BaGua Help

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for the feedback ^^ (or whatever degree was directed to my comment). I find the main shock to the knees is that there isn't the gradual pressure that comes from stepping with more of the whole foot. In time maybe I'll find some variation in qua movement to compensate a bit.

[JustBHappy]

Mythmaker I wish i could.

 

While there are plenty of videos online of good Liang and Cheng practitioners I have yet to see any that strictly follow the guidelines that have been such a jewel for myself and others. I will keep my eyes open and post them here when I see them or if my teacher(s) ever decide to open up I will post their vids.

[Walker]

Some of you might find this recent upload interesting: www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uZ8HX7Xp4 I could only skim it before I left the States, and can't watch it in China. But with so many practitioners in one clip, there must be somebody good, eh!

 

I'd like to see diagrams if you ever make them, JustBHappy.

 

Also, I agree that baguazhang practice can/should heal the knees and other parts of the body (though I should say that I also practice standing and seated meditation as well as a taiji form taught by the same teacher who teaches me bagua). It has been my experience that healing will occur if one has good tutelage, but that the opposite will happen if one's instructions are poor or if one misunderstands instructions and the teacher doesn't spot the mistake. I studied with one gentleman in Beijing under whose instruction a problem in my left leg gradually worsened until I was in major trouble and chronically in pain, occasionally bad enough to be tear jerking while I walked normally around the city. When things kept getting worse instead of better and I made up my mind that training with him was going to wreck my body, all he could offer when I parted was, "well, maybe your meridians aren't open." Aside from being able to state the obvious, unfortunately, he seemed to have little else to offer in my case. Then nearly a year later, when I moved to another city and started with my current teacher, the problem started to return with a vengeance. I thought maybe I just didn't have the body for bagua. However, in classic old man style, my teacher wordlessly shoved my body into as correct a posture as I could manage, and things instantly started to get better. Then began a healing process that has allowed many health issues to resolve.

[Astral Monk]

Some of you might find this recent upload interesting:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uZ8HX7Xp4

I could only skim it before I left the States, and can't watch it in China. But with so many practitioners in one clip, there must be somebody good, eh!

 

A real treasure of a vid for sure! Too bad there's no English titles.

 

8)

[JustBHappy]

Yeah some great Bagua masters on that vid for sure!

 

I don't think I'd recommend for beginners to walk like anyone in that video though. Crawl before you walk, walk before you fly!

 

So I busted out photoshop and made some diagrams to help explain my version of safe, rooted, and quick stepping. Keep in mind some basics like keeping the heel down on the rear foot, and brushing/rubbing the ankle/leg with each and every step.

 

Ok, so the first one is stepping with the outside foot. To stay grounded and save your knees, it's important to not step over the line formed by the heel-toe of the inside foot:

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

 

Oh, i get it. Its not moving your bones with your muscles through the world, but moving your world around your bones through your muscles.....

 

 

I do that some times, but i havent done it with a partner before

Edited March 6, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[baiqi]

JustBHappy, thanks a lot!

 

I'm waiting for the next diagrams, and I am sure they will be valuable for any baguazhang person.

 

Although I never had big knee problems due to baguazhang, I am feeling sometimes that my left knee is somewhat "weaker" than the other one. Not really painful, but the feeling that it might be if I go on like this. This is true especially after mud-walking stepping (I also walk the circle with "natural" stepping).

 

Your first diagram might actually be one of the components I was missing. Time will tell.

[GreytoWhite]

baiqi you may want to focus on one legged zhan zhuang stances for a moment until your left knee is stronger. I've blown out both knees but my left is considerably weaker. I've noticed significant improvement not only in my knee but also my ankle, hip, and lower back.

[baiqi]

Tanks, I am actually doing some san ti these days!

[GreytoWhite]

Ah then you should focus on your left leg as rear in santi.

[JustBHappy]

Ok, so now time for the inside foot.

To walk with the optimum rooting, power, and balance and to make sure that no damage is done to the body, the inside foot should not cross the line coming out from the heel at about a 45 degree angle. The inside foot draws up to the outside foot, then with the heels together you rotate the toes/ball out and step in a straight line.

The hsing-i players will recognize this step/stance, in fact the hands are similar also, but in Bagua the upper body is torqued toward the center of the circle.

 

 

It's extremely rare to see this guideline being followed, and sadly it's extremely important for taking care of the knees. The most common mistakes are crossing over with the inside foot or pointing the toes toward the center of the circle.

This first one puts both knees in bad positions, destroys the root, and slows down the stepping.

 

The other common mistake is turning the inside toes toward the center of the circle. This creates a dramatic 'cross step' which is a huge weakness from a martial standpoint and is torture on the knees as well as extremely slow.

 

 

[JustBHappy]

In the beginning, one should walk in a huge circle. This is the best way for gradually strengthening, stretching/opening, and habituating the body to circle walking in a safe manner. This point is very important. So this means you start out walking a circle with 20-25 or more steps. Then after some time you decrease the steps. Gradually you work your way towards walking the circle in 8 steps. Once the body is ready, you can turn a circle with 6, 4, or even 2 steps as in some changes, but don't try these until you are ready and have the instruction of a compassionate teacher that cares about your well being.

To walk a bigger circle, you simply step with a smaller angle on the outside foot. The inside foot doesn't change, the size is set from the angle of the outside foot. You may also notice that the same line is used as a guideline for the next step.

[SmallFrameGrandUltimateFist]

The basic hand position is fine, the idea is to produce coiling in the body. The lower body is actually more important and you should endeavour to stay as low as possible. This art along with Tai Ji and Xing Yi represent the three most difficult arts to master as they are internal. You will only be able to do so much without a teacher, but finding one will be equally challenging your going to have to do alot of research and visit many people.

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[joeblast]

I wonder what happened to that weight vest I bought my boy years ago. I should go raid his closet and swipe it, I seriously doubt he's using it at college...or used it much at all, for that matter! good links gerard!

A good article about the Heaven-Earth relationship.

nice water wheel, it looks familiar, eh?

 

Edited March 27, 2013 by joeblast

[JustBHappy]

Yeah a progressive method of slowly adding weight to your vest sounds like a good idea. I played with it to find the max i could handle at the time, but I was much more hard-core in those days. These days I'm more into the internal aspects and less of the conditioning.

 

My first vest was somewhere around 20-25 KG as I remember. I maybe took a few blocks of lead out of it at first, or during weight vest conditioning class but I ended up buying another vest afterwards that weighed even more. I think the recommendation was for roughly 1/4 of your weight minimum. So if you weigh 100KG you use a vest that is 25KG. I never did buy one of those nice comfy commercial vests, they were just too expensive and hard to get at the time. I also remember that at the time, the commercial vests were much much lighter, that of course could have changed by now.

 

I never liked ankle weights. Ankle weights seem like a good way to damage the knees so I've always avoided them like the plague. I train for rooting and power, not so much for snappy kicks. I learned early on how easily a kicker can be destroyed. I absolutely understand why many of my Bagua teachers have stressed the you never kick above the knee except during practice/demos.

I got to say it though, if ones stepping technique is incorrect then they're much more likely to inflict some damage on the knees when they add more weight. So depending on ones style or technique it may not be a good idea. We gotta take care of our knees first and foremost in my opinion.

[zerostao]

i agree about the ankle weights (and i cant wait to take off my one ankle weight this sunday)

b4 i used 55 pounds which woulda been 1/3 my body weight at that time.

this time around gonna go with 40 pounds in one of those commercial comfy vests and i will wear weighted gloves.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

You guys are great!

Helps to keep everyone motivated and energized to hear how you're taking it to the next level. Great stuff.

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

It all depends on your level of fitness going in and what your looking to gain from it. You can do almost anything with a vest on, but of course it won't be easy. Like I said before, pay attention to the alignment of your knees before pushing weight onto them or you're asking for trouble. I also recommend toning down the quick waist turns. The vest creates a bit of momentum on its own and you may find yourself rotating farther than your spine is ready to go at the time.

I personally don't go any lower than the point where I can keep the rear heel on the floor when pushing the weight forward. This is the reason why some schools/teachers of Bagua have the "walking up/down the ramp exercise" so you can develop the extreme flexibility in the ankle and calves to keep the foot flat and rooted on an inclined surface. (it's also rumored to be a "ching gong" lightness skill practice) This is a nice safeguard against injury, you won't go any lower than what your body is ready to handle.

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard