Microcosmic Orbit & Tongue Position

[Steven King]

In starting my practice of the Microcosmic Orbit meditation I have a question about tongue position.

 

1) Is the tip of the tongue placed at the roof of the mouth just behind the teeth, in the hard palate?

 

2) Is the tip of the tongue placed at the roof of the mouth top center, in the hard palate?

 

3) If the tongue is placed on the soft palate or further back does this help, or is it just overkill at that point?

 

EDIT: Am I eventually trying to preform kechari mudra? OR is simple connection to the hard palate enough?

 

EDIT: Good reference (http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/13629-tongueroof-of-mouth/) but does not answer my question.

 

Steven King

Edited June 26, 2012 by Steven King

[Harmonious Emptiness]

kechari mudra is not in Taoism

 

I think he main thing is to connect your tongue and upper part of the mouth with the energy channel maybe ending at the tip so the tip is the main point of contact. I've heard that behind the gums is associated with the heart and the back of the throat with the kidneys, maybe the middle with others.

 

I press the back and the tip of the tongue upwards. If the tip of the tongue is curled just slightly it will find the power spot imo.

[ChiDragon]

All of the above(1 thru 3).

The purpose of lifting the tip of the tongue was to keep the saliva flowing in your mouth to keep the mouth for being moisturized.

 

Skip to 5:00 about moisture in the mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8napfejgjE

Edited June 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

There are three basic tongue positions, these positions refer to where the tip of the tongue rests on the palate -

 

1. Just behind the front teeth touching the roof = Air position, tends to cause some drying but not much. Best position for martial arts.

 

2. Touching top of roof of mouth/hard palate = Fire position, tends to be the most drying.

 

3. Touching the soft palate just behind the hard palate = Water position, tends to facilitate flow of saliva. Requires practice to become relaxed and comfortable. This is the optimum position for meditation in my style.

 

In the beginning, however, if this causes too much tension in the face, mouth, or tongue, better to stick with the Air position.

[Steven King]

Edited June 26, 2012 by Steven King

[doc benway]

Exactly - very nice illustration.

I've never seen that before.

The Water position is referred to as Heavenly Pool because it is considered the source of the Heavenly Elixir which is utilized in the MCO practice.

[Steven King]

Exactly - very nice illustration.

I've never seen that before.

The Water position is referred to as Heavenly Pool because it is considered the source of the Heavenly Elixir which is utilized in the MCO practice.

 

I forgot I had this book, have not read it yet...

The illustration comes from one of Mantak Chia's books, Awaken Healing Energy Through The Tao, page 37.

 

This is what is said in the book about the tongue positions:

First position: The place near the teeth will produce air (wind) and will make it easy for you to fall sleep.

 

Second position: The top of the palate before the [soft] palate is the Fire Place. If touched for too long it will make the mouth and tongue feel dry.

 

Third position: This is the Heavenly Pool position about 1.5 inches in front of the teeth, stimulating the salivary gland that is under the tongue. The Heavenly Pool has two pools, which in the Tao system connect with the perineum Sperm Palace and the K1 Kidney, the Sole (Bubbling Sprint). It connects with the kidney and runs up past the heart, so these two pools will stimulate the kidney and sperm energy to rise up past the heart and enter the small brain and the Pituitary Gland, which transforms it into brain energy. This will later become Nectar and strengthen the heart energy.

[mYTHmAKER]

All of the above(1 thru 3).

The purpose of lifting the tip of the tongue was to keep the saliva flowing in your mouth to keep the mouth for being moisturized.

 

 

Placing your tongue on the roof of the mouth, closes the connection between the Du and Ren Channels.

[ChiDragon]

Placing your tongue on the roof of the mouth, closes the connection between the Du and Ren Channels.

That's what they say too....

[james liem]

Placing your tongue on the roof of the mouth, closes the connection between the Du and Ren Channels.

Do you know where the end of the Du Channel and the end of the Ren Channel?

[Steven King]

Do you know where the end of the Du Channel and the end of the Ren Channel?

 

Some info on the Governing and Conception Vessels: http://www.lieske.com/channels/5e-gc.htm

[chi 2012]

I got my mom to start practicing SFQ small universe a few weeks ago. The other day I told her not to forget to put the tip of the tongue on the roof of her mouth. She responded with some weird excuses - that she can't do that because it messes with her TMJ, and it still works anyway..blah blah blah. So I told her at the very least have the tongue touching behind the teeth.

 

So, if people refuse to connect the tongue....What percentage of effectiveness are they still getting? I'm thinking anywhere from 50 to 80%.

[mYTHmAKER]

I keep my tongue on the roof of my mouth behind my teeth most of the time.

one can do an experiment by placing your tongue on the roof of your mouth while doing something and then removing it. You can feel the energetic difference. More connected/centered with it on then off

[dawei]

From my experience and practice with Medical Qigong in Jerry Johnson's program, there are five tongue positions corresponding to each elemental association. So the pictures provided are incomplete and wrong, IMO.

 

If you develop enough sensitivity,you'll find each one on your own with practice.

 

Just to stick to the original question, for the MCO, the tongue should be as the OP stated in #1 (placed at the roof of the mouth just behind the teeth, in the hard palate).

 

Yang, Jwing-Ming (which many here know the name) relates that if you put the tongue in the metal position (not shown in previous images), this may cause some drowsiness in the practitioner while doing the MCO.

[Steven King]

From my experience and practice with Medical Qigong in Jerry Johnson's program, there are five tongue positions corresponding to each elemental association. So the pictures provided are incomplete and wrong, IMO.

 

I would ask that you site source material, illustration, page number... something. I'm greatly interested. Additionally, I have Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy by Jerry Alan Johnson if this helps.

 

Thanks

Steven King

[dawei]

I would ask that you site source material, illustration, page number... something. I'm greatly interested. Additionally, I have Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy by Jerry Alan Johnson if this helps.

 

Figure 15-32 through 15-36 on page 331.

 

There were organ breathing exercises that can be employed with the associated position as well. Like with the Hand Mudras, with some practice their difference can be felt.

[Steven King]

Figure 15-32 through 15-36 on page 331.

 

There were organ breathing exercises that can be employed with the associated position as well. Like with the Hand Mudras, with some practice their difference can be felt.

 

Most excellent! I found the page/illustrations you're referring to.

 

Thanks

Steven King

[dawei]

To be fair... you have not yet describe WHICH MCO you practice... which direction, Taoist or Buddhist? Normal or reverse breathing?

 

How do you define the MCO? Can you give the timing of breath and direction and the action of the huiyin and stomach with your breathing?

[Steven King]

To be fair... you have not yet describe WHICH MCO you practice... which direction, Taoist or Buddhist? Normal or reverse breathing?

 

How do you define the MCO? Can you give the timing of breath and direction and the action of the huiyin and stomach with your breathing?

 

You are correct, I never stated which MCO I'm practicing. I'm currently working with the Taoist material from Mantak Chia, using normal/abdominal breathing.

 

- How do I define the MCO: A circulation of energy, flowing upwards along the governor vessel during inhalation and then downwards along the conception vessel on the exhalation.

- Timing of breath and direction: I generally follow the 70% rule, 70% lung capacity so as not to create strain, no breath retention, breathing is circular.

- Action of the Hui Yin (Perineum): Is a gate or lock to be closed with a slight flex, or upward motion.

- Abdominal Action: Stomach/abdominal area is contracted or inward on the exhale. Stomach/abdominal area is extended or outward on the inhale.

 

I'm more or less new to Taoist studies, so any information, tips, etc. you wish to provide would be greatly appreciated.

[dawei]

Nice to read more detail on what your practicing. I want to add that I should not state whether what your learning is 'wrong'; I know different systems will use different techniques and I can't claim to know them all. I would only re-state that the system I learned has five positions for each organ association and you can reconcile the two materials you have. It would be interesting to read if you come up with in regards to the two explanations.

 

You showed 3 pictures: Wind, fire, water. After some thought, I realized that there are MCOs described as the 'wind', 'fire', and 'water' path. So I am now thinking these tongue positions are specific to the MCO path and not to organ associations as I know the positions.

 

After a little more searching I found a past thread where someone talked about this too:

 

I see. I just checked in the big medical qigong book by dr. J.A. Johnson and there it says

fire=up the governing, down the conception

water=up the conception, down the governing

wind=up the taiji pole, down the conception.

 

Again, this may or may not be exactly as you are learning so just sharing the info.

[doc benway]

So I am now thinking these tongue positions are specific to the MCO path and not to organ associations as I know the positions.

In our system, the MCO is practiced going up the governing vessel and down the conception vessel.

The position of the tongue is not related to the specific path in this system.

Rather, it is held in the "water" position to facilitate optimal generation of the "golden elixir" which is then used in transforming the Jing to Qi.

As Dawei mentioned, this is just our system.

There are many variations on the basic theme.

[dawei]

You are correct, I never stated which MCO I'm practicing. I'm currently working with the Taoist material from Mantak Chia, using normal/abdominal breathing.

 

- How do I define the MCO: A circulation of energy, flowing upwards along the governor vessel during inhalation and then downwards along the conception vessel on the exhalation.

- Timing of breath and direction: I generally follow the 70% rule, 70% lung capacity so as not to create strain, no breath retention, breathing is circular.

- Action of the Hui Yin (Perineum): Is a gate or lock to be closed with a slight flex, or upward motion.

- Abdominal Action: Stomach/abdominal area is contracted or inward on the exhale. Stomach/abdominal area is extended or outward on the inhale.

 

I'm more or less new to Taoist studies, so any information, tips, etc. you wish to provide would be greatly appreciated.

You did not say when the action of the Hui Yin occurs; The reason to lock it (and the anal sphincter if you want) is to encourage the energy movement up the spine.

 

I think of the stomach expanding/contracting in 3D, so that the Hui Yin is just a part of it; if inhaling air / expanding the stomach then expand at the Hui Yin; and on exhaling air / contraction of stomach the Hui Yin locks upward.

 

Do you regulate these two (stomach and hui yin) simultaneously in this manner?

 

If yes, then you inhale / expand stomach and hui yin as energy goes up the spine but the lock does not occur to stimulate energy upward?

 

If no, then your inhaling air / expanding stomach / locking hui yin as energy goes up the spine?

[dawei]

In our system, the MCO is practiced going up the governing vessel and down the conception vessel.

The position of the tongue is not related to the specific path in this system.

Rather, it is held in the "water" position to facilitate optimal generation of the "golden elixir" which is then used in transforming the Jing to Qi.

As Dawei mentioned, this is just our system.

There are many variations on the basic theme.

I see... this corresponds to what I think of as the 'kidney position' which I can see the relationship to your comment of "transforming the Jing to Qi". The 'water' picture is the only one of the three that is the same as I know them.

 

The fire position is most common since it relates to the heart and the heart is the 'supreme commander' which oversees all. Thus the fire position is most likely best to use for overall regulation reasons.

 

But the 'fire' picture I see posted here is more the 'wood' position I know. The fire position I know is the tongue is more forward and just above the teeth (more like the wind picture).

[Steven King]

You did not say when the action of the Hui Yin occurs; The reason to lock it (and the anal sphincter if you want) is to encourage the energy movement up the spine.

 

I think of the stomach expanding/contracting in 3D, so that the Hui Yin is just a part of it; if inhaling air / expanding the stomach then expand at the Hui Yin; and on exhaling air / contraction of stomach the Hui Yin locks upward.

 

Do you regulate these two (stomach and hui yin) simultaneously in this manner?

 

If yes, then you inhale / expand stomach and hui yin as energy goes up the spine but the lock does not occur to stimulate energy upward?

 

If no, then your inhaling air / expanding stomach / locking hui yin as energy goes up the spine?

 

The lock of the anal sphincter is done throughout the exercise, not just during the exhale or inhale. It is done as you say, to encourage energy movement up the spine. It is also done to prevent energy leakage via the anal sphincter. This has been the way, aside from Mantak Chia, I was taught to hold this particular lock/gate.

[Steven King]

FOR REFERENCE