American Personal Income tax

[Smile]

Since we started talking about income tax, there are some ideas here in USA that personal income tax is illegal because there is no law that actually require you to pay it.

 

See this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...80707&q=irs

 

Also this article: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/realityzone...40checkmate.htm

[Yoda]

I believe that, but it's just a technicality don't you think?

[karen]

Not sure if it was mentioned before, Aaron Russo's movie Freedom to Fascism - looks like it's been broken up into 12 parts:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RSdbz6IenpI

[Smile]

Aaron Russo's movie Freedom to Fascism

 

A technicality? More like ignorance and fear.

[TwoTrees]

Hey, Max

 

You know how that story went with my stepfather a few years ago when situation had arisen because he has not paid his income tax for the previous 10 + years ...

two full size boats, one truck, one camper, and a huge collection of rifles were then 'taken' from uncle sam's mafia of upstanding enforcements with punishment of imprisonment, submission or death if any resistent obstruction were placed in defense.

He then went to court a month later for it and served prison time for a year and a half because the propery they'd taken suggestively wasn't enough to cover what was owed.

 

Perhaps I should have mentioned to him that he could have filed lawsuit againt government officals because of this little glitch in law statement which would have offered him justification ?

 

Technicalities have been the main reason why I have lost some of my confidence in 'reason'.

Isn't that what scientists said differed us from animals decades ago ?

[Smile]

Yeah, I know it's not that simple...

Here is another video that helps explain things: Theft By Deception

[Yoda]

I've heard that there's only a 1% chance of audit (per lifetime?? per year???). And that auditors don't get their bonuses based on how much they make on the audit, but on how many audits they can run. They want stories circulating like TwoTrees'.

 

What they say is that if paying taxes was optional then absolutely nobody would pay them and we'd get our asses kicked by a Russia, or China, or even Mexico for that matter. So it's absolutely necessary for national security.

 

I'd like to think that they are wrong. That people would all buy hunting rifles at Walmart and rocket launchers online if some foreign aggressor were to roll into my hypothetical tax-free anarchist fantasy. (I'm thinking that my no rules utopia would sell rockets online.) Or maybe (serious fantasy...) we'd be so happy in our anarchist/tax free ways that we wouldn't even manifest enemies in the first place sort of like how the non-violent Quakers just happened to settle next to non-violent indians per the law of attraction theory.

 

Anyone know how aggressive other governments are at collecting? Pavel says that the Russian tax collectors are better versed at kettlebells, martial arts, and AK-47s than they are in accounting principles.

 

Every war the US has fought has created progressively higher, more aggressively collected taxes. And every war the US has fought has done has likewise watered down our beer too.

 

The enlightenment going on in the world will lower taxes and improve our beer eventually.

 

-Yoda

[Pietro]

Every war the US has fought has created progressively higher, more aggressively collected taxes. And every war the US has fought has done has likewise watered down our beer too.

 

The enlightenment going on in the world will lower taxes and improve our beer eventually.

 

-Yoda

Living in Germany from Italy I realised how the only beer that is worth dringking is the unpastorised one. You really can't beat the one that you take in the place where they brew it. Do you think that since lately all the beer that you can find is pastorised, for the law of symmetry, the taxes are going to get more and more raw?

 

P.

[Yoda]

I hadn't considered that angle!

[turbo]

I've heard that there's only a 1% chance of audit (per lifetime?? per year???). And that auditors don't get their bonuses based on how much they make on the audit, but on how many audits they can run. They want stories circulating like TwoTrees'.

 

What they say is that if paying taxes was optional then absolutely nobody would pay them and we'd get our asses kicked by a Russia, or China, or even Mexico for that matter. So it's absolutely necessary for national security.

 

I'd like to think that they are wrong.

 

Its not audits that will get you in trouble. If you have a job then your employer has to issue you a W-2 or a 1099 depending on whether or not you are a contract laborer. A copy of this is sent to the IRS. When the IRS receives your tax return they check it against these amounts and if they do not match, you get a letter in the mail, notifying you a deficiency. And sometimes penalties and interest. This is not an audit, this is just the IRS checking your return. Should you decide to operate without W-2s and 1099s you may be able to "fly under the radar" to a certain extent, but will generally have to pay a minimum amount of taxes (banks and lending institutions will always have to issue 1099s). However should you try to deduct enormous amounts as interest on your home or for other things this will raise flags with the IRS. Enough flags and you are at higher risk for an audit.

 

There are two ways to approach a tax issue with the IRS. 1) pay it and sue them to get it back and 2) sue them without paying and hope you win. 1) is the superior approach, b/c you won't have to pay penalties and interest on the amount if you lose, also you don't go to tax court, which as you can imagine, may be a bit biased.

 

Anyhow, as far as income taxes being legal or not, the fact is that they are the law. If you choose not to pay your assets will be seized and you will be taken to prison. Which is good enough reason for me to pay in full and on time.

[Smile]

When you sign the tax forms when you get a new job, you enter into an agreement/contract with IRS- you basically wave your rights to keep all your money. If you work for yourself, it's much easier, but you have to keep all your valuables (house, car, etc) in set-up trusts, so IRS/law suits can't touch them. Keep a few thousand $ in the bank and the rest in gold bars.

 

If you have your own business, write an agreement between your company and yourself/your family that your business will cover any expenses related to your well being and health (vitamins, doctors, chi kung videos, etc). That way you can write off a shit-load of money if you decide to pay taxes.

[turbo]

The video posted above and linked to here is called "Theft by Deception" relies on regularization 1.861-8 in stating that individuals may not owe income tax.

 

Here is a link a revenue ruling on the IRS website stating (in part):

Any position that, under sections 861 through 865, United States citizens and residents are not subject to tax on wages and other income earned or derived in the United States is frivolous. Taxpayers attempting to reduce their federal tax liability by taking frivolous positions based on this argument will be liable for the actual tax due plus statutory interest. In addition, the Service will determine civil penalties against taxpayers where appropriate, and those taxpayers also may face criminal prosecution.

 

So that approach will not work and will likely land you in prison.

[Lozen]

Anyhow, as far as income taxes being legal or not, the fact is that they are the law. If you choose not to pay your assets will be seized and you will be taken to prison. Which is good enough reason for me to pay in full and on time.

 

Me, too. Plus the fact that I hang out in public parks, drive on the roads, call the cops when I need to, etc. etc. etc.

[DaoWaDiddy]

Hey, Max

 

You know how that story went with my stepfather a few years ago when situation had arisen because he has not paid his income tax for the previous 10 + years ...

two full size boats, one truck, one camper, and a huge collection of rifles were then 'taken' from uncle sam's mafia of upstanding enforcements with punishment of imprisonment, submission or death if any resistent obstruction were placed in defense.

He then went to court a month later for it and served prison time for a year and a half because the propery they'd taken suggestively wasn't enough to cover what was owed.

 

On the other hand, I have a Libertarian acquaintance who did not pay taxes for about 10 years or so. She had some tough times when the IRS came in and tried to attach everything, etc. However, the IRS lost in court on criminal charges and then also lost the civil case that they brought and had to give it all back - including her commercial pilot's license that was cancelled when the they came after her.

 

I've never had any desire at all to be a test case and so have continued to make sure that I pay my protection money - er, "fair share" - on a regular basis.

 

Charlie

[TwoTrees]

On the other hand, I have a Libertarian acquaintance who did not pay taxes for about 10 years or so. She had some tough times when the IRS came in and tried to attach everything, etc. However, the IRS lost in court on criminal charges and then also lost the civil case that they brought and had to give it all back - including her commercial pilot's license that was cancelled when the they came after her.

 

I've never had any desire at all to be a test case and so have continued to make sure that I pay my protection money - er, "fair share" - on a regular basis.

 

Charlie

 

It's good to hear that they don't get em all, Charlie !!

I'm very glad that your friend did not have to eternally embrace (and be forced to accept) the victimization possibilities from their hounding & harassing intrusions.

 

But I agree with you completely, and will also continue to pay them,

*sighs heavily* ...

even though I do now have my own business, and self-employed endeavors.

*nonchalant grin*

[DaoWaDiddy]

But I agree with you completely, and will also continue to pay them,

*sighs heavily* ...

even though I do now have my own business, and self-employed endeavors.

*nonchalant grin*

 

Yes - always be sure to give them what they deserve.

 

I think it may be time to look into having some form of self-employment again...

[Smile]

[Smile]

But I agree with you completely, and will also continue to pay them,

*sighs heavily* ...

even though I do now have my own business, and self-employed endeavors.

*nonchalant grin*

Hey, I just found a picture of the actual IRS emplyees in their natural habitat...

[Peregrino]

Or maybe (serious fantasy...) we'd be so happy in our anarchist/tax free ways that we wouldn't even manifest enemies in the first place sort of like how the non-violent Quakers just happened to settle next to non-violent indians per the law of attraction theory.

 

Sorry if I'm thread-splitting here again, but you know, I do have a soft spot for Quakers, with their penchant for spiritual listening and resourceful non-violence. However . . . a book I recently read about the settling of North America, _Regeneration through Violence_ by Richard Slotkin, documents at least one case in which the Quakers' non-violence only left them peacefully . . . dead. Sometime in the latter 17th century,

 

Rhode Island's commitment to religious liberty and majority rule was severely tested when a majority government of Quakers refused to prepare sufficiently for war. The result was the decimation of the mainland settlements and the destruction of Providence. (Slotkin 81)

 

By all accounts the Quakers treated the Native Americans far more fraternally than any other "Christian" group in North America, but they were not spiritually protected from the threat of violence after all! I wonder how much of the gun mania in the US goes back to the memory of such massacres, notwithstanding the belligerent behavior on the side of the other (non-Quaker) settlers that would have provoked such retaliatory attacks.

 

PS

One of those Undead IRS ghouls Max posted is a real hottie!

[Yoda]

At least they stuck to their guns so to speak.

[Peregrino]

Ha!

 

Apparently Richard Nixon was raised a Quaker, but I guess he turned out to be nothing more than a Quaker-faker!