The Seven Sages of Bamboo Grove

[Harmonious Emptiness]

TTB member Shazi mentioned this rebellious group of Taoists in the Neiye forum and I think there ought to be a topic for further learning about this inspiring group of artists/Taoists/free thinkers.

 

Perhaps people can share some links to their poetry or other information.

 

Here is a link about The Seven Sages of Bamboo Grove: My link

 

I haven't been able to find much of the poetry of Ruan Ji online, so if anyone knows where to find it.. do tell..!

 

 

 

As a side discussion (though I'm sure it would be a controversial statement for some), I must say that reading a bit about them, they reminded me a lot of the early hip-hop culture which sought to escape the tyranny of their surroundings and live a life of free and honest expression through music, dance, and art at a time when the superficiality of disco had taken over "the scene" and small groups of free thinkers started their own club outdoors, finding their expression in playful poetry of freestyle rhyming and highly physical dancing that involved much fluid body movements spinning around (not unlike some internal arts) as well as graffiti art requiring a minimum of brush strokes. There was also a system that sought/seeks to control the expression of culture and cage it into the Frankenstein like control model. The arts served the purpose, for both the Seven Sages of Bamboo Grove as well as the early hip-hop culture, to avoid being controlled by a heartless system, and to live from one's true self, even learning more about one's true self by practicing arts of true and immediate expression, enjoying their right to be and live as a real human being [not, necessarily, to be confused with the Real Human or Immortal of Taoism].

 

 

edit to add:

Of course, hip-hop culture did not seek to transcend desire, ego, and "the 5 theives" of Taoist parlance, though in a way it did in that it sought to transcend the absurd level of importance that these things held in the other scenes at the time (mid 70's to early 80's).

 

(feel free not to comment about the hip-hop aspect.. just trying to add a practical level to the topic)

Edited June 16, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

I recall reading a little about them a long time ago but my recall was even less than you provided in the link.

 

And yes, I think it would be neat if anyone would provide anything written by or about them so that we can discuss them and their understandings.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

found this cctv documentary on them:

 

 

there's a second part in the side bar at the link

[Marblehead]

Excellent!!!

 

I added both to my "Favorites" and will listen to them later.

 

Thanks much.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Excellent!!!

 

I added both to my "Favorites" and will listen to them later.

 

Thanks much.

 

ha. my mistake. There's 7 parts, all in the side bars

Edited June 17, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

ha. my mistake. There's 7 parts, all in the side bars

Hehehe. My misfortune. Now I will have to listen to all seven. I'll do that on some dark and stormy night.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Well, after seeing the documentary, I can't say I'm particularly impressed. Courageous? yes. Talented? yes. Inspiring artists? yes. Taoist masters? Not as far as they let on at least, though maybe in terms of "philosophical Taoism."

 

However, I still have yet to read more than a few paragraphs of their writing so, personally, I wouldn't make my decision about them on the cctv documentary without hearing their own words.

 

Brings an interesting discussion though, about if there is a place for hedonism in Taoism. I think the "not too much" advice sort of answers that, but there may be more to it, especially considering some of the writing in the Leih Tzu.

 

Overall though, they did hold down the fort on rejecting the "think whatever Confucius tells you think, or the emperor, or your parents, or some other guideline tells you to think." Obviously a dangerous road on either side for different reasons. Courage vs. conformity.. I'd rather be a hedonist than need permission for every "correct action and thought."

 

I guess I'm still torn. But who needs role models.. everyone has a different road to walk for themselves. Thankfully, this is not such a mysterious doctrine in today's world...

[Marblehead]

Overall though, they did hold down the fort on rejecting the "think whatever Confucius tells you think, or the emperor, or your parents, or some other guideline tells you to think." Obviously a dangerous road on either side for different reasons. Courage vs. conformity.. I'd rather be a hedonist than need permission for every "correct action and thought."

Yes, I have picked that up already.

 

Ah!, courage vs. conformity. Choices.

 

I'll be back to this as soon as I have something to say.

[shazi]

Well, after seeing the documentary, I can't say I'm particularly impressed. Courageous? yes. Talented? yes. Inspiring artists? yes. Taoist masters? Not as far as they let on at least, though maybe in terms of "philosophical Taoism."

...

Brings an interesting discussion though, about if there is a place for hedonism in Taoism. I think the "not too much" advice sort of answers that, but there may be more to it, especially considering some of the writing in the Leih Tzu.

...

I guess I'm still torn. But who needs role models.. everyone has a different road to walk for themselves. Thankfully, this is not such a mysterious doctrine in today's world...

In my impression, the hedonism was symbolic more than anything. The seven worthies represented a departure from prevailing prescriptive beliefs coming from any system, including its own. One looks into the Zhuangzi as edited by guoxiang and one gets the impression of a very eclectic lifestyle and set of practices.

 

In that vein, if we are to think that taoism is a single, cohesive system of practice and thought...well, I'm pretty sure it isn't. Not at least as developed into the xuanxue movement, later to influence zen buddhism. Xuanxue was the 'dark learning' of the seven worthies.

 

If we go back to the jixia or huanglao periods of daoism, the period of time where the breathing and inner cultivation practices are clearly documented, there seems to be more of a discipline, a need to cultivate oneself, to center oneself, physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally. Such discipline is missing from xuanxue.

 

I especially like your comment about not needing role models. I've been disappointed ultimately with any 'master', daoist, zen, hindu, or otherwise. While they may have some very good wisdom and practice, at some point, the student outgrows the master -- not in a Way of arrogance, but that the Way for each person varies like the flow of a river. One must find one's own center, one's own practice, and cultivate it.

 

I realize that this is controversial. But the Neiye opened my mind to the idea that the sage/shengren is not an external entity, but rather, the one who has harvested and cultivated chi/xing within one's own 'center'/zhong/中. English doesn't quite have a word for this.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

In my impression, the hedonism was symbolic more than anything. The seven worthies represented a departure from prevailing prescriptive beliefs coming from any system, including its own. One looks into the Zhuangzi as edited by guoxiang and one gets the impression of a very eclectic lifestyle and set of practices.

 

In that vein, if we are to think that taoism is a single, cohesive system of practice and thought...well, I'm pretty sure it isn't. Not at least as developed into the xuanxue movement, later to influence zen buddhism. Xuanxue was the 'dark learning' of the seven worthies.

 

 

Very interesting point. Looking at the wikipedia explanation:

"The name compounds xuan 玄 "black, dark; mysterious, profound, abstruse, arcane," occurs in the first chapter of the Lao-tzu. Xue 學 "study, learn, learning," literally the "learning" or "study" of the "arcane," "mysterious," or "profound."

 

So I would guess that xuanxue was probably a bit more than merely the philosophy as it looked into the mysteries, but as you say, they were maybe not as much concerned with their own cultivation as with simply living in Tao as a way of life/way of being.

 

Do you know if XuanXue would have been familiar with the Neiye?

How do you differentiate between the Chuang-Laoists and XuanXue, or is there any?

 

If we go back to the jixia or huanglao periods of daoism, the period of time where the breathing and inner cultivation practices are clearly documented, there seems to be more of a discipline, a need to cultivate oneself, to center oneself, physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally. Such discipline is missing from xuanxue.

 

I especially like your comment about not needing role models. I've been disappointed ultimately with any 'master', daoist, zen, hindu, or otherwise. While they may have some very good wisdom and practice, at some point, the student outgrows the master -- not in a Way of arrogance, but that the Way for each person varies like the flow of a river. One must find one's own center, one's own practice, and cultivate it.

 

I realize that this is controversial. But the Neiye opened my mind to the idea that the sage/shengren is not an external entity, but rather, the one who has harvested and cultivated chi/xing within one's own 'center'/zhong/中. English doesn't quite have a word for this.

 

An interesting way to read the Tao Te Ching as well, that the Sage is like the witness within. I guess Sheng has some connotations to Shen/Spirit and holiness. Are there some other connotations to it which you find useful in understanding/explaining/translating a Sheng-man?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Very interesting point. Looking at the wikipedia explanation:

"The name compounds xuan 玄 "black, dark; mysterious, profound, abstruse, arcane," occurs in the first chapter of the Lao-tzu. Xue 學 "study, learn, learning," literally the "learning" or "study" of the "arcane," "mysterious," or "profound."

 

So I would guess that xuanxue was probably a bit more than merely the philosophy as it looked into the mysteries, but as you say, they were maybe not as much concerned with their own cultivation as with simply living in Tao as a way of life/way of being.

 

Do you know if XuanXue would have been familiar with the Neiye?

How do you differentiate between the Chuang-Laoists and XuanXue, or is there any?

 

....

 

An interesting way to read the Tao Te Ching as well, that the Sage is like the witness within. I guess Sheng has some connotations to Shen/Spirit and holiness. Are there some other connotations to it which you find useful in understanding/explaining/translating a Sheng-man?

 

ba-bump.

 

 

 

Does anyone know about XuanXue and/or Shengren?

[Marblehead]

ba-bump.

I'm glad you bumped this. I really should get back to this. Thanks for the reminder.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm glad you bumped this. I really should get back to this. Thanks for the reminder.

 

You rang?

[GrandmasterP]

Many thanks Harmonious Emptiness.

Most interesting.

[Marblehead]

You rang?

Yes, I did. Did you see the date on my last post? Almost a whole freakin' year!!! Time flies when shit happens.

 

Okay, I will do some reading of the boys this evening so that I can pretend that I know something about them.

[Apech]

I'd like to know more about Xuanxue

[Marblehead]

I just finished Part 2 of the video. I think it can be said that they were not Laoist but rather Chuangists.

 

I'll be back.

[GrandmasterP]

Watching Part 1 I felt to be missing something due to lack of Chinese.

Is there any significance in their 'nicknames'?

The Aussie voiceover guy just reels those off...

" also known as......." without saying what the nickname signified apart from maybe that mandolin guy when voiceover man says..

" X is the name of the Chinese Mandolin".

So was that guy nicknamed ' Mandolin' because he played the mandolin or was the mandolin named for that guy?

And...

What is the translation of all seven of those guys nicknames?

Does anyone know?

Edited April 11, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

The Mandolin was named after him.

 

I don't know the answers to your other questions yet but I'll try to pick up on the answers.

[Marblehead]

The Mandolin was named after him.

 

I don't know the answers to your other questions yet but I'll try to pick up on the answers.

The (mandolin) named after him (Ruan Xian) is called the "pipa".

 

I retract my statement above of them not being Laoists. They had no choice - do (take a position at court) or die.

[Marblehead]

Interesting (for me) comment in Part 5. Paraphrase: Whenever the three were together they would travel together. They never planned their trip, they just set out.

 

 

That's the way I did most of my vacations when I was in the Army. I would set a direction and whatever happened after that was totally spontaneous.

[GrandmasterP]

MH did you catch that riff in episode 1 where the voiceover script has it ( paraphrased)...

" There is a retreat into hedonism in societies wherein citizens fear their rulers."

 

I have watched the first episode twice now and, quite frankly; find it slightly chilling.

' Official' Chinese documentaries sometimes have that effect on me.

There was that recent mega TV documentary series on China released to coincide with the Olympics.

Stunning imagery , stark subtext.

 

I have come away, thus far; with the distinct impression that this ' Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove' production is as much about the current Sino- Political worldview as ever it is about the politics and philosophies of the times it purports to depict.

Edited April 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I just finished Part 7. There is an error with Part 6 so tha it stops half way through.

 

Yes, It is my impression too that this series is more centered on politics as opposed to 'pure' philosophy and the arts.

 

My first conclusion is that the Seven had much more complicated lives than I had my initial understanding of.

 

Regretfully, because of the audio quality of the series I know that I have missed much. I will try to find something in writing so that I can gain a better understanding.

 

But still, it is a good series and speaks well to the thoughts of the time.

 

Of course, Confucianism was dominant during this period so Taoist thought was frowned upon.

 

 

And yes, during that period the ruler had supreme power so it is understandable that the citizens would fear their ruler. One must go into hiding in order to avoid the ruler. And sure, in hiding one would seek a "good life", a life opposite of what they were hiding from (the Confucian mentality).

[GrandmasterP]

Interesting (or synchronicity?) that just this morning, elsewhere on here; one of the chums has begun a thread on conformity.

Those seven sages lads were privileged 'by' and well connected enough 'to' the Confucian hegemony of their day.

Most had married well and held sinecure paid government posts that required neither work nor attendance at the office so that they could chill out and do their own thing in the grove.

I doubt that they actually lived there in that bamboo grove.

It seems to have been some sort of frat or lodge meeting set up.

Kinda like the shriners but with stringed instruments.

Maybe they got together on holiday or for recreational musical soirees.

" Hey guys, we can put the show on right here! In the Bamboo Grove."

I'm reminded of some privileged kids of celebrity parents I once met.

They were hanging out at the DL's winter compound near Hubli in South India.

They were lucky to be able to have been born who they were, where they were and when.

These bamboo grove guys seem to have been similarly privileged and singularly blessed to be born to a rank and in a time that permitted their 'non- conformity' to the Confucian norm that succored and supported them.

 

Was the sub text of that docu series...

" By all means do your own thing but leave the state alone, and then it will leave you alone. After all, it is the state that permits your non conformity. Be happy but BE VERY CAREFUL!"

 

All heil that most benevolent of polities.

 

:-)

Edited April 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

The other fact to maybe bear in mind when listening to those Chinese tenured academics pontificating on the films is that as here in the west all Chinese academic journals are peer refereed.

Unlike here in the West the referees of Chinese academic tend to be Politburo.

Nothing written by any Chinese academic ever sees the light of day in print unless it has been first censored and approved by the State.

Woe betide the Chinese academic who strays beyond the official Party line.

Losing her or his job would be the least of the troubles coming their way right down the pike.

 

Seen 'em all now.

 

Nasty!

 

:-(

Edited April 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP