Feels like Death -shamatha before bed

[Tibetan_Ice]

I am familiar with what you describe Tibetan_Ice. Indeed leading up to nirvikalpa samadhi is a death like experience. You're on the right track. Keep going.

 

I was a Hindu monk for a few years and I'm glad you found in your research what Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said about nirvikalpa samadhi. He also says a few more things about it in a different section of the book that I think you would find interesting.

 

Here's a link and the quote.

 

http://ebooks.gutenb.../mws_ch-52.html

 

"Many people think of the realization of timeless, formless, spaceless Parasiva, nirvikalpa samadhi, as the most blissful of all blissful states, the opening of the heavens, the descent of the Gods, as a moment of supreme, sublime joyousness; whereas I have found it to be more like cut glass, diamond-dust darshan, a psychic surgery, not a blissful experience at all, but really a kind of near-death experience resulting in total transformation. The bliss that is often taught as a final attainment is actually another attainment, Satchidananda, an aftermath of nirvikalpa samadhi, and a "before-math." This means that Satchidananda, savikalpa samadhi, may be attained early on by souls pure in heart. It also means that one need not gauge the highest attainment on the basis of bliss, which it transcends."

 

There is a bit more on that page if you're interested.

 

When you begin to touch into this, as you are. Coming to the brink of nirvikalpa. There can be many physical symptoms that come along with it as an aftermath. Of course these may not apply to you, since everyone is different. And over the course of my spiritual practices I have experienced many bizarre physical symptoms after coming out of deep meditation. Most likely the burning up of certain vasanas. I get bad headaches and my body has a difficult time getting warm. My hands and feet become ice cold. No hot showers or warm food or heating warms me up. It took 2.5 hours the other day to "return to normal".

 

The reason for this is because as you meditate and your going into nirvikalpa. The energy/heat within your body begins to withdraw into the top of the head. Until eventually one is absorbed and the energy completely leaves through the top of ones head.

 

I was taught this as a monk to withdraw this energy consciously but it happens naturally when someone is going deeper. I observe this in my meditations and can feel my extremeties becoming colder and colder. Then I come to a point where my sense of self begins to feel like it is dissolving. Not in a blissful this is wonderful way how most people think of it. Because in order to experience bliss there must be an experiencer. Nirvikalpa is when the experiencer is dissolved temporarily. When someone first begins to touch into this but not fully absorbed. There can be a degree of fear that arises. You realize this is a lot more real than I thought, ha. Your sense of self no longer has any footing. Nothing to grab on to and feel safe and secure. Even the mind uses the higher experiences of bliss to identify and hold onto. It is quite difficult for most to go beyond these wonderful experiences. I have noticed that the ego uses everything in its power to stop you from going any deeper. But everytime you go back to that edge, there will be less and less fear until one day. Awareness disappears. No more identity, no mind, no universe, no earth, no people, no higher energies, no deities, no bliss, no experience.

 

Hi KotKnowing

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences!

What you have posted really resonates with my experience, even the part about the heat withdrawing into the head. That would explain the sweat droplets forming and the jelly-like sensations at the top of the head. And the fear too. Yes, the feeling of "self" had no more footing! And yes, after the experience, it was the first time I felt a cool pool of sensation around my heart chakra, which I had never felt before..

 

And you know, I've read the "Merging With Shiva" book a few times now.. I even bought the hard copy. It is a great reference.

 

It is very cool to have someone on the forum that is experiencing nirvikalpa samadhi! I had tingles all the way through reading your post; I can tell that there is something very profound in your being and level or realization.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what techniques or type of meditations do you do to enter Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

 

Thanks again for your post.

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Again sounds like a meditative altered state.

 

real nirvikalpa samadhi is attained through karmamudra.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704

[Tibetan_Ice]

Again sounds like a meditative altered state.

 

real nirvikalpa samadhi is attained through karmamudra.

 

http://www.dharmawhe...php?f=40&t=4704

 

Hi Alwayson

 

Have you changed your view on "karmamudra"? A while ago you wrote this at AYP:

 

link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=3692

Reply author: alwayson2

Replied on: Jan 15 2010 2:25:05 PM

Message:

My current position is that karmamudra is nonsense.

 

And sex has nothing to do with kundalini.

 

So, obviously, you've changed your position(s).. Right?

 

...and it was so funny to see Yogani being told, when he tried to propagate his ignorance as truth..

 

Reply author: Konchok Ösel Dorje

Replied on: Nov 08 2009 10:03:39 PM

Message:

Yogani is incorrect here.

 

 

and then this:

Reply author: Konchok Ösel Dorje

Replied on: Nov 08 2009 10:03:39 PM

Message:

Yogani is incorrect here.

 

Reply author: mimirom

Replied on: Nov 09 2009 5:22:07 PM

Message:

Could you specify, please?

 

Thank you.

 

Reply author: Konchok Ösel Dorje

Replied on: Nov 09 2009 11:30:05 PM

Message:

Karmamudra comes from Indian non-monastics, like Saraha and Tilika, but is much older than that. Traditionally outcaste women and prostitutes would be gurus in their own right, and the karmamudra practice would be an even exchange. Karmamudra does not resemble AYP tantra. It involves visualizations and prerequisite mastery of the channels and bindu, and involves difficult pranayama. Both yogi and yogini must be proficient in these. Not to say AYP tantra is not wonderful. It certainly is. Karmamudra's not just screwing around after reading the kamasutra nor is it just bliss.

 

 

But that's another story.. back to topic..

 

What kind of disturbs me about the fact that you posted a link to a mass of buddhist rhetoric and complicated writings, is that you didn't appear to read it yourself, or understand it. As I understand it, Malcolm has some kind of significance or stature. I'm not familiar with his qualifications/abilities/accomplishments.. BUT, at the very end of that DW thread Malcolm writes this:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704

 

In general, the Sakya school and Nyingma schools place much more importance on erotic practices than do the Kagyus. However, in the Nyingma school they are not generally considered indispensable for awakening in this lifetime. In most of the Tantric lineages within Sakya, they are considered indispensable for awakening in this lifetime. The exception to this would be the oral instructions of Naropa's Khechari -- where a type of pranāyāma practice is said to result in a state of bliss equivalent to the bliss of sexual congress and therefore obviates the need for a consort (also partially accounting, I feel, for the reason the Naropa Khechari instructions have attained the popularity they have).

 

So, if your rather terse comment is in some way implying that karmamudra is the only way to achieve nirvikalpa samadhi, I believe you have missed or ignored kundalini, tummo, third eye practices and other practices which all use the same energy/heat. You don't need a consort to awaken.

 

And I have my doubts as to whether or not nirvikalpa samadhi produces awakening, perhaps after many repeated experiences.. ?

 

Was Ramana or Tolle or even Buddha engaged in erotic practices when they became awakened? I think not.

 

The other thing that I think is funny is that the practices that I was performing are from the Nyingma school, Padmasambhava, as taught by Alan Wallace, Awareness of Awareness.. And according to Malcolm, "However, in the Nyingma school they [erotic practices] are not generally considered indispensable for awakening in this lifetime."

 

However, there is no need to pursue this topic any more. I have my answer from Alan Wallace. I found it in his podcast #8 on this page:

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

He describes that event of descending into the substrate consciousness, that it will occur with the breath meditation, shamatha or other Dzogchen techniques. He describes the dissolution of the self, the feeling of death and even compares the resultant state to the state of death.

 

Anyway, thanks for jerking my chain again.

 

TI

[Birch]

Is this the abject terror thing? It's not like a panic attack (which is bad enough but doesn't contain the feeling of certainty of death, 'just' the fear of it).

[RongzomFan]

Tolle or even Buddha engaged in erotic practices when they became awakened? I think not.

 

At the most Ramana or Tolle recognized the nature of the mind. That is not considered the end of the path. In fact, thats just the beginning.

 

And Buddha was held to have engaged in karmamudra in the tantric tradition. He did karmamudra with Sujata at the bodhi tree.

 

http://books.google....mamudra&f=false

Edited December 10, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Hi Alwayson

 

Have you changed your view on "karmamudra"? A while ago you wrote this at AYP:

 

 

Yes I'm a believer in karmamudra, although I don't have the empowerments to actually test it out.

 

Meditation is just contrived and conceptual, from the Vajrayana point of view, even if the conceptuality is subtle.

Edited December 10, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

that event of descending into the substrate consciousness, that it will occur with the breath meditation, shamatha or other Dzogchen techniques. He describes the dissolution of the self, the feeling of death and even compares the resultant state to the state of death.

 

You do realize shamatha is not Dzogchen right??

 

Start listening to Alan Wallace at 1:25

 

"not Vajrayana. Not Dzogchen."

 

Edited December 10, 2012 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

At the most Ramana or Tolle recognized the nature of the mind. That is not considered the end of the path. In fact, thats just the beginning.

 

And Buddha was held to have engaged in karmamudra in the tantric tradition. He did karmamudra with Sujata at the bodhi tree.

 

http://books.google....mamudra&f=false

 

This is the first time I hear that Buddha got enlightened by having sex with the milk maid under the Bodhi tree. I also see you've edited your statement..

 

In all the stories and movies I've seen about the Buddha's enlightenment, it was not mentioned once. As a matter of fact, doesn't the story go that Buddha ate food from the milk maid, regained his strength, his disciples left him because they believed that he had lost it, whereupon Buddha then sat under the Bhodi tree swearing not to get up until he was enlightened?

 

I see that there is a debate..

 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=H6a4dfH1Z-MC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=karmamudra+with+Sujata+buddha&source=bl&ots=PDhrxM2sy7&sig=PtxTJcnHr_TY2O6MvEcBRN0VI-o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pW7FUJmYEcjziQKtsoD4Dg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=karmamudra%20with%20Sujata%20buddha&f=false

 

We must also remember that most accounts credit Shakymuna Buddha with attaining ultimate realzation during his lifetime without relying on a consort.

 

Kind of a useless discussion.. isn't it?

[Tibetan_Ice]

You do realize shamatha is not Dzogchen right??

 

Start listening to Alan Wallace at 1:25

 

"not Vajrayana. Not Dzogchen."

 

 

Do me a favor. Why don't you listen to the podcast link I posted first, before you imply my ignorance.. You will see that a retreat newbie asks about taking a bob down into the substrate consciousness during shamatha practice..

 

However, what you don't know about, because I did not post it, is that I have had 6 experiences of descending into the substrate consciousness, using the various techniques.. Breath watching will do it, loading the inbreaths with vividness and relaxing on the exhales will do it, Awareness Watching Awareness will do it, Sitting at the hole watching thoughts like a cat will do it, sitting back and watching thoughts soar like a bird will also do it. For me, the main ingredient seems to be non-grasping, non-averting, just letting be, and late at night when the mind is not so active.

 

And, yes, I know those aren't Dzogchen practices, they are preliminary Dzochen practices for settling the mind (shamatha).

 

You know, I'm getting tired of your theme of "you are an idiot, you know nothing"..

 

Why don't you post some of your achievements or experiences so that we can pull them apart? Might be good for you..

Edited December 10, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Do me a favor. Why don't you listen to the podcast link I posted first, before you imply my ignorance.. You will see that a retreat newbie asks about taking a bob down into the substrate consciousness during shamatha practice..

However, what you don't know about, because I did not post it, is that I have had 6 experiences of descending into the substrate consciousness, using the various techniques.. Breath watching will do it, loading the inbreaths with vividness and relaxing on the exhales will do it, Awareness Watching Awareness will do it, Sitting at the hole watching thoughts like a cat will do it, sitting back and watching thoughts soar like a bird will also do it. For me, the main ingredient seems to be non-grasping, non-averting, just letting be, and late at night when the mind is not so active.

 

This is a complete non sequitur.

 

What does this have to do with shamatha not being Dzogchen??

 

You know, I'm getting tired of your theme of "you are an idiot, you know nothing"..

 

If you are confusing the most preliminary Buddhist practice (shamatha) with the highest Buddhist teaching (Dzogchen), thats a problem.

Edited December 10, 2012 by alwayson

[C T]

He liked his own post.

Edited December 10, 2012 by C T

[NotKnowing]

Hi KotKnowing

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences!

What you have posted really resonates with my experience, even the part about the heat withdrawing into the head. That would explain the sweat droplets forming and the jelly-like sensations at the top of the head. And the fear too. Yes, the feeling of "self" had no more footing! And yes, after the experience, it was the first time I felt a cool pool of sensation around my heart chakra, which I had never felt before..

 

And you know, I've read the "Merging With Shiva" book a few times now.. I even bought the hard copy. It is a great reference.

 

It is very cool to have someone on the forum that is experiencing nirvikalpa samadhi! I had tingles all the way through reading your post; I can tell that there is something very profound in your being and level or realization.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what techniques or type of meditations do you do to enter Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

 

Thanks again for your post.

 

TI

 

I'm glad my post was of some validation. Great to hear that you own a copy of "Merging with Siva".

 

My main meditation practice is to be aware of awareness. Very simple. To gradually let go of everything and only be aware of awareness. Of course I use some techniques and other practices before I begin to remain poised as simply awareness.

 

I start by feeling the energy/heat in the body, tingling in the nerve currents and the spine. I regulate the breath while doing this. Once I feel centered in the spine and present totally in the Now. I begin contemplation, there comes a point where it feels like my entire being is a question. It isn't a verbal or thought question.

 

It's similar to "What am I?" but I experience it as a multitude of inner questions as my entire being. I realize I know nothing. I don't know what this dimension is, I don't know what or who I am. I don't know how I'm existing. What is Existence and what is Awareness? It shatters every piece of knowledge I think I know about anything, from the simpliest gross form to the most subtle. This triggers something that makes my sense of self lose its footing like I mentioned previously. As I let go into that not knowingness and absolute stillness I begin to feel the energy in my body slowly withdraw into the head. Breathing naturally slows down. Then I remain solely as aware of awareness. Which will lead anyone eventually into Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Of course It won't happen every time, because you can't will yourself into it. It just happens.

 

Besides that main meditation. I also practice a different kind of meditation. Where I go deep into the energy of creation and aim to enter into Savikalpa Samadhi. I also feel as though celibacy/transmutation is the most powerful tool anyone has in their spiritual arsenal. It is the rocket fuel to propell you deep into meditation. But I do realize this isn't always appropriate for everyone and not always appropriate for certain periods in ones life.

 

However I am not a teacher or some kind of master. Just a being that yearns to cognize reality and enter into Nirvikalpa Samadhi as many times as I can in this incarnation. I'm fairly young and have a life filled with karma that I need to resolve and many lessons to learn ahead of me.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Edited December 11, 2012 by NotKnowing

[Tibetan_Ice]

I'm glad my post was of some validation. Great to hear that you own a copy of "Merging with Siva".

 

My main meditation practice is to be aware of awareness. Very simple. To gradually let go of everything and only be aware of awareness. Of course I use some techniques and other practices before I begin to remain poised as simply awareness.

 

I start by feeling the energy/heat in the body, tingling in the nerve currents and the spine. I regulate the breath while doing this. Once I feel centered in the spine and present totally in the Now. I begin contemplation, there comes a point where it feels like my entire being is a question. It isn't a verbal or thought question.

 

It's similar to "What am I?" but I experience it as a multitude of inner questions as my entire being. I realize I know nothing. I don't know what this dimension is, I don't know what or who I am. I don't know how I'm existing. What is Existence and what is Awareness? It shatters every piece of knowledge I think I know about anything, from the simpliest gross form to the most subtle. This triggers something that makes my sense of self lose its footing like I mentioned previously. As I let go into that not knowingness and absolute stillness I begin to feel the energy in my body slowly withdraw into the head. Breathing naturally slows down. Then I remain solely as aware of awareness. Which will lead anyone eventually into Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Of course It won't happen every time, because you can't will yourself into it. It just happens.

 

Besides that main meditation. I also practice a different kind of meditation. Where I go deep into the energy of creation and aim to enter into Savikalpa Samadhi. I also feel as though celibacy/transmutation is the most powerful tool anyone has in their spiritual arsenal. It is the rocket fuel to propell you deep into meditation. But I do realize this isn't always appropriate for everyone and not always appropriate for certain periods in ones life.

 

However I am not a teacher or some kind of master. Just a being that yearns to cognize reality and enter into Nirvikalpa Samadhi as many times as I can in this incarnation. I'm fairly young and have a life filled with karma that I need to resolve and many lessons to learn ahead of me.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

Hi NotKnowing

 

And thank you for sharing your methods. They are very similar to what I was doing, except that I was watching thoughts without grasping or averting, centered in the head, and this I let go on the out breaths.. And then yes, eventually the whole energy field in the head collapses down, like shrinking golden light.

 

Great appreciation..

 

TI