BaGua Help

[zerostao]

i am gonna go out on a limb and say soard and sin kwang the'

[JustBHappy]

Gotta go out on a limb to get the fruit! Bingo.

[zerostao]

yeah the frog jumping in weight vests stirred my memory

and when you said the word sadistic , well that sealed it hahaha

one summer me and 2 friends wore those damn weight vests not just for workouts but 24'7 for 100 days.

when we took them off and went to a tennessee tavern, as soon as we walked in everybody wanted to buy our drinks.

cant imagine why.

[JustBHappy]

Hehe too funny. 100 days, that's just plain crazy. You guys are animalz.

 

Yeah frog jumps while holding the top of the vest so you don't get smacked in the chin as the weight flies up.

[GreytoWhite]

I have no real experience with baguazhang, but just for balancing the discussion, the mudstepping technique does seems a bit limited in way of drastic direction changes. With the feet so close to the ground and far away from the body, it sort of commits you to the direction your facing, whereas when doing something more like tai chi stepping (crane stepping?), where the back foot comes up to the other leg, there are more options for shooting in any direction with full attack. Also having the foot come down with each step allows for a stomping fa jin, or alternatively a low kick rather than a step.

 

For example, if I'm mud stepping and suddenly someone comes from an unexpected angle, I can only root myself, whereas if my foot is not committed to the ground I can quickly choose another direction or attack the legs.

 

How does one apply mud-stepping in a way that the weight of the body can change direction at all times?

 

 

thanks

 

HE please understand that the majority of my bagua experience is more scholarly than fighty and I am definitely more interested in the Yin Fu lineages than the Cheng. I have spent much more time practicing Chen taiji but it has HUGE overlaps with bagua and so much so that I'm more interested in bagua now and the only thing that I kept from Chen shi was the silk reeling exercises. That said I'll probably be training a Cheng lineage once I can figure out some transportation.

 

As has already been explained, the leg is rotated using the kua, a knee to ankle type of rotation, the knee should be stationary really. Considering that a major part of bagua's body method comes from twisting and untwisting the next bit should make a bit more sense. Circle walking is a form of practice and is not normally used in actual fighting. Bagua in application can look like a rather evasive xingyi and most Cheng lineage practitioners have so much xingyi mixed in with their bagua it's closer to Nutella than a Reese's cup.

 

 

In taiji the rear leg has the weight, whereas in baguazhang it's the "front" leg that has the weight. The front leg is whichever leg has the weight on it, not where it is positioned in space. The rear leg is then free to be used in a variety of manners. This fellow makes a great and quick explanation of some of the uses of bagua footwork and kicks.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5-95vahRc4

 

The front leg provides the root but the step is not overly committed, after all bagua is all about changing. Another thing to consider is the bagua scissor step. Most Yang taiji players have a wide open "ziran" stance. Wide stances are not impossible with bagua, as many lineages have an equivalent of Snake Creeps Down, it's simply not an emphasis in training. The smaller stepping may not have the flashiness of the stomp or some of the more pronounced weight shifts but most of the mechanics are still there. The twisted body is actually more force conductive in my opinion and makes the springy quality a little easier to manifest.

 

Regarding mud stepping, it is not a regular heel to toe step. Typically with a mud step the foot will strike the surface of the ground right behind the ball of the foot and then the rest of the foot comes down and there is a weight shift. This kind of stepping is trained so that one does not lift one's feet too far from the ground to be easily swept.

 

Bagua typically works on a reverse microcosmic orbit of up the front and down the back at beginner-intermediate stages and in more advanced stages works on the regular MCO of up the back and down the front.

Edited February 15, 2013 by MithShrike

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ko bu

 

and

 

Bai bu

 

Instantly changing to any direction is one of Bagua footworks' greatest strengths and what makes it so suitable for dealing multiple attackers.

 

Still, to me (in my admitted ignorance of the actual baguazhang skill), it seems like having the feet planted in these positions makes the knees very open to a low kick, whereas having the feet higher up allows more flexibility to absorb the force by moving with it, as well as trapping a kick or striking from the stepping position.

 

 

mud stepping is going to be a much faster direction change then crane stepping

i have 3 friends who only crane step, presumably to be able to step over the fallen ones

you change directions with your palm changes

waist still leads

 

This does make sense, as the palm changes redirect the weight. On the downside, they also give away which direction you're striking. Probably has to do with being more comfortable with one method vs. the other though. It seems to me that crane stepping keeps the balance centered more, while mudstepping is always in motion. Once somebody is adept at mudstepping though, maybe they are just as centered as crane stepping.

 

 

(got to go, will get back to MithShrike....)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

SNIP

 

As has already been explained, the leg is rotated using the kua, a knee to ankle type of rotation, the knee should be stationary really. Considering that a major part of bagua's body method comes from twisting and untwisting the next bit should make a bit more sense. Circle walking is a form of practice and is not normally used in actual fighting. Bagua in application can look like a rather evasive xingyi and most Cheng lineage practitioners have so much xingyi mixed in with their bagua it's closer to Nutella than a Reese's cup.

I dunno about not using circle walking in combat. Seems most of the side steps and angled approaches come from circular shifting and spinning. I can definitely see the advantage of circle walking, I just don't yet see how mud-stepping is always the best option. Another example being that it would be easier to do ko bu and bai bu when the foot is up in a ready position.

 

I guess its mostly for small circle walking/turning that I'm looking at.

 

SNIP

 

In taiji the rear leg has the weight, whereas in baguazhang it's the "front" leg that has the weight. The front leg is whichever leg has the weight on it, not where it is positioned in space. The rear leg is then free to be used in a variety of manners. This fellow makes a great and quick explanation of some of the uses of bagua footwork and kicks.

Yes, I can see how he is shifting quite quickly without lifting his feet up too. But then on a rougher terrain, or even rough concrete where the feet can get caught, this could maybe put someone in a narrow stance with nowhere for the feet to go (from what I know/can see).

 

SNIP

 

The front leg provides the root but the step is not overly committed, after all bagua is all about changing. Another thing to consider is the bagua scissor step. Most Yang taiji players have a wide open "ziran" stance. Wide stances are not impossible with bagua, as many lineages have an equivalent of Snake Creeps Down, it's simply not an emphasis in training. The smaller stepping may not have the flashiness of the stomp or some of the more pronounced weight shifts but most of the mechanics are still there. The twisted body is actually more force conductive in my opinion and makes the springy quality a little easier to manifest.

Well, the stomp has a lot do with using the downward force as well, which could add another 30 pounds or so to the strike fairly easily with enough practice.

 

Regarding mud stepping, it is not a regular heel to toe step. Typically with a mud step the foot will strike the surface of the ground right behind the ball of the foot and then the rest of the foot comes down and there is a weight shift. This kind of stepping is trained so that one does not lift one's feet too far from the ground to be easily swept.

 

Bagua typically works on a reverse microcosmic orbit of up the front and down the back at beginner-intermediate stages and in more advanced stages works on the regular MCO of up the back and down the front.

Seems tai chi uses mostly the latter MCO. Is the former used for "dancing" as they call in boxing?

Edited February 15, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[GreytoWhite]

I had a great big post typed up but then I backed out of the page accidentally and lost it. Basically, not all bagua lineages use mud stepping. Like circle walking, it's primarily a training method. Mud stepping was probably taken from Cheng Tinghua's Bao Ding shuai jiao days. The flatter foot one allows for a greater potential range of movement of the foot itself from the ankle up or down and helps with sticking to the opponent's leg. If one's foot is already up it's a "harder" way to meet and adjust to incoming force.

 

Yin Fu's lineage doesn't have mud stepping but Yin Fu learned Shaolin Luohan before bagua. Also, in Yin Fu - Men Baozhen - Xie Peiqi line there is stomping in the Monkey system but that system has been taught only to a select few and without video I can find. Apparently one of the earlier students of Dong Haichuan was taught this system and murdered someone with it. Another interesting tidbit is that the qing gong skills were probably contained in the Monkey system at one time.

 

The narrow stance critique is quite valid and John Wang of the Chang Dongsheng line has repeatedly made the same comment. I think that if one is fighting with awareness then it's not something that should be worried about. Training and fighting are usually different in appearance, hence all of the applications DVDs and seminars.

 

I can't comment on boxing, I've never done it.

 

Really though, if you want to talk actual fighting with IMA I'd recommend going over to Rum Soaked Fist.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I had a great big post typed up but then I backed out of the page accidentally and lost it.

hate that..

 

Basically, not all bagua lineages use mud stepping. Like circle walking, it's primarily a training method. Mud stepping was probably taken from Cheng Tinghua's Bao Ding shuai jiao days. The flatter foot one allows for a greater potential range of movement of the foot itself from the ankle up or down and helps with sticking to the opponent's leg. If one's foot is already up it's a "harder" way to meet and adjust to incoming force.

True. There seems a lot of lower type foot/leg traps with this step, also with the MCO type movements, you need to be rooted (though some tai chi players can root pretty heavily on one foot).

 

Yin Fu's lineage doesn't have mud stepping but Yin Fu learned Shaolin Luohan before bagua. Also, in Yin Fu - Men Baozhen - Xie Peiqi line there is stomping in the Monkey system but that system has been taught only to a select few and without video I can find. Apparently one of the earlier students of Dong Haichuan was taught this system and murdered someone with it. Another interesting tidbit is that the qing gong skills were probably contained in the Monkey system at one time.

 

The narrow stance critique is quite valid and John Wang of the Chang Dongsheng line has repeatedly made the same comment. I think that if one is fighting with awareness then it's not something that should be worried about.

True. This is the "dancing" thing. A lot of foot work is just moving, but then even in boxing the fighter usually roots before striking too.

SNIP

 

Really though, if you want to talk actual fighting with IMA I'd recommend going over to Rum Soaked Fist.

Yeah, I've been lurking there a bit lately...

[Astral Monk]

What do yall think about bagua stepping on uneven ground? Walking around trees is popular but they usually have roots and dips and rocks and all kind of stuff.

 

8)

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Astral Monk]

Do you live in the countryside?

 

No, but I have a bit of forest nearby, which is certainly not level, lol. There are park spaces around with grass like that, but even then the ground is uneven prone to have dips, etc. Seems to me like good practice for balance, but it makes mud stepping a little challenging...

 

8)

[JustBHappy]

Practicing on uneven ground is great training, but I truly believe that one should first practice for a few years on nice flat ground.

 

I am big on structure, I feel it is the one of the most important aspects of internal arts such as Bagua zhang. I've seen so many so called "internal martial artists" with years and years or decades of training who have no root, continuity, and basic structural knowledge and application. Many cannot even stand, much less move correctly. All one has to do is watch the Bagua videos on youtube to see that this is a very common issue.

 

Once this basic structure is understood and FELT then it needs to be trained daily for many years before it becomes natural. It's the whole "unconscious incompetence" to "unconscious competence" process. At this point, it's good to mix it up and train on uneven ground and challenging environments. I feel that if a beginner just jumps into this type of training, then proper technique, structure, and continuity will be thrown out the window.

 

In the real world, when the #$@! hits the fan we may not have a nice flat ground to move on so training on uneven ground is very wise in my opinion.

[Astral Monk]

Practicing on uneven ground is great training, but I truly believe that one should first practice for a few years on nice flat ground.

 

>snip<

 

Agreed. Finding the root is the most important.

 

If one does step on uneven ground, I suppose you just try to move your foot over the contours as best as possible, making sure every step is totally solid. Or would you change it up and adopt a more normal 'rolling' step with the leading foot to be able to find the ground then plant the weight...?

 

8)

[joeblast]

it was funny, my friend and I had to walk back and forth between the garage and his house and there was quite a few ice patches, he kept reminding me of them - no, you be careful, I'm not the one that wiped out on 'em, I'm the one that steps over them as if they're normal ground because my steps are centered

[spiraltao]

it was funny, my friend and I had to walk back and forth between the garage and his house and there was quite a few ice patches, he kept reminding me of them - no, you be careful, I'm not the one that wiped out on 'em, I'm the one that steps over them as if they're normal ground because my steps are centered

 

 

This used to be a problem for me, every winter for like four winters in a row I "busted my ass" once per winter. Since 09 zero falls on ice or in mud. I have the advantage of being able to really practice mudstepping in actual mud.

 

I would recommend training mud step on uneven ground, as that is why it glides with heel parallel to the ground, only slightly above it. This will result in more sensitive stepping, more feeling with the feet., A hillside is great as well. I just always finish on flat ground.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just wanted to say I am now a loyal convert of the heel planting method of stepping.

 

I happened upon a discovery which really changed my feel for balance on the heels: Standing on a firm cushion which is on the ground. You feel the heels sink to the floor and the front of the feet just make micro-balance-adjustment. one can feel where the balance/center of the weight sits under the heels by the part that falls/sinks down to the ground. Then find this same balance without the pillow. The heels being closest to the ground also allows the front of the foot to avoid catching on any bumps in the terrain.

 

I see there is a lot more power this way to push from the heels using the same strength that lifts the body. Getting a feel for the pivoting on the heel from this too.

 

I've been applying this while walking through snow and ice and can definitely see the strength, balance, and rooting difference now. I actually have to switch from heels to regular walking when I come close to other pedestrians because I noticed they thought I was plowing towards them, even though I wasn't using any more effort than usual. just that the heels are so much faster, also because the stride is longer and their not slipping on ice.

 

Seems like it could be a bit hard on the knees though - probably a technique I'm not using, like walking lower so the knees are more bent. Mud stepping is starting to look more like a lower version of crane-stepping now too, which maintains some of the balance effect/dynamics that i didn't want to lose.

 

This was total fluke too.. tried putting two firm pillows under my feet to damped the squeaky floor effect of rooted walking, and... eureka .

[GreytoWhite]

Yep, that kind of walking is hard on the knees. Try to get the same feeling you have walking on your heels to walking with a strike just behind and inside of the balls of your feet.

[Astral Monk]

Guanghua Gao style bagua uses a heel step for basic circle walking. Like the mud step, there's a push forward, but in this case it's with the heel of the leading foot pressing vigorously against the ground, grinding its way forward until it stops and flattens. This is a very powerful step and good to practice, but I found it very difficult to do on concrete surfaces. Easier on dirt or gravel, but you will wear the shXX out of your shoes for real.

 

8)

Edited March 2, 2013 by Astral Monk

[JustBHappy]

Yes, it can be hard on the knees, but you will find that if you train correctly it will strengthen and heal the knees. I fully believe that it was the circle walking that has healed my knees from years of kung fu and skiing. The incorrect practice of Bagua is extremely damaging to the knees, but correctly done it actually opens up the leg channels and heals the knees.

Sadly, many 'masters' have incorrect form and are passing on a lineage that is harmful to the knees. High level 'masters' that for all but a few would be regarded as the best of the best. This is one reason why I don't care so much about names and the meaningless ego trip of studying under a famous master. The bragging rights and over-inflated ego will do little to repair the damage done to your body.

Keep the stance high until you have developed the extreme flexibility in the ankles/feet and the qua that is required to keep correct form while stepping. Practice walking up and down (backwards) on ramps and slowly increase the angle as your ankle flexibility improves. The qua literally needs to opened up, and turned in, beyond what most people can do. There is a whole set of specific exercises that prepare the body for Bagua practice. Sadly, it's rare to find a teacher that knows them, and most students aren't interested in this type of training, but in my experience, they are priceless. Once the ankles/feet and qua become more flexible you can start lowering your stance. Weight should NEVER transferred onto a knee that is twisted, torqued, bent incorrectly, or injury will be inevitable, especially if you're walking hundreds or thousands or circles a day.

It's a little difficult to explain the correct stepping online. If I get some time I may fire up photoshop and try to make a few simple diagrams. The method is very precise. If practiced correctly I guarantee that it is not harmful and is even beneficial to the body. Of course it important to not over-train and be patient in the developing the flexibility, structure, and technique of circle walking. It takes years to learn how to walk correctly. If the knees start hurting, then it's time to stop. Let them heal, and examine what went wrong.

The most common stepping mistake I see is turning the inner foot towards the center of the circle. This is a guaranteed way of damaging ones knees, but sadly it's very common. The second most common is over-stepping/turning with the outside foot. The toe should never break the line formed by the heel-big toe of the inner foot. These are guidelines for circle walking, which for a serious student will take up the majority of the daily practice. The changes will often break these rules and should be done carefully or not at all until the circle walking has sufficiently strengthened and stretched the body.

Straight line stepping needs to be practiced before attempting to circle walk. One of my main teachers has the students walk back and forth in a straight line for 20-30 minutes every single day regardless of how many years they have been training. He of course is right there practicing and leading them. You would be amazed at how much you can continue to learn from straight line walking. One could practice for many lifetimes and still not master it. It's a great way to start realizing some of the internal aspects of the art.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

In my opinion He Jinghan misses the mark on many points. He disregards quite a few extremely important guidelines. All one has to do to is watch him in action or look at his static postures to see.

If you like what see and you and want to train hard to end up like this, then by all means knock yourself out. He seems like a great guy and he loves to cater to the foreign market. He has an English book out, and travels around teaching foreigners. One could certainly learn a lot from him, but if you didn't know better would also pickup some bad habits. Bring an extra set of knees along with you, you will need them and forget about gaining any martial skill.

Take a look at these:

Great way to destroy your knees! Take a huge step and turn your toe out (Bai Bu) then put weight on your poor knee in this position. Yikes!

Here is his interpretation of circle walking. He's got the qua locked up and full of tension. Absolutely no shift of the qua for each step. No rooting like this, no martial power, and no internal energy. Any turn from this would require the twist of the knee and the ankles instead of the qua, which is another great way of damaging your knees.

The qua needs to do the turning, the knees need to remain in straight alignment or they will be damaged. The knee is meant to move the lower leg up and down, not to twist it. Once again, any time you twist the knee incorrectly and then put weight on it you're asking for knee problems. The correct way is to use your qua to turn and twist which requires extreme flexibility of the qua both inward and outward. This way you don't hurt your knees, and you have a solid continuous connection with your root at all times. The root/internal energy does not transfer through twisted knees.

Absolutely no grounding in his circle walking.

I guess it all depends on your goals and what your looking to learn. Edited March 3, 2013 by JustBHappy

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

Don't need to, the videos are quite clear. I looked into studying with him years ago and saw the same bright red warning flags. If people practice like that, the chance of knee problems is extremely high. If one is going to be living and learning in Taipei, there are much better teachers available in my opinion, but like I said it depends on what your goals are and what your trying to learn. For me, I have no questions for him and no desire to learn and emulate his style.

The proof is in the pudding, if you're into it then do it, and see how your knees feel or try walking the circle like that and see how rooted you are. Just watching He Jingan and his students take those huge long steps twisting the knee out, then pushing all their weight onto it makes me cringe. Knees are not made to used in that way. Great for the young kids doing external wushu, but certainly not internal Bagua in my opinion.

I have spent the last 2 1/2 decades training hard and seeking out internal masters in the east and the west. I have paid the price and reaped the rewards of living in Asia, trained with many 'masters' and learned many different methods and techniques. I've seen more than my fare share of charlatans. I know what works from my direct experience and hope to save others from wasted years and damaged knees. I am no master, and may never be one, I have a high high line for what I consider to be a master (if it wasn't entirely obvious by now! ). My main teacher has been practicing daily for over 45 years and I've never seen anyone close to being able to move and fight like him or generate such effortless internal power but he doesn't even consider himself a master! He has taught me the stepping method that heals my knees, opens up my leg channels and gives me a moving root like I've never thought possible. If you don't agree with my contributions to this thread, that's fine. If a few people get some benefit from my experience and avoid knee problems then it's all good.

 

Try out the 'He Jinghan' method for yourself and see how it works for you.

 

For me personally, if I was inclined towards Yin style Bagua, I would find a different teacher.

Yin style can be extremely powerful as evident from He JinBao and others. While his stepping is quite different from what I train, he clearly has it working for him. It's quite obvious in all his work that the authentic martial lineage has been preserved. Quite a contrast from He Jingan from what I see. For someone into famous teachers, he would be a good option in my opinion.

For every famous master you see on youtube, there are many more quietly living their lives and teaching a few serious students purely for the love of the art and desire to keep a living lineage from dying. These are the ones in my experience who take the time to really teach the nuts and bolts of their system, as opposed to the famous masters teaching quick, expensive seminars.

[mYTHmAKER]

Don't need to, the videos are quite clear. I looked into studying with him years ago and saw the same bright red warning flags. If people practice like that, the chance of knee problems is extremely high. If one is going to be living and learning in Taipei, there are much better teachers available in my opinion, but like I said it depends on what your goals are and what your trying to learn. For me, I have no questions for him and no desire to learn and emulate his style.

 

The proof is in the pudding, if you're into it then do it, and see how your knees feel or try walking the circle like that and see how rooted you are. Just watching He Jingan and his students take those huge long steps twisting the knee out, then pushing all their weight onto it makes me cringe. Knees are not made to used in that way. Great for the young kids doing external wushu, but certainly not internal Bagua in my opinion.

 

I have spent the last 2 1/2 decades training hard and seeking out internal masters in the east and the west. I have paid the price and reaped the rewards of living in Asia, trained with many 'masters' and learned many different methods and techniques. I've seen more than my fare share of charlatans. I know what works from my direct experience and hope to save others from wasted years and damaged knees. I am no master, and may never be one, I have a high high line for what I consider to be a master (if it wasn't entirely obvious by now! ). My main teacher has been practicing daily for over 45 years and I've never seen anyone close to being able to move and fight like him or generate such effortless internal power but he doesn't even consider himself a master! He has taught me the stepping method that heals my knees, opens up my leg channels and gives me a moving root like I've never thought possible. If you don't agree with my contributions to this thread, that's fine. If a few people get some benefit from my experience and avoid knee problems then it's all good.

 

Try out the 'He Jinghan' method for yourself and see how it works for you.

 

For me personally, if I was inclined towards Yin style Bagua, I would find a different teacher.

 

Yin style can be extremely powerful as evident from He JinBao and others. While his stepping is quite different from what I train, he clearly has it working for him. It's quite obvious in all his work that the authentic martial lineage has been preserved. Quite a contrast from He Jingan from what I see. For someone into famous teachers, he would be a good option in my opinion.

 

 

For every famous master you see on youtube, there are many more quietly living their lives and teaching a few serious students purely for the love of the art and desire to keep a living lineage from dying. These are the ones in my experience who take the time to really teach the nuts and bolts of their system, as opposed to the famous masters teaching quick, expensive seminars.

Could you post a video of someone who moves well in your style.

I like your posts and agree with you re knees.