How many Taoists are out there in the TTB....?

[Brian]

Perhaps those individuals who are following authentic taoist teachings rarely visit this site. And don't even bother posting. Why? Check out this research:

 

 

 

 

 

Well, that's cheery.

 

(Seems consistent with my observations, though, which just makes it more depressing, somehow...)

[Marblehead]

Well, that's cheery.

 

(Seems consistent with my observations, though, which just makes it more depressing, somehow...)

You are so depressing it's funny. Hehehe.

[Stosh]

Indeed, I happen to be owned one of those books which helps me out a great deal in learning the TTC.

 

In order to interpret the TTC accurately, I would think that the scholars will definitely follow the concept of Wu Wei to begin with. If the scholars do follow the most the basic concept of Wu Wei, do you think they would be bias in their interpretations....???

 

As some say, the 'devil is in the details'

I believe there is pedigree to versions of the texts

Right now I am thinking that the original authors

whoever they may have been, whether individual authors per text

or multiple authors per text

1 wrote in figurative language liable to misinterpretation

2 actually intended that misinterpretation could be likely !

3 may have had multiple angles on wu wei themselves.

 

The taoist tradition hit a bottleneck around the period in

which Confucianism flourished , (I forget the years but

they are debatable anyway)

And emerged as neo daoism which then had a buddhist flavor

( I wasnt actually there ..I just read that)

which had a strongly Laoist bias that hadnt been there earlier

SO..

Frankly , and as I see it Logically ..

I will never be able to say who got it 'right'and who gets it wrong

unless I see the meaning myself and verify the way it plays out in practice.

 

I can go on with further explanation and analogy but

I figure you can just enquire further

about what I didnt successfully say clearly

I hope my angle is clear enough

I believe absolutely no one,

based on what group they associate with

sangha, church ,temple tradition ,school diploma

reputation ,culture or even experience ...

but if what they say makes sense...

if what they say

resonates true with my personal experience...

them I deem credible.

Stosh

Edited July 12, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

...

 

... but if what they say makes sense...

if what they say

resonates true with my personal experience...

them I deem credible.

Stosh

That could equate to "The blind leading the blind."

 

Beware!

 

Hehehe.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

The taoist tradition hit a bottleneck around the period in

which Confucianism flourished , (I forget the years but

they are debatable anyway)

And emerged as neo daoism which then had a buddhist flavor

( I wasnt actually there ..I just read that)

which had a strongly Laoist bias that hadnt been there earlier

Stosh

 

 

Yes, I do aware of this period. That was the time about Taoism and Morality. The problem with that was the characters themselves. The confusion arrived from these two characters 道德(Tao Te) . Tao Te means "morality" in Confucian; but it means the "virtue of the Tao(principles)" in the Tao Te Ching. At the time, people had to redefine their own definition for the character 道(Tao).

 

Virtue of Tao is a description for those people who follow the principles of Tao. It seems like given them a little merit, for following the principles of Tao, by saying that they have the virtue of Tao. So to speak.

Edited July 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

That could equate to "The blind leading the blind."

 

Beware!

 

Hehehe.

 

Yeah, I see the difficulty with using my inexpert opinion

do decide whether the expert is right-good.

The same problem pops up all the time actually in all sorts of scenarios

is this a good car mechanic, product , service , etc.

Who should one believe?

We all know folks have their own agendas.

We all know other folks can be wronger than ourselves!

 

I once went to home depot to get some fertilizer for the lawn

I asked the dude there what would be a good one

he sold me a high nitrogen fertilizer.

I put it on the lawn and in a week the grass was a foot and a half high!

and golden yellow !

, it looked like the high plains !

I was expecting bison to roam through at any moment.

 

I was ticked off , not really at the dude,

I was ticked off at myself for being lazy

I had tried to shift the responsibility onto

someone who didnt give a hoot.

 

There is another issue in regards

to believing that folks know things

because they are following a tradition

 

When folks walk in one anothers footsteps

to be included with the "IN" crowd....

When the first dude steps in a pile of crap by accident

everyone else does too

And they all keep their mouth shut about it!

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Yes, I do aware of this period. That was the time about Taoism and Morality. The problem with that was the characters themselves. The confusion arrived from these two characters 道德(Tao Te) . Tao Te means "morality" in Confucian; but it means the "virtue of the Tao(principles)" in the Tao Te Ching. At the time, people had to redefine their own definition for the character 道(Tao).

 

Virtue of Tao is a description for those people who follow the principles of Tao. It seems like given them a little merit, for following the principles of Tao, by saying that they have the virtue of Tao. So to speak.

 

I think I get what you mean.

When I was initially looking into the subject I read some of the TTC

it was a confusing translation, and since I have a dislike

of even the remotest scent of magical connotation

( having serious resentment left over from catholocism and the folks purveying it)

I got to reading what other folks had to say about it from philosophical

and historical point of view, and then went back and read more,

( and other stuff like the Art of war..)

 

What I came away with was ,a respect for what all these dudes were

trying to DO, ( set up a civilized code of conduct that satisfied

the needs of the folks who would be following it ,

in light of what was really just plain true!)

The different daos of Confucious, Shen, Lao,Chuang, Tsun, etc.

Have aspects in common and also very significant differences.

Shen was a bit depressing , but I didnt read much on it

Lao and Chuang , personal, but vague and confusing

Confucious , political and too tradition based

Tsun tsu ,conflit based and impersonal( but beautifully constructed writing)

 

So anyway , maybe Twinner is right in calling my beliefs "Stoshism"

But I still FEEL like part of the family.

 

Have a nice weekend guys

 

Stosh

Edited July 13, 2012 by Stosh

[manitou]

I haven't a clue as to what a taoist is. All I know is I happened upon a copy of the TTC at a yard sale, bought it, and fell in love with it. I've read it so many times, along with other translations, that the words are internalized within me; when a situation arises, a paragraph immediately comes to mind. I merely love the mindset and what I perceive as the Truth contained within those chapters - unlike any other spiritual way that I've ever seen. It fits in perfectly with metaphysics, which has always been my path - once I climbed out of the form of Christianity...although the words of Jesus could certainly be considered taoist as well.

 

To me, it's just the Way Things Work. I've proven this to myself too many times to start doubting it now.

[flowing hands]

There is no such thing as a Taoist!! It is beyond description or definition. To bracket someone as Taoist is to loose what really is. We are all Taoists, thats all life and all that exists, in our own way, the great beauty of Tao. Remember Tao is just a word, but its description is beyond words.

 

Li Erh just spoke of what he understood and to give his description a name that we could use and try and understand; he called it Tao. To get hung up on the word is already loosing sight of what its all about IMO. The Tao existed before the DDJ and people and the universes lived and moved by the Tao. So they knew nothing of the DDJ but they were 'Taoists' so to speak. So to be a 'Taoist' you may never have come across the DDJ, but you are still a Taoist!!!!

[ChiDragon]

There is no such thing as a Taoist!! It is beyond description or definition. To bracket someone as Taoist is to loose what really is. We are all Taoists

So to be a 'Taoist' you may never have come across the DDJ, but you are still a Taoist!!!!

 

 

So, by your definition, a Taoist is just a member of the Universe or part of Nature....???

Edited July 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

So, by your definition, a Taoist is just a member of the Universe or part of Nature....???

 

that doesn't reflect anything FH said

 

he said there's no such thing as a taoist. it is beyond description or definition. so it is a mystic thing that you can not conceive of in a scholarly way because the scholarly mind is contrived compared to the mind of dao.

Edited July 17, 2012 by anamatva

[ChiDragon]

that doesn't reflect anything FH said

 

he said there's no such thing as a taoist.

 

Period...!!!

[mYTHmAKER]

[Protector]

Y'all act like you never seen a Taoist person before

Jaws all on the floor like ChiDragon to an ox threw it through your window

and started teaching about technical things, some stuff, and some more

you first were ignoring, then throwing the furniture (Ahh!)

It's the return of the... "Ah, wait, no way, you're kidding,

he didn't just say what I think he did, did he?"

And Lao Tsu said... nothing you idiots!

Lao Tsu's dead, he's locked in my basement! (Ha-ha!)

Taoist women love Sinfest

[*vocal turntable: chigga chigga chigga*]

"Sinfest is so awesome, him look at him,

Walkin around quoting his you-know-what

Replying the you-know-who," "Yeah, and he's so cute lol!"

Yeah, I probably got a couple of screws up in my head loose

But no worse, than when you forget to do the horse stance

Sometimes, I wanna get on forum and just let loose, but won't

cuz aftertaste would make me feel like a dead goose

"The Tao is like this, The Tao is like this

And if you're lucky, you might just give it a little squeeze"

And that's the message that we deliver to little kids

And expect them to know what Te in Tao Te Ching is

Of course they gonna know what meditation is

By the time they hit fourth grade

They re-watched the ATLA don't they?

"We ain't nothing but mammals.." Well, some of us cannibals

who cut other people open like cantaloupes

But if we can meditate with better thoughts on pillow folds

then there's no reason that the men and women can't evolve

But if you feel like I feel, I got the antidote

Horse stance I like most, nei gong thing that burns and crawls

 

[Chorus: (repeat 2X)]

 

'Cause I'm the Real Taoist, yes I'm the Real Taoist

All you other Real Taoists are just imitating

So won't the real Tao-ist please stand up,

please stand up, please stand up?

 

*Bleep* doesn't wanna do horse stance and write in the journal;

well I do, so fuck him and fuck you too!

You think I give a damn about credibility of F.Hands?

Half of you people don't even care, or do they?

"But Sin, what if he's not real, wouldn't it be weird?"

Who cares! It's not even a rap anymore,

So you can, go write a thread about fascism

Shit, Mythmaker better switch me chairs

so I can sit next to Immortal and Vmarco

and hear 'em argue over who loves Christianity more

I don't know what to put in this line, well gee

"Yeah, he's cool, but I'm not sure about his lineage, hee-hee!"

I should update my journal or just let it be

and explain why I don't have a lineage and you're like me [AHHH!]

I'm sick of you changing your oppinions, all you do is annoy me

so I have been sent here to destroy you [bzzzt]

And there's a million of us just like me

who horse stance like me; who just wu wei like me

wear blue like me; mud walk, talk and bark like me

and just might be the next best thing but not quite me!

 

[Chorus 4x]

'Cause I'm the Real Taoist, yes I'm the Real Taoist

All you other Real Taoists are just imitating

So won't the real Tao-ist please stand up,

please stand up, please stand up?

 

Ha ha

Guess there's a Weird Al in all of us

Fuck it, let's all do horse stance

[Sifu ReL]

 

 

 

 

So won't the real Tao-ist please stand up,

please stand up, please stand up?

 

Ha ha

Guess there's a Weird Al in all of us

Fuck it, let's all do horse stance

 

[konchog uma]

Period...!!!

 

no he continued in explanation of that concept actually

 

@sinfest: halarious! nice one

Edited July 18, 2012 by anamatva

[dawei]

The roots of Taoism go back beyond Lao Tzu

SO the TTC cant really be said to define it in total.

 

SPOT-ON... glad to see some reality comes to light...

 

 

 

There is no such thing as a Taoist!! It is beyond description or definition. To bracket someone as Taoist is to loose what really is. We are all Taoists, thats all life and all that exists, in our own way, the great beauty of Tao. Remember Tao is just a word, but its description is beyond words.

 

Li Erh just spoke of what he understood and to give his description a name that we could use and try and understand; he called it Tao. To get hung up on the word is already loosing sight of what its all about IMO. The Tao existed before the DDJ and people and the universes lived and moved by the Tao. So they knew nothing of the DDJ but they were 'Taoists' so to speak. So to be a 'Taoist' you may never have come across the DDJ, but you are still a Taoist!!!!

Both/And.. beyond mere words... why do we need to explain it over and over to some???

 

 

no he continued in explanation of that concept actually

Of course... but your beating your head against a reproving door... but your right.

[ChiDragon]

Some people do just read Chapter one and ignored the rest of the Chapters. That was quite alright for someone to understand the TTC superficially......

[Stosh]

Some people do just read Chapter one and ignored the rest of the Chapters. That was quite alright for someone to understand the TTC superficially......

About whom are you writing ?

I need to know if I can butt out or if Im already in.

Stosh

[Mokona]

Taoists have useful cultivation methods, that's where I get on the train, and where I get off. (Yay for Qigong and Meditation!)

[Marblehead]

Taoists have useful cultivation methods, that's where I get on the train, and where I get off. (Yay for Qigong and Meditation!)

It's not all that bad a path to follow in life either.

[dawei]

Some people do just read Chapter one and ignored the rest of the Chapters. That was quite alright for someone to understand the TTC superficially......

As Stosh suggested, I also wondered if you had some specific in mind or your just talking generally.

 

But the sometimes fetish focus on chapter 1 may be compounded by the way one understands it; if they miss something they have also missed out on much by focusing on that one chapter alone.

 

But the same could be said of the DDJ... focusing on one book misses out on the historical aspect of daoism as a whole; pre- and post-DDJ.

[ChiDragon]

I think we have enough discussion in the the Tao Te Ching section. Like someone said, let's not repeat the same thing over and over, here, again.

[Stosh]

I guess the absence of omission makes me included ..

So

Hey now...!

 

Folks , we all could be on the same page about this

words have definions defined by usage

the borders are often vague

for instance if FH can look in a mirror and see his greying

hair , just like I do when I look in the mirror

and yet considers hiself immortal

he is by definition "normal"

in that regard ,because the greater portion of

humanity holds on to the idea that they

will somehow persist after death.

What is not normal is to be OK

with the idea that one will pass and be gone

same as any sparrow.

 

Some folks want to know if they fit a traditional

view of Taoism , if their path is considered legitimate

If they are 'Doing it right' or just being foolish

 

If you asked me ,I would say those considerations

are the kind of things contraindicated by tao

and lead folks away from harmony who might get along

fine otherwise

 

Perhaps to finish out the thread well, the various

factions could just go ahead and briefly delineate

the borders of thier 'faiths' or distinguish the differences

that would be informative

(heck ! even after the time I have spent on this forum already

I dont know precisely who claims to be what)

 

Stosh

Edited July 20, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

... same as any sparrow.

You leave my sparrows alone!!!