giving demonstrations while lifting the heel and this doesn't bother me one bit since I know from daily practice how important they believe these key points to be. There is a tradition of family or indoor students and public students that many traditional masters still live by. Internal arts have a lot more going on than most can see from a few videos. Small points ARE the big points and are rarely shown or taught openly.

 

I like to see it similar to a ship sailing across the ocean. A few degrees may seem like no big deal, but over the course of many miles it will make a big difference, between arriving in Asia or Australia.

 

 

The crane step is an entirely different technique, not the same as mud walking so can't really expect them to be executed or taught in the same manner. I was taught that the mud step is absolutely what you use in combat, that's why it's correct training is so important. What you don't use in combat is the mud step with the "slide" at the end of it. Many teachers don't want students to practice the slide until they have many many years and can display effortless technique in the normal tang ne bu.

 

The girl in that last video had perfect stepping technique, her heels remained flat. If you would try it, you would quickly find that it is not so easy. It takes great flexibility especially in lower stances. Much easier for younger folks! The very same people that you see in that video that are lifting their heels, I can guarantee you that if we were to go train with them that they would teach keeping the heels down to their family students.

 

The goal in Bagua walking is to remain 100% grounded at all times. A Bagua master can literally "walk through" anyone even without using hand/arm techniques just from expressing the ground. If he/she meets force at any point in the step, it will not interrupt his ground. It is simply not possible to do this with incorrect form.

 

One of the quickest ways to find out is to sloooooow it way way down. You will quickly find out if incorrect form leads to stability and rooting and will then have a real interest in learning correct form. I use to hate training with my main teacher because he always made us go extremely slow, painfully slow. But now I understand the method to his madness. Only correct form and technique will work at this speed. Most students these days just want to learn the cool changes, they have no desire to walk around a tree slowly for hours every day while holding static postures, but I can say without a doubt that this is where the magic happens.

 

I don't mean to offend you or anyone else. I am very passionate about things that I have discovered through my direct experience to be true. The position of the heel in Bagua stepping is one of these jewels, and I am extremely thankful to have been taught correctly and have it beaten into me again and again until it got through my thick head. I have yet to see or hear of anyone in the states teaching in this manner. The stepping in Bagua is the main thing. You can learn an infinite number of changes, but it's all built upon the foundation of the circle walking. If this is unstable, no matter what you put on top of it will be of little consequence.

 

It's like the "telephone game," the message completely gets garbled and changes as it is passed down. This is not just a western phenomena there is a lot of crap being taught in Asia as well. The arts are getting watered down and passed onto new generations. Most masters only pass the lineage on to a few disciples, but so many people are claiming they are "masters" even though they may only have a tiny piece of the real teachings and no real skill or internal power.

 

It's sad to me, and something I am passionate about. I have met so many so called and self proclaimed "masters" that are clearly missing key points and decades of experience required to truly master an art. My teachers don't consider themselves masters, nor do any authentic students that have gazed into the abyss. These great arts like Bagua cannot be mastered in one lifetime, in fact the deeper we go, the more we realize the work that needs to be done to perfect such an art. There is always room for improvement and that's one of the beautiful things about it.

Once again, I have no wish to offend, but it's something I am truly passionate about. Correctly performed, circle walking is an absolute gift from the gods.

[joeblast]

Total tangent, but heel down is actually one of my dad's big golf tips - picking the left heel up towards the top of the backswing (assuming rightey) is a massively destabilizing action, mindful training keeping it down is a big step towards a more stable swing.

[joeblast]

Total tangent, but heel down is actually one of my dad's big golf tips - picking the left heel up towards the top of the backswing (assuming rightey) is a massively destabilizing action, mindful training keeping it down is a big step towards a more stable swing.

=more able to "let go of 'trying to place the clubhead on the ball' and let the power of the body's twist manifest itself, with the ball right in the way"

 

just like you dont want to pay too much attention to this or that, placing the foot or what not - just keep the center and a lot of things automatically fall into place

[spiraltao]

Tung said that the mud step walking was more important that the martial arts. ...or that is what I have heard from more than one source.

 

I love the crane stepping. MCO

[joeblast]

havin lots of fun with 8 ding shi or was it 9? heh

[GreytoWhite]

Tung said that the mud step walking was more important that the martial arts. ...or that is what I have heard from more than one source.

 

I love the crane stepping. MCO

 

I don't remember the exact quote but I believe it had to do with walking the circle instead of mud wading steps. Yin Fu lineage practitioners typically don't practice the mud wading step and he was the person to study with Dong Haichuan the longest.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I have no real experience with baguazhang, but just for balancing the discussion, the mudstepping technique does seems a bit limited in way of drastic direction changes. With the feet so close to the ground and far away from the body, it sort of commits you to the direction your facing, whereas when doing something more like tai chi stepping (crane stepping?), where the back foot comes up to the other leg, there are more options for shooting in any direction with full attack. Also having the foot come down with each step allows for a stomping fa jin, or alternatively a low kick rather than a step.

 

For example, if I'm mud stepping and suddenly someone comes from an unexpected angle, I can only root myself, whereas if my foot is not committed to the ground I can quickly choose another direction or attack the legs.

 

How does one apply mud-stepping in a way that the weight of the body can change direction at all times?

 

 

thanks

[JustBHappy]

I have no real experience with baguazhang, but just for balancing the discussion, the mudstepping technique does seems a bit limited in way of drastic direction changes. With the feet so close to the ground and far away from the body, it sort of commits you to the direction your facing, whereas when doing something more like tai chi stepping (crane stepping?), where the back foot comes up to the other leg, there are more options for shooting in any direction with full attack. Also having the foot come down with each step allows for a stomping fa jin, or alternatively a low kick rather than a step.

 

For example, if I'm mud stepping and suddenly someone comes from an unexpected angle, I can only root myself, whereas if my foot is not committed to the ground I can quickly choose another direction or attack the legs.

 

How does one apply mud-stepping in a way that the weight of the body can change direction at all times?

 

 

thanks

Ko bu

 

and

 

Bai bu

 

Instantly changing to any direction is one of Bagua footworks' greatest strengths and what makes it so suitable for dealing multiple attackers.

[joeblast]

kou bu, hook step

bai bu, swing step

 

hook turns from kua,

swing points toward hook's arch and blends into the circle;

 

=

 

direction changes have significant psoas component

[zerostao]

mud stepping is going to be a much faster direction change then crane stepping

i have 3 friends who only crane step, presumably to be able to step over the fallen ones

you change directions with your palm changes

waist still leads

[JustBHappy]

20+ years ago when I learned my first Bagua, the teacher exclusively taught crane stepping, but required all students to wear a weight vest. Absolutely brutal training, but when we took that weight vest off and were free to walk normally we felt like we could fly. It was almost like a bit of Ching Gong training done externally.

 

We wore the weight vest through the whole class. From the warm ups - pushups, situps, frog jumps, external hard style forms, etc... and of course the Bagua. For all you hard core's out there I highly recommend it. Just make sure the vest fits tightly and is equally balanced with lead on the front and the back. You should also take it easy for the first few weeks with any quick waist turning, as the weights will add some momentum and can twist your spine a little farther than it may be ready to go.

 

After a few months, your level of conditioning, your balance, and your stepping will be greatly improved.

[zerostao]

i am thinking i know your teacher

edit> 55 pound weight vests perhaps?

Edited February 15, 2013 by zerostao

[JustBHappy]

Not really sure to tell the truth, but if you put all the lead in them it's difficult to even get up and walk, Could've been around 55 lbs. This was in Colorado.

 

I always used about 3/4 full on my vest. They were made by a couple of the black belts, but a few students had fancy commercial ones that had a lot less lead. The lead on the store bought ones was much easier to deal with, I think they used lead bb's in "tubes" as I recall. My vests have big solid rectangle blocks of lead that tend to hurt when you fall.

 

Brings back memories for sure. Even just lifting your hands up into Tui Mo zhang (the basic millstone posture) was not easy with all the weight pulling down on the shoulders. I've fallen forward more than a few times doing squats and can remember barely being able to get back up after struggling through situps. Roll over on your side, bring your knees in and swing over the legs and do a quick push with the legs. Then struggle to gain your balance before you fall over. Hehe, good times!

 

If your balance is off and your body isn't vertical, even a tiny bit, you will know it. A great way to force correct posture when rotating and walking. Sadistic, but a great training tool.