Expectations

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Cat Pillar]

None of my friends in the "real world" are into this stuff, so that wouldn't help.

 

And it won't help if you tell me that my problem is illusory, no. Mostly because I already "know" that...again, when I'm conscious enough to remember it. I already had that breakthrough, what I work on now is trying to stay conscious of that. It's a work in progress.

 

I've gotten past the worst of my suffering (chronic severe depression), so I'm content to let progress take its course.

 

I think "You are not the suffering" is a great starting point. What that really means isn't something easily answered in words, though. Don't you think?

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[hieronimus]

I speak to this concept so often that I think whatever I say will be redundant.

 

However, I think I will say this:

 

I see no problem with placing expectations on ourself but I see serious problems with placing expectations on anything external to ourself.

 

Expectations of any kind? Can't we also put ourselves into serious problems with some expectations we place on ourselves?

 

Just asking if you could elaborate a bit more on this, Marblehead.

[Marblehead]

Expectations of any kind? Can't we also put ourselves into serious problems with some expectations we place on ourselves?

 

Just asking if you could elaborate a bit more on this, Marblehead.

Fair questions. Let's see how I handle them.

 

Regarding ourself: Yes, we can easily get into trouble if we do not know ourself well and we place upon ourself expectations that are not attainable by us. This is why I suggest that we periodically test our capacities and capabilities. Sure, we can place expectations on ourself higher than we have ever attained before. But I think that the expectations should be increased only enough to give us a fair challenge rather than sure defeat.

 

Regardiong others: Sure, after a person or thing has proven itself to be of such and such a character then it would be fair to place expectations that were equal to historical record. However, if, for example, we know nothing about snakes I think it would be wise to expect the snake to be poisonous and that it would strike at me if I got too close.

[hieronimus]

Fair questions. Let's see how I handle them.

 

Regarding ourself: Yes, we can easily get into trouble if we do not know ourself well and we place upon ourself expectations that are not attainable by us. This is why I suggest that we periodically test our capacities and capabilities. Sure, we can place expectations on ourself higher than we have ever attained before. But I think that the expectations should be increased only enough to give us a fair challenge rather than sure defeat.

 

Regardiong others: Sure, after a person or thing has proven itself to be of such and such a character then it would be fair to place expectations that were equal to historical record. However, if, for example, we know nothing about snakes I think it would be wise to expect the snake to be poisonous and that it would strike at me if I got too close.

 

Thanks. This is pretty much my view, I was asking to be sure that I understood you correctly.

 

Have a nice evening

Edited June 29, 2012 by hieronimus

[Marblehead]

Thanks. This is pretty much my view, I was asking to be sure that I understood you correctly.

 

Have a nice evening

Great! I am glad I am understood. I just spoke to that in another thread. Hehehe.

 

Ah!, this evening. Tentative plans are to eat out this evening. Marble's gonna' get a fat belly.

[hieronimus]

Ah!, this evening. Tentative plans are to eat out this evening. Marble's gonna' get a fat belly.

 

So, did your evening meal meet your expectations? Tasty? Fatty? or both?

[Marblehead]

So, did your evening meal meet your expectations? Tasty? Fatty? or both?

Yep. Worked out as planned, thank you. Very tasty, not too fatty but rather heavy. Lots of protein so I can grow up big and strong.

[Vmarco]

 

You've pinpointed the problem spot, right here 'An expectation not met, is a desire or need not met; therefore, a negative emotion results'. And that's social conditioning; its also a choice if we have honed our awareness. Not to be so attached when our expectations/desires aren't met, we don't need to 'go negative'.

 

Whoa! That is so negative,...and imprisoning to any authentic wish for liberation. To suggest an expectation with a perceived positive outcome, is superior or in any way desirable, while an unfulfilled expectation is desireless,...is quite insane.

 

From a Taoist/Buddhist point of view, all expectations,...whether fulfilled or unfulfilled,...are negative, and should be let go.

 

Although the term "hope" is considered to be positive and admirable idea, especially in US America,...please take an honest look at what it really means.

 

 

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

 

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope?

 

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

 

How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the Present.

 

If our attention is on seeking hope, how are we to ever experience the immediacy required to be in the Present? If we seek hope, our overall frequency pattern projects a self-manifested incompleteness, and thus can only attract to itself, that incompleteness. It is no different than a mirror in ones bathroom; if you look into the mirror with a frown, it will not reflect back a smile. In other words, our hope will never be realized as long as we hope; just like joy is never actualized if we are looking for it.

 

Hope is a condition,…whereas, if Love is Unconditional, how can hope ever enter Love,…a condition cannot enter the Unconditional. Thus, if there is one action in the world which could precipitate a tremendum of Collective metanoic proportions, it would be the deletion of the word hope from our vocabulary.

 

2 billion Christians believe that faith is something hoped for,...Hebrews 11:1. Prajnaparamita says that enlightenment is impossible to all who cling to hope.

 

"the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear." Tilopa

 

Ultimately, people who cling to expectations for their identity, have no business in Taoist/Buddhist discussions.

[thelerner]

What did you think I used the word the hope there? My comments were aimed against being overly attached, ie "Not to be so attached when our expectations/desires aren't met, we don't need to 'go negative". Aren't you digging up a 2 1/2 year old post, then misconstruing it, so you bring up your usual diatribes against Christianity and how you divide the world into worthies and unworthies.

I also think in Buddhism its not attachments that bad, its clinging to attachments that is. I don't think the Buddha wanted us to be Vulcans, rather happier, better human beings.

 

Here's my take. In an enlightened state, a being is so much in the Now that Hope, which reaches into the future is unneeded, nonexistent. But lets not fool ourselves. We're not there, we're dudes playing on the internet, we're far from enlightened and thus can engage in the luxury of hope.

 

Its a pleasant emotion, happy and sustaining. Yes it must be balanced with real world probabilities, we shouldn't cling or be overly attached to it (as I wrote). Yet in my opinion its an emotional tool we should keep until we're enlightenment (fat chance for most of us), in which case it naturally drops away. But until then its good, its positive, its sustaining and empowering.

 

In a world that often seems dark and scary, don't give up hope. Work to make it better and/or whatever other good shit I have written in my bottom lines

 

And quoting Tilopa.. you've mentioned disliking when Westerner's dress inappropriately in Eastern sacred settings, he's a guy who'll eat meat(fish) in a Hermitage just to say Screw You monks. And since you've mentioned the myth several times, do you believe he brought the half eaten fish back to life, gave it the power flight and watched it swim away through the air; doing this wondrous miracle just to piss off a few monks! Since you quote the guy and talk about the myth, do you believe it? Or is it a parable that one can be enlightened, magical and still an asshole at the same time?

Edited December 7, 2014 by thelerner

[johndoe2012]

Enlightenment without open heart leads to asshole syndrome seems to me.

 

Regarding hope I think that disappears completely when self monitoring vanishes and one just is in activity without projecting anything onto the future.

 

With regard to Christians I was pleasantly surprised by two Mormons who were handing out flyers a few days ago here in the neighborhood .

Talking to them gave me that fuzzy feeling of me liking everyone / everything. It came I believe because I was truly interested in them forgetting myself for a brief moment.

Edited December 8, 2014 by chris d

[doc benway]

Looking for input on how you or your school of thought deals with expectations. They seem very dichotomous, either you have them or not. If I have an expectation and that expectation is not met, then the result will be a negative emotion. If I don't have an expectation, then there may be a variety of other negative repercussions (relationships and just general getting things done comes to mind). If one has no expectations of oneself, why bother doing things or growing?

 

My calculus has put me in between a rock and a hard place - anyone have a pillow?

 

Edited: for spelling

 

In my opinion, expectations are a setup for disappointment, aversion, and attachment.

There is a difference between expectations and aspirations.

I do not need to have an expectation to do things, to want to do things, to be in a relationship.

Particularly in relationships, I think they have more negative than positive consequences.

An expectation is essentially putting a condition on people and things, making a judgement.

Much better to be true to oneself and one's choices and actions without being too concerned with the associated hopes and desires.

[C T]

Enlightenment without open heart leads to asshole syndrome seems to me.

 

Regarding hope I think that disappears completely when self monitoring vanishes and one just is in activity without projecting anything onto the future.

 

With regard to Christians I was pleasantly surprised by two Mormons who were handing out flyers a few days ago here in the neighborhood .

Talking to them gave me that fuzzy feeling of me liking everyone / everything. It came I believe because I was truly interested in them forgetting myself for a brief moment.

So in some ways deepening practice means lengthening those brief moments of forgetting self. It really boils down to this eventually. Self absorption is the biggest stumbling block to awakening. The more we learn to drop & forget the seriousness associated with the self, the more expansive we feel. In this expansion the welcoming spirit is a natural manifestation - others get drawn in to the circle of blissfulness with ease. Without ease bliss is not possible. So eventually some cultivators come to realise the illness of effort - they get withered from trying trying trying so finally they just give up - its usually there or thereabouts that the light breaks thru the clouds, if you get what im saying.

[Rara]

I used to feel guilty for having expectations in the early years of cultuvation.

 

Nowadays, I let myself have them. Even big ones. Dreams and aspirations...

 

The key is, if you start seeing it making you miserable if you don't achieve, then catch it early and take a step back.