Feels like Death -shamatha before bed

[gatito]

Hi again TI

 

It also occurs to me that when talking about nirvikalpa samadhi, we may be comparing apples and bananas.

 

Also, it's not my experience that Consciousness is ever shattered.

 

However, you would really need to sit down with Sri Nisgardatta to clarify what he was pointing to himself.

 

G

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

Consciousness "shatters" because one tends to percieve consciousness in "layers" (or as worlds).. Just like the concept of meditation (or going into deeper states), in shattering, you realize that everything is the same "layer" (or integrated) and accessible.

 

The early times going in to "nirvikalpa samadhi" can feel like being sucked, pulled or falling into a void. This is particularly true when pulled in by a guru.

 

 

Hi Jeff,

You know, what you have written makes no sense to me. Especially if primordial consciousness is infinite, timeless and incapable of being shattered.

 

You speak like you have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi. Is this so or are you just regurgitaing something your read somewhere?

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi again TI

 

It also occurs to me that when talking about nirvikalpa samadhi, we may be comparing apples and bananas.

 

Also, it's not my experience that Consciousness is ever shattered.

 

However, you would really need to sit down with Sri Nisgardatta to clarify what he was pointing to himself.

 

G

 

Hi Gatito,

I think I understand Nisardatta now. He says "focus on the "I AM"". The I AM is the ego, the small self, in the medulla. Nisargadatta says that the I AM is the door. He says that one must go beyond the door, beyond the I AM. Shattering consciousness is shattering the small self's consciousness, the ego. It is like dying. You pass out. There is no more consciousness. But, as Nisargatta is pointing out, there is something much larger beyond all of that which is always conscious, eternal, aware, infinite.

 

Nisargatta's final message to the world was "Make friends with the life force". This seemed strange to me when I read that in his last book. He really emphasized the vital breath, the role it plays.

 

In my new understanding, the reason the universe exists is because the vital breath is flowing outwards from the source at the medulla. Reversing this vital breath is the key to going back to the beyond..

 

TI

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

You know, what you have written makes no sense to me. Especially if primordial consciousness is infinite, timeless and incapable of being shattered.

 

You speak like you have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi. Is this so or are you just regurgitaing something your read somewhere?

 

TI

 

Hi TI,

 

It is just the perspective that is "shattered". Existence is percieved as layers or worlds, like thinking the "astral world" is separate from normal. Consciousness is much more like object oriented programming. Everything, from all percieved layers can be directly accessed. Just independent objects that we put together into a percieved form.

 

On the possibility of regurgitating... From our past discussions, you know me better than that.

 

On making friends with the "life force"... I definitely agree with that... I think you & I call her the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

 

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I make no claims about attaining anything. As you know, my concept of "enlightenment" is very high, infinite clarity (or silence) and infinite energy. I am just sharing (and also learning about) some experiences. I often ask questions to see if others are describing similar experiences. As your post above shows, words require shared perspective, and meanings are often "lost in the translation". Everyone debating the true meaning of the TTC on this forum is a perfect example of that.

 

Some clarification (or translations ) may be helpful...

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is not about "stopping the breath". It is about diving incredibly deep into consciousness. One goes beyond the realm (or layer) of form into formless consciousness. Since the "ego" is issues and thoughts of form, it can not stay with you for the trip. At this "depth", there is nothing of form (so no thoughts or cool lights). There is also no "energy" given, only additional clarity from "issues" or parts of the "ego" being striped away. Each "deep dive" helps strip a little more away. At the level of form, increased clarity does directly releate to improved energy flow. Stopping of the breath is the result of being so "deep". Also, many "pass out" the first few times diving so deep.

 

As to "building the golden body"... Visualing and seeing things is a product of the mind trying to translate the heart percieving overwhelming energy flow. Because of their clarity, the one building the golden body does not "see anything". To them, it feels like cellular (or as informer likes to say "quantum") energy vibrations that grow to 24/7. The minds of others who can see auras percieve this overwhelming energy flow as golden (or white) light.

 

Everyone have a good day.

 

[Fū Yue]

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is not about "stopping the breath". It is about diving incredibly deep into consciousness. One goes beyond the realm (or layer) of form into formless consciousness. Since the "ego" is issues and thoughts of form, it can not stay with you for the trip. At this "depth", there is nothing of form (so no thoughts or cool lights). There is also no "energy" given, only additional clarity from "issues" or parts of the "ego" being striped away. Each "deep dive" helps strip a little more away. At the level of form, increased clarity does directly releate to improved energy flow. Stopping of the breath is the result of being so "deep". Also, many "pass out" the first few times diving so deep.

 

As to "building the golden body"... Visualing and seeing things is a product of the mind trying to translate the heart percieving overwhelming energy flow. Because of their clarity, the one building the golden body does not "see anything". To them, it feels like cellular (or as informer likes to say "quantum") energy vibrations that grow to 24/7. The minds of others who can see auras percieve this overwhelming energy flow as golden (or white) light.

 

Everyone have a good day.

 

 

When I experienced nirvikalpa samadhi for three or so days, there was definitely form. The form was emptiness. 'ego' didn't even apply to anything, there was only the world. The world itself was the Witness to 'my' consciousness, and I could hear the worlds... all the worlds, spinning and dancing about my consciousness which was in complete repose. The rhythm of space/time was my body. I could have left this world for anywhere, any other place in existence at any point in time, never to return, such was the degree of absolute freedom I was experiencing.

 

I would not equate deep formlessness only, with nirvikalpa, which is effortless absorption into the universe as consciousness. I went from a formless samadhi into this life and it different, though familiar. You could say it was a unity of formless/form. Formlessness alone will not lead to liberation.

 

As to your comments the production of the golden body... It is indescribable, so though I disagree i will refrain from commenting.

[Jeff]

I would not equate deep formlessness only, with nirvikalpa, which is effortless absorption into the universe as consciousness. I went from a formless samadhi into this life and it different, though familiar. You could say it was a unity of formless/form. Formlessness alone will not lead to liberation.

 

As to your comments the production of the golden body... It is indescribable, so though I disagree i will refrain from commenting.

 

I agree completely that "formlessness" alone will not lead to liberation. All forms of samadhi are just experiences along the way. The hard work is the letting go of "obstructions/issues", which grows clarity (or oneness).

 

On your disagreement on the golden body... I would very much appreciate your comments or any hints as to why you think I am wrong (pm or emails are also fine).

 

:-)

[gatito]

Hi Gatito,

I think I understand Nisardatta now. He says "focus on the "I AM"". The I AM is the ego, the small self, in the medulla. Nisargadatta says that the I AM is the door. He says that one must go beyond the door, beyond the I AM. Shattering consciousness is shattering the small self's consciousness, the ego. It is like dying. You pass out. There is no more consciousness. But, as Nisargatta is pointing out, there is something much larger beyond all of that which is always conscious, eternal, aware, infinite.

 

Nisargatta's final message to the world was "Make friends with the life force". This seemed strange to me when I read that in his last book. He really emphasized the vital breath, the role it plays.

 

In my new understanding, the reason the universe exists is because the vital breath is flowing outwards from the source at the medulla. Reversing this vital breath is the key to going back to the beyond..

 

TI

 

Hi TI

 

Sorry for the long delay in replying to this post, I'm still thinking about it because I've not studied the writings of Nisargadatta Marharaj, nor have any of my teachers used his writings to illustrate their own teachings.

 

One of my teachers said that one should go deep not wide, so I have only dipped into Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi (the other two well-known (and highly respected) contemporaries of Krishna Menon). However, my sense is that all three had different teaching styles and while I have a sense of what Nisargardatta is pointing to here, I really cannot be certain enough to comment beyond saying that my sense is that the "I am" to which Nisargardatta refers is Consciousness/Awareness, which is in deed always conscious, eternal, aware, infinite. This being the case, I'd reiterate that it is only necessary to explore your present experience.

 

Also, at this point, I'd make the comment that, in my own direct experience, there is no reason that the universe exists.

 

Regarding the penultimate paragraph of your post, I see this as pointing towards something that could be explored through the "yoga nidra" of either Swami J or of Richard Miller, as this may address your samskaras.

 

Finally, if you really want to explore the teachings of Sri Nisargadatta, I'd suggest that you could start by contacting one of his living disciples: Stephen Wolinsky would probabably be a good starting point. Again, I cannot stress strongly enough the aid which a living teacher is able to provide. Find one who walks the walk and walk away and find another if they don't - although it strikes me that that advice is superfluous.

 

G

 

EDIT:- Please note the bolded penultimate paragraph that has been updated to better reflect my position regarding yoga nidra in the light of a recent thread posted on the forum - to which I will not be responding.

 

Tibetan_Ice has been notified of this edit by PM.

Edited July 20, 2015 by gatito

[Tibetan_Ice]

[gatito]

Hi Gatito

 

I have just found a very interesting bit of information about this experience. And it is even in keeping with the Advaita Vedanta, but it is from Ramana..

 

 

link: http://sri-ramana-ma...re-in-self.html

 

 

 

That is exactly what has happened to me on several occaisions now. I will not die! I should go through with it.!!!

 

Then, later on the web page, this is said:

 

 

 

It all makes sense to me now.

A long time ago I discovered a channel from the brow which leads downwards to the chest. It is the same channel that appears when I roll my eyes up, put my tongue on the soft palatte and then suck in and downwards from the brow, pretending to fall asleep. If I go too far downwards with the sucking motion, it feels like I will pass out or die. That's the channel. That's the jivanadi! Yahoo! Confirmation! Positive Identification!

 

I guess I have activated that channel through my practises. So now, by focusing on the breath, as it moves downwards as in the Anapansati practice which I do late at night (after midnight), the mind is easily shut off and the journey to the heart through the jivanadi commences! Hence, the feeling of imminent death. Hence the movement or sinking downwards, the panic, the fear.

 

I will have to go through with it. If I never post anything here again, it will mean that I have died..

 

TI

 

Hi TI

 

If you're planning your "death", you might also find this first-hand account from a living Sage helpful in preparing yourself for what you will encounter: -

 

 

How did you discover your real nature?

You are asking about the specifics in my case. Before I give you the details, I have to forewarn you that this is not a one-size-fits-all path to the truth. The way to the discovery of our true nature varies from one seeker to another. It may be a sudden and dramatic experience or a subtle, seemingly gradual path. The touchstone, in all cases, is the peace and understanding that prevails at the end of the road.

 

Although a first glimpse of reality is an event of cosmic proportions, it may remain unnoticed at first and work its way in the background of the mind until the egoistic structure collapses, just as a building severely damaged by an earthquake remains stand- ing for some time and collapses a few months later, gradually or suddenly. This effect is due to the fact that the glimpse does not belong to the mind. The mind, which until now was the slave of the ego, becomes the servant and lover of the eternal splendor that illuminates thoughts and perceptions. As a slave of the ego, the mind was the warden of the jail of time, space and causation; as a servant of the highest intelligence and a lover of the supreme beauty, it becomes the instrument of our liberation.

 

From Eternity Now by Francis Lucille

 

 

The rest of the excerpt, which goes into some detail, can be found here:-

 

http://www.francislu...g_enlightenment (www.francislucille.com/#awakening_enlightenment

 

However, be aware, that in most cases, this isn't the end of the story!

 

There's an interview conducted by Conscious TV a few years ago at a retreat held at Rupert Spira's home before he started teaching himself, during which Francis describes this in some detail: -

 

http://bcove.me/qccjzn5m

 

The term nirvikalpa samadhi isn't used but I'm sure you'll recognise what's being discussed.

 

G

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI

 

If you're planning your "death", you might also find this first-hand account from a living Sage helpful in preparing yourself for what you will encounter: -

 

The rest of the excerpt, which goes into some detail, can be found here:-

 

http://www.francislu...g_enlightenment (www.francislucille.com/#awakening_enlightenment

 

However, be aware, that in most cases, this isn't the end of the story!

 

There's an interview conducted by Conscious TV a few years ago at a retreat held at Rupert Spira's home before he started teaching himself, during which Francis describes this in some detail: -

 

http://bcove.me/qccjzn5m

 

The term nirvikalpa samadhi isn't used but I'm sure you'll recognise what's being discussed.

 

G

Hey Gatito

I love Francis Lucille. He is right on. I've studied his works.

Thanks for pointing out that link. ESPECIALLY THIS PART:

At this point, I felt that my death was imminent, and that this horrendous event would surely be triggered by any further letting go on my behalf, by any further welcoming of that beauty. I had reached a crucial point in my life. As a result of my spiritual search, the world and its objects had lost their attraction. I didnt really expect anything substantial from them. I was exclusively in love with the Absolute, and this love gave me the boldness to jump into the great void of death, to die for the sake of that beauty, now so close, that beauty which was calling me beyond the Sanskrit words.

 

As a result of this abandon, the intense terror which had been holding me instantaneously released its grip and changed into a flow of bodily sensations and thoughts which rapidly converged toward a single thought, the I-thought, just as the roots and the branches of a tree converge toward its single trunk. In an almost simultaneous apperception, the personal entity with which I was identifying revealed itself in its totality. I saw its superstructure, the thoughts originating from the I-concept and its infrastructure, the traces of my fears and desires at the physical level. Now the entire tree was contemplated by an impersonal eye, and both the superstructure of thoughts and the infrastructure of bodily sensations rapidly vanished, leaving the I-thought alone in the field of consciousness. For a few moments, the pure I-thought seemed to vacillate, just as the flame of an oil lamp running out of fuel, then vanished.

 

At that precise moment, the immortal background of Presence revealed itself in all its splendor.

Excerpt from Eternity Now, by Francis Lucille

 

Thank you too for the video link. I always enjoy listening to Francis because he is like a surgeon, so clear and precise. I kind of feel sorry for Rupert though.. because he kind of falls apart at the end of the interview..

 

The question is not "Who am I?", the question is "What knows that I am?".

 

TI

Edited July 7, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[gatito]

Hey Gatito

I love Francis Lucille. He is right on. I've studied his works.

Thanks for pointing out that link. ESPECIALLY THIS PART:

 

 

Thank you too for the video link. I always enjoy listening to Francis because he is like a surgeon, so clear and precise. I kind of feel sorry for Rupert though.. because he kind of falls apart at the end of the interview..

 

The question is not "Who am I?", the question is "What knows that I am?".

 

TI

 

Hey TI!

 

That''s not Rupert!

 

This is Rupert :-

 

 

G

[snbeings]

Hey Tibetan,

I know of this experience off and on from my own meanderings in these kinds of meditations. Basically what happens, is you as subjective awareness (the real you in a sense) becomes loosened from the head area (third eye center) and can now vertically drop down to enter the MDT (heart center) as well as the LDT (navel center).

 

I'm not sure which one you were dropping into initially, however I have experienced dropping this way that you have described, into the heart center or source of thought. Sort of like a portal into blackness, but with eyes open everything is One, and there is no 'I' there ...so yes there would be fear stirring up of the mind about this because the mind is no longer in That.

 

I think you would get the biggest kick out of all things Anadi(Aziz Kristof) and A.H. Almaas both of which correlate to your experience in this thread. They basically break it down into alot more detail than Nisargadatta and Ramana's stuff which tends to get cyclically repetitive and on the intellectual level.

 

I found that alot of the nondual stuff has a neo-nondual aspect to it in that alot of the new breed of teachers/authors basically stop at Awareness prior to mind and the bliss thats there.... but the old schooler non-dualists speak of channels opening, source of thought, kundalini, rainbow bodies and so much more.

 

But regardless, the mind/thoughts/I construct is ultimately not you so all reactions to these experiences are mind based.

 

Hey By the way, thanks for even starting this thread. This info here is AWESOME!!!!! I've been looking for the last year and a half trying to find reference to a channel which is where thought travels from the source in the chest, up to the head and back, and then having awareness enter that channel. I did soooo much research and haven't found many references until this post.

Edited July 7, 2012 by snbeings

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hey TI!

 

That''s not Rupert!

 

This is Rupert :-

 

 

G

 

Hi Gatito

Oh, that is Rupert Spiro. Although they were using Ruper Spiro's house for the Francis Lucille interview, the interviewer was someone else.. Thanks for clarifying.

 

You know, I watched that video with Rupert Spiro and I think he missed the point and is simply regurgitating an unclear understanding, or is speaking figuratively. There is another discussion here, because right-brain awareness is unbounded, like the imagination. There may be merit in realizing that and not mistaking it for true realization. But that is another discussion..

 

In that video Rupert says that you cannot find the "I", that it is simply unbounded awareness.

 

I disagree. Self realization is a three step process. First, you find the small "I", which is aware of objects and forms. That "I" is in the medulla. It is the watcher. It realizes thoughts and phenomenon. It has access to the linear left-brain and the multi-dimensional right brain. It has a specific location and you can find it. All phenomenon of the physical world, thoughts, sensations, feelings etc pass to this small "I". Think about it. How else would "we" know anything and interact with the outside world, the body, the sensations etc. The big "I" which is in the heart is also aware of everything the small "I" is aware of, but it is also aware of much more. The big "I" connects to the small "I" through the jivanadi/atmanadi channel.

 

Then, when this small "I" falls down into the hole in the heart through that channel, which feels like death, death of the ego or psyche, according to Ramana, the ego is dissolved, the vasanas and karmas are all cleared and the person functions from the vantage point of universal consciousness.

 

But can you see my point? There is an intermediary step of the existence of a small "I", which can be found, has a location (the medulla), and is the key (according to both Ramana and Nisargadatta). If the small "I" could not be found, then how then could Nisargadatta repeatedly say "Focus on the feeling of "I AM"" and then say that true reality is beyond it, the small "I" being the doorway. That's why I believe Ramana's process of self-inquiry is to first say "whom is having this thought", which focuses on the small "I", and next to ask "Who am I". First you go to the junction of the small "I", the medulla, and then from there, you find the second connection to the heart, where the indestructible drop (Buddhist) lives..

 

So jumping directly into "there is no I" or "you can't find the I" as Rupert and most neo-advaitits are saying, is misleading. The small "I" does have a center and it does have a sense of "I". It is also surrounded by golden light. And, it can't focus on itself or watch itself because it is the part that watches. With reference to itself, it can only be aware of the fact that it exists and emits a golden light. But you can recede your awareness or attention backwards into it and abide there, which is a wonderful peaceful thing to do. And, if you do that long enough, that is when it drops down into the spiritual heart, and makes you feel like you are about to die.

 

My opinion and interpretation based on my experiences at this time..

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi snbeings

Thank you for your comments!

 

Hey Tibetan,

I know of this experience off and on from my own meanderings in these kinds of meditations. Basically what happens, is you as subjective awareness (the real you in a sense) becomes loosened from the head area (third eye center) and can now vertically drop down to enter the MDT (heart center) as well as the LDT (navel center).

 

I'm not sure which one you were dropping into initially, however I have experienced dropping this way that you have described, into the heart center or source of thought. Sort of like a portal into blackness, but with eyes open everything is One, and there is no 'I' there ...so yes there would be fear stirring up of the mind about this because the mind is no longer in That.

 

I think you would get the biggest kick out of all things Anadi(Aziz Kristof) and A.H. Almaas both of which correlate to your experience in this thread. They basically break it down into alot more detail than Nisargadatta and Ramana's stuff which tends to get cyclically repetitive and on the intellectual level.

 

I found that alot of the nondual stuff has a neo-nondual aspect to it in that alot of the new breed of teachers/authors basically stop at Awareness prior to mind and the bliss thats there.... but the old schooler non-dualists speak of channels opening, source of thought, kundalini, rainbow bodies and so much more.

 

But regardless, the mind/thoughts/I construct is ultimately not you so all reactions to these experiences are mind based.

 

Hey By the way, thanks for even starting this thread. This info here is AWESOME!!!!! I've been looking for the last year and a half trying to find reference to a channel which is where thought travels from the source in the chest, up to the head and back, and then having awareness enter that channel. I did soooo much research and haven't found many references until this post.

 

Where can I find more information about "things Anadi(Aziz Kristof) and A.H. Almaas "?

I see.. http://www.amazon.com/Book-Enlightenment-Anadi/dp/1456539922/ref=pd_sxp_f_r

 

Which book by Anadi do you recommend?

 

Which book by Almaas? (I like books that tell you the theory, the practices and the experiences..)

http://www.amazon.com/A.-H.-Almaas/e/B001JP8IN6

 

Thank you so much.

TI

[gatito]

Hi Gatito

Oh, that is Rupert Spiro. Although they were using Ruper Spiro's house for the Francis Lucille interview, the interviewer was someone else.. Thanks for clarifying.

 

You know, I watched that video with Rupert Spiro and I think he missed the point and is simply regurgitating an unclear understanding, or is speaking figuratively. There is another discussion here, because right-brain awareness is unbounded, like the imagination. There may be merit in realizing that and not mistaking it for true realization. But that is another discussion..

 

In that video Rupert says that you cannot find the "I", that it is simply unbounded awareness.

 

I disagree. Self realization is a three step process. First, you find the small "I", which is aware of objects and forms. That "I" is in the medulla. It is the watcher. It realizes thoughts and phenomenon. It has access to the linear left-brain and the multi-dimensional right brain. It has a specific location and you can find it. All phenomenon of the physical world, thoughts, sensations, feelings etc pass to this small "I". Think about it. How else would "we" know anything and interact with the outside world, the body, the sensations etc. The big "I" which is in the heart is also aware of everything the small "I" is aware of, but it is also aware of much more. The big "I" connects to the small "I" through the jivanadi/atmanadi channel.

 

Then, when this small "I" falls down into the hole in the heart through that channel, which feels like death, death of the ego or psyche, according to Ramana, the ego is dissolved, the vasanas and karmas are all cleared and the person functions from the vantage point of universal consciousness.

 

But can you see my point? There is an intermediary step of the existence of a small "I", which can be found, has a location (the medulla), and is the key (according to both Ramana and Nisargadatta). If the small "I" could not be found, then how then could Nisargadatta repeatedly say "Focus on the feeling of "I AM"" and then say that true reality is beyond it, the small "I" being the doorway. That's why I believe Ramana's process of self-inquiry is to first say "whom is having this thought", which focuses on the small "I", and next to ask "Who am I". First you go to the junction of the small "I", the medulla, and then from there, you find the second connection to the heart, where the indestructible drop (Buddhist) lives..

 

So jumping directly into "there is no I" or "you can't find the I" as Rupert and most neo-advaitits are saying, is misleading. The small "I" does have a center and it does have a sense of "I". It is also surrounded by golden light. And, it can't focus on itself or watch itself because it is the part that watches. With reference to itself, it can only be aware of the fact that it exists and emits a golden light. But you can recede your awareness or attention backwards into it and abide there, which is a wonderful peaceful thing to do. And, if you do that long enough, that is when it drops down into the spiritual heart, and makes you feel like you are about to die.

 

My opinion and interpretation based on my experiences at this time..

 

TI

 

Hi TI

 

I'm not sure that I can help you with this much more, as my own direct experience tallies with what Rupert and Francis describe and I don''t experience more than one "I" myself.

 

As I've said before, I can't really comment with any authority on Ramana and Nisargadatta because I haven't studied their writings. I'd also clarify the fact that neither Rupert nor Francis are neo-advaitans. A good working definition of neo-advaita is "Teaching which does not recognize the existence of teacher, seeker, path, etc and which attempts to communicate the nature of reality directly" (see www.advaita.org.uk/teachers/teachers.htm - http://www.advaita.o...rs/teachers.htm ). These teachers (who deny the value or the existence of teachers) are invariably self taught. (One shining exception is Scott Killoby who had the humility and intelligence to become one of Greg Goode's students in order to refine his own understanding and teaching.)

 

You'll find more detail on lineage here:-

 

Direct Path Teachers: - http://www.advaita.o...direct_path.htm

 

Disciples of Atmanada Krishna Menon:- http://www.advaita.o...a_parampara.htm

 

My own background includes both the progressive and the direct path and from this perspective, I'd suggest that you seem to be trying to mix the two together, which doesn't really work and will probably lead to great confusion. Even within the direct path teachings of Krishna Menon alone, there are warnings that one should not mix the various prakriyas and no attempt should be made to reconcile them with each other, as it is confusing, counterproductive and unnecessary. Trying to reconcile different teachers is a recipe for disaster.

 

"Go deep, not wide" Wide can come later - if you can be bothered later.

 

G

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI

 

I'm not sure that I can help you with this much more, as my own direct experience tallies with what Rupert and Francis describe and I don''t experience more than one "I" myself.

 

As I've said before, I can't really comment with any authority on Ramana and Nisargadatta because I haven't studied their writings. I'd also clarify the fact that neither Rupert nor Francis are neo-advaitans. A good working definition of neo-advaita is "Teaching which does not recognize the existence of teacher, seeker, path, etc and which attempts to communicate the nature of reality directly" (see www.advaita.org.uk/teachers/teachers.htm - http://www.advaita.o...rs/teachers.htm ). These teachers (who deny the value or the existence of teachers) are invariably self taught. (One shining exception is Scott Killoby who had the humility and intelligence to become one of Greg Goode's students in order to refine his own understanding and teaching.)

 

You'll find more detail on lineage here:-

 

Direct Path Teachers: - http://www.advaita.o...direct_path.htm

 

Disciples of Atmanada Krishna Menon:- http://www.advaita.o...a_parampara.htm

 

My own background includes both the progressive and the direct path and from this perspective, I'd suggest that you seem to be trying to mix the two together, which doesn't really work and will probably lead to great confusion. Even within the direct path teachings of Krishna Menon alone, there are warnings that one should not mix the various prakriyas and no attempt should be made to reconcile them with each other, as it is confusing, counterproductive and unnecessary. Trying to reconcile different teachers is a recipe for disaster.

 

"Go deep, not wide" Wide can come later - if you can be bothered later.

 

G

 

Hi Gatito,

Thank you for the links and the clarification.

Sorry, I guess I should have defined neo-advaitist. The neo-advaitist 'teachers' that I'm referring to are from the lineage of Nisargadatta to some extent.

The list of authors and books that I have are these:

Sailor Bob:

What's Wrong With Right Now -unless you think about it

 

Only THAT

 

John Wheeler:

Clear in Your Heart

Awakening to the Natural State

Right here, Right now

The Light Behind Consciousness

 

Stephen Wingate:

Dogs, Cats & Dreams of Spiritual Awakening

The Outrageous Myths of Enlightenment

 

Rodney Stevens:

A Vastness All Around

 

And, to some extent I consider Ken Wilbur to be neo-advaitist.

 

I believe that spiritual teachings have commonalities that are described in differing terminology. I believe that there are universal spiritual laws and having the opportunity of the internet, to have all these teachings easily available at one's disposal presents the chance to read, analyze and distill.

 

Now, let us examine your statement about not mixing the prakriyas.. because I've adopted the Buddhist tenet of examining everything with great detail.

 

What is a prakriya? The definition I found is that a prakriya is a 'teaching method'. Is that correct?

Well then I would have to agree with you. It is best that a teaching method be clear and concise.

 

But wait, I found this commentary about prakriyas:

 

This next quote about the prakriyas is from provided by Ananda Wood, a disciple of the sage Atmananda Krishna Menon (1883 - 1959).

 

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/atmananda/atmananda8a.htm

Using the teacher's prakriyas, or any other prakriyas that may be discovered or invented, the sAdhaka must keep returning back -- from ego's straying, to the truth that has been shown. By thus refreshing the visualization, over and over again, the truth keeps being emphasized, at the expense of mistaken ego.

 

As lingering impurities of ego get removed, the visualization gets to be steadier and less easily obscured. Eventually, the ego gets completely eradicated and the visualization stays completely steady and uninterrupted. That unbroken seeing of the truth is called the 'sahaja' or 'natural' state. The truth is then spontaneously understood, without the need of any clarifying effort, no matter what may happen or appear. In such a sahaja or natural state, the confused sense of a 'sAdhaka' or a 'seeker' is no more. This confusion has then gone -- by seeing it as a facade of partial personality, whose changing tricks of made-up show have made no real difference. In place of this personal confusion, the 'j~nAni' or the 'sage' has irrevocably taken charge, upon a changeless stand that is utterly impartial and spontaneous.

 

To describe the steadying of visualization into irrevocable spontaneity, Shri Atmananda spoke of 'establishment' in truth. And towards that establishment, he encouraged his disciples to discover or invent new prakriyas for themselves.

 

Hmm.. It would appear that this person is saying the Krishna Menon is in support of discovering and even "inventing" new prakriyas.. Is that correct? So, just to be clear, we can discover and invent prakriyas but we cannot mix them? But isn't mixing them a form of invention?

 

I don't think this discussion is worth pursuing as dialectics sometimes results in circular logic..

 

Thanks again for your comments and links.

TI

[gatito]

[snbeings]

Hi snbeings

Thank you for your comments!

 

 

 

Where can I find more information about "things Anadi(Aziz Kristof) and A.H. Almaas "?

I see.. http://www.amazon.com/Book-Enlightenment-Anadi/dp/1456539922/ref=pd_sxp_f_r

 

Which book by Anadi do you recommend?

 

Which book by Almaas? (I like books that tell you the theory, the practices and the experiences..)

http://www.amazon.com/A.-H.-Almaas/e/B001JP8IN6

 

Thank you so much.

TI

For anadi's stuff, his human buddha book is awesome as is the book of enlightenment. His site as teachings and recordings which all directly describe the things of this thread. http://www.anaditeaching.com

 

For Almaas stuff i got spacecruiser inquiry and the inner journey home.

 

There's alot of talk on the interwebs that ramana's and nisargadatta's realizations were not the end all be all. That they realized awareness and source of thought but not the absolute through the ldt, nor did they grow and realize the soul body. This stuff gets extremely deep and technical.

[Tibetan_Ice]

For anadi's stuff, his human buddha book is awesome as is the book of enlightenment. His site as teachings and recordings which all directly describe the things of this thread. http://www.anaditeaching.com

 

For Almaas stuff i got spacecruiser inquiry and the inner journey home.

 

There's alot of talk on the interwebs that ramana's and nisargadatta's realizations were not the end all be all. That they realized awareness and source of thought but not the absolute through the ldt, nor did they grow and realize the soul body. This stuff gets extremely deep and technical.

Hi snbeings

Thank you so much for the links and the info. I've spent a few hours reviewing Anadi's website, reading some pages, listening to some podcasts.. It does seem very in depth and has some very interesting ideas and practices, such as the practice of turning the attention around and focusing on the 'me'. The strangest thing that happened was that as I was checking out the Book of Enlightenment on an Amazon preview, I felt that I had read all the previews before. It was uncanny. So, I've ordered the book.

The videos that I've found on youtube by A H Almaas are also very intersting. He seems very authentic.

Thank you so much for the information. I am grateful.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi,

Well I finally found some information on the "Feels Like Death" phenomenon from Alan Wallace.

 

From "Mind In The Balance" by Alan Wallace:

In the intructions in the previous chapter, you invert your awareness upon itself, concentrating intensely with each inhalation; and with each exhalation you gently release your awareness while cutting off thoughts as soon as you become aware of them. In this way, involuntary thoughts gradually subside and the mind settles in its natural state. As you settle deeper and deeper in this still, luminous state of consciousness, all memories fade away and you ordinary sense of personal identity disappears. You may have the terrifying sensation that you are dropping into an abyss where you will lose your very identity. If this feeling occurs, simply be aware of the fear without being caught in it. This isn't easy, but it is important to rise to the challenge. As you grow more and more accustomed to this practice, you will see for yourself that there is nothing to fear in that luminous darkness. All that has been lost is your conceptually constructed sense of your own self. This is an artificial construct. As you mind settles in its natural state, the sense of "I am" is gradually dismantled. You have begun to explore the deep space of the mind, using the inner telescope of highly focused, clear samadhi.

 

Although I have had several more occasions when the "feels like death" phenomenon came calling during meditations, I have not had the guts to go through with it as my body seems to react beforehand. I will have to work on conquering my fear.

 

 

In that same book, Dr. Wallace writes this about "Merrell-Wolff":

In his initial spiritual awakening, which occured a few days after this insight, Merrell-Wolff reversed the outward flow of conciousness so that it returned toward its source without projecting an object in the mind, no matter how subtle. This inversion of consciousness, he reported, occurs at the moment of shifting from ordinary dualistic consciousness to the transcendent state which he experienced as the ground of being. In this shift, he reported, "one consciousness blacks out and immeditately another takes over." In the transcendent state, the dualism between subject and object disappears so that one feels a sense of unity with whatever is experienced. One's own sense of personal identity dissolves into a sense of space, without any subject-object distinctions. He experienced a sense of depth, abstraction, and great universality in the thoughts that arose while in that state...

 

Although I do not think that this experience described by Merrell-Wolff is the same as the one Alan Wallace describes, because I believe that Merrell-Wolff is describing the transition that occurs when you enter the void, in which there is still a subject (I) and an object (the void), and because I have made that transition many times into the void without fear or feeling that the "I" was being decimated, I do find the concept of transitioning from one state to another being referred to as a mental blackout to have its merits.

 

Here is a link to a web page about Merrell-Wolff:

 

http://www.integralscience.org/gsc/

 

His story of awakening is fascinating and seems to have its roots in the Direct Path, Advaita Vedanta..

 

I especially found this excerpt of interest:

3. There are three, not two, organs of knowledge: perception, conception, and introception.

The third fundamental of Wolff's philosophy is an affirmation of a third way of knowing, or a third organ of knowledge. Secular philosophy in the west admits only two modes of knowledge: perception and conception. Perception includes all sensory knowledge we derive from seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, and tasting. Conception includes all knowledge we derive from thought, memory, imagination, and the like. If we admit only these two forms of knowledge, then our knowledge of reality is forever limited to our hypothetical, conceptual speculations about what reality might be "behind" our perceptual appearances. If we are limited to conception and perception alone, any certain, categorical knowledge of reality and truth is not possible, and there is no rational way to understand the possibility of mystical realization or transcendental consciousness. The third fundamental, however, affirms the existence of a third way of knowing, which Wolff calls "introception". The introceptive capacity is normally latent or partially latent, but can be activated partially or fully, through intentional effort, spontaneously or both. When activated, introception provides immediate, categorical knowledge that transcends the subject-object distinction, i.e., it is not a relational knowledge of something by something else, but a knowledge through identity in which there is only knowledge itself that includes and transcends both knower and known. The third fundamental, in short, affirms that, in addition to the capacity of perception and conception, there is also a capacity for transcendental knowledge.

 

I think the key point to all of this is 'reversing the flow of consciousness back to the source'. And, luckily, Alan Wallace has described the techniques that seem to work. It's just a matter of practice.

 

TI

[Disabled Not Broken]

I've had quite a few of these experiences, and like yourself, was very reluctant of 'fully letting go'

 

After a few times, I started getting 'De-sensitized' to the 'almost dying' feeling... [or maybe at the time, I just didn't give a dang, anymore]... & 'went with it'

 

When your 'inner mind' has the preconceived conclusion that you will no longer fight it when it comes - the actual 'non_death', is pretty anti-climatic

 

To Completely be "Poured Out" is a prerequisite to being "Completely Re-Filled, Again")

[hydrogen]

Hi, Ti,

 

I think you might actually have a ego-death if you let go fear of death.

 

I'm not a experienced practioner. I got my first realization by flute. I used to an atheist. I didn't believe any God or astral travel stuff. After knowing who I was (I have doubt now about that) I was angry. three days later, I had a similar experience (not exact). I felt death was coming. I said that I had enough of life, and screamed "let me die". I actually died.

 

When I woke up, I found myself was a single cell in a totally dark place. I saw a faint light in far away. I crawled towards that light. The light became brighter and brighter. Finally I came out of the hole or tunnel I can't remember exactly. I felt I could breath again. I was so tired that I felt asleep again. I then woke up by thunder. I woke up and saw the sun. I realized that life wasn't that bad. I somehow reconstruct myself back into a human little by little, sense by sense. I slept between each contruction.

 

When I finally got out of bed. It was the most beautiful day in my life. I smell lilac every where. Everything looked brilliant and wonderful. I was so hungery. I ran downstairs and found some bread and twizzler, which I used to hate. I ate them. They were delicious like I never tasted before. I felt like God.

 

I then did something terrible, that I didn't want fully understand yet.

 

When the night came, I became frightened. Anyway I experienced something like Bardo in the Tibetan book of death. I went trial of crucifixion. I'm still try to remember exactly what happened. My sense of time, space and vision was funny.

 

It seemed that I could make people disappear and appear. I could make a fleet of cars disappear in a blink of eye. I think at that time I only had the power to effect my own world, not others'.

 

I think if you're welcome death, you might not die like I did, you might go into the next level, because I'm sure you have higher virtue than me after your years of practice.

 

In order to achieve imortality, you must willingly die.

Edited November 13, 2012 by hydrogen

[RongzomFan]

Hi

I've been into spiritual practices and meditating for years. I've experienced samadhis, some jhanas, strange experiences and other things, so I'm not a beginner. I have been studying anapanasati much more deeply, the variations and techniques, for the last month or so.

 

A week ago I received the book called "Stilling the Mind" by Alan Wallace. I think it is a great book because it answered many of my questions and showed me a few pointers in Shamatha practice. The advice I took to heart was "Rest in the natural state, without distraction, without grasping". Just "let it be". Good advice. The other advice I took was that you can't get enlightened with an unstable mind. Hence, Shamatha.

 

So, during my meditations this week, instead of repulsing the visions, pushing away the thoughts and returning to my object of concentration, I decided to just "let it be". When I did that, I did notice that everything eventually dissolves into the substrate consciousness. I also noticed that I got much deeper than I usually get, as exmplified by the luminous brilliant colors; I seemed to have passed through most states or stages fairly quickly.. the heat stage, the visions stage (lucid dreams-visions), the pulsing light at the brow, the golden rainbow light of self (don't know if that is a stage), awareness watching awareness.. even watching slices of reality like cascading panes or slices appear as if frozen in time..

 

Last night, after reading about the technique of "breathing in attentiveness and exhaling relaxation" in another one of Alan Wallace's book about Dream Yoga, I decided to do that for my before-bed meditation at 12:15 am.

 

At first, I just sat and watched my thoughts without grasping and I noticed that there weren't that many. Then, I turned my attention to my breath and then started breathing in attentiveness, and totally relaxing the body on the exhales.

 

I did this for about 5 minutes when all of a sudden, my whole being shifted. I felt this movement, but it felt like the whole locus of the conscious mind had disengaged from it's usual location. It felt like a swoon, like I was about to pass out, or that my entire conscious field was diminishing and sinking rapidly. This feeling was very intense. This was accompanied by the vision of very black space growing larger. I felt like I was dying. There was immense fear. I held on for a bit and noticed that my heart was beating faster. I also noticed that whole top of my head had changed into a different texture and I could feel droplets of sweat starting to form. I also noticed that the watcher, the place where my location of feeling of self turned into an array of golden and rainbow lights streaming forth.

 

Due to the fear, I had to stop, but I did make an effort to go as far as I could and pick up as many impressions and sensations as I could before I stopped.

 

Now, I suspect that the increase in heart rate and sweating top-of-the-head is due to some kind of fear reaction. But what I would like to know is this:

 

What is that experience? Is this the start of nirvikalpa samadhi? Is this what occurs when one breaks through the substrate consciousness and goes into the beyond? It feels like a death experience. It does not feel good in any sense of the word. It is very scary for me, like "I" is going to be anihalated. At the same time it was awesome. I look at it like "Death came calling".

 

But I won't really die, will I? I will probably fall over, bang my head and then "wake up" hours later with numbness in the various body parts, feeling quite disoriented, right?

 

I'm familiar with astral travel, and believe me, this "death experience" far surpasses any astral projection.

 

I recall that Ramana had an experience of death when he was in school and this was what apparently enlightened him. Is this what is happening to me? Are there any equivalent stories or recounts of this kind of experience in Buddhism? Have you experienced nirvikalpa samadhi? Does this sound like it, or at least the start of it?

 

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

 

TI

 

*Edit: Ha ha, figured out how to edit the title.. You have to use the full editor..

 

 

You need to look into the lucid dreaming or OBE forums.

 

You are entering altered states.

 

No big deal dude.

Edited November 14, 2012 by alwayson