Expectations

[daojones]

Looking for input on how you or your school of thought deals with expectations. They seem very dichotomous, either you have them or not. If I have an expectation and that expectation is not met, then the result will be a negative emotion. If I don't have an expectation, then there may be a variety of other negative repercussions (relationships and just general getting things done comes to mind). If one has no expectations of oneself, why bother doing things or growing?

My calculus has put me in between a rock and a hard place - anyone have a pillow?

Edited: for spelling

Edited December 7, 2014 by daojones

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It's all contextual. There's no problem with having standards. I see it like Tai Chi. Sometimes it's important to let go of all your searching and contemplation and just be with no expectations -- this is like a yin/draw before a yang/strike. You will be much more prepared if you know how to draw well .

[doc benway]

Looking for input on how you or your school of though deals with expectations. They seem very dichotomous, either you have them or not. If I have an expectation and that expectation is not met, then the result will be a negative emotion. If I don't have an expectation, then there may be a variety of other negative repercussions (relationships and just general getting things done comes to mind). If one has no expectations of oneself, why bother doing things or growing?

 

My calculus has put me in between a rock and a hard place - anyone have a pillow?

Expectations are not the problem per se. The negative emotion arises when we attach our happiness to the outcome. If the expectation is there, that is fine. If it is not met, that is fine too, move on. The problem is that we tend to tell ourselves - "I refuse to be happy (or, I am unable to be happy) unless fill in the blank."

When we are able to experience that our happiness is independent of our expectations, we are liberated.

[Protector]

http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/Taoist_Farmer.html

[Stosh]

Steve nailed that down as tight as a ducks ,, vent.

( I have pictures ,,,it's really thorough.)

[Boy]

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Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[daojones]

Steve -

 

What is an expectation then? It seems that at the core of an expectation is a desire or need. This is attached to a future outcome/event. Seems pointless to have expectations if there is no 'seriousness' behind it...paraphrasing Alan Watts, "seriousness has the context of the possibility of the worst possible outcome". I think expectations are 'serious'. An expectation not met, is a desire or need not met; therefore, a negative emotion results. If this is the case, then we are not talking about the same concept. Yes, this is semantics. But, it clearly differentiates the concept.

 

One could conclude that you are saying do not desire, although I'm not sure that's what you're saying. Perhaps, do not attach happiness to a desire? But then the same problem arises - what is desire without attachment?

 

An insight I gleaned from the inner smile meditation is that I have an inner and outer happiness. Inner happiness is the state that I can set. It exists regardless, and gives a context for outer happiness. Outer happiness is conditional, and depends on what's going on in my life. I think there is an oscillation between the two. As one negotiates their way in life, or even through the day for contemplative types (i.e. everyone on this forum), there is a movement between inner and outer states. How is this relevant to expectations? Expectations correlate to outer happiness. So I agree that inner happiness is independent of expectations, and that one can be liberated through inner happiness. But, I also don't think it is possible to function effectively as a human, and with other humans, without expectations - but they bring so many problems!>??!! Should I live in a cave?!?!?

[daojones]

Boy -

 

I'm not sad. I don't think I'm negative. In my day to day, I am frequently having my expectations not met. It is actually in a very practical manner...this breaks, that breaks, something goes wrong, and so on. It is so much so that I basically don't accomplish anything. Frustration! grrrr

 

Anyhow the dispassionate thing seems pretty cool. I don't follow what you're saying though about shoes and legs.

[thelerner]

An expectation not met, is a desire or need not met; therefore, a negative emotion results. If this is the case, then we are not talking about the same concept. Yes, this is semantics. But, it clearly differentiates the concept.

 

But, I also don't think it is possible to function effectively as a human, and with other humans, without expectations - but they bring so many problems!>??!! Should I live in a cave?!?!?

 

You've pinpointed the problem spot , right here 'An expectation not met, is a desire or need not met; therefore, a negative emotion results'. And that's social conditioning; its also a choice if we have honed our awareness. Not to be so attached when our expectations/desires aren't met, we don't need to 'go negative'.

 

Its about downgrading desires to preferences, and being happy(or neutral) with what we get. We're human so we'll have preferences, but we can't let them make us into emotional yo yo's.

 

There are times to judge and think, but we do way to much of it. We've confused Our Being with mental tools and its bloated our egos and made us constantly play 'I'm right, You're wrong' games, much to our detriment.

Edited June 27, 2012 by thelerner

[doc benway]

Steve -

 

What is an expectation then? It seems that at the core of an expectation is a desire or need. This is attached to a future outcome/event. Seems pointless to have expectations if there is no 'seriousness' behind it...paraphrasing Alan Watts, "seriousness has the context of the possibility of the worst possible outcome". I think expectations are 'serious'. An expectation not met, is a desire or need not met; therefore, a negative emotion results. If this is the case, then we are not talking about the same concept. Yes, this is semantics. But, it clearly differentiates the concept.

 

One could conclude that you are saying do not desire, although I'm not sure that's what you're saying. Perhaps, do not attach happiness to a desire? But then the same problem arises - what is desire without attachment?

 

An insight I gleaned from the inner smile meditation is that I have an inner and outer happiness. Inner happiness is the state that I can set. It exists regardless, and gives a context for outer happiness. Outer happiness is conditional, and depends on what's going on in my life. I think there is an oscillation between the two. As one negotiates their way in life, or even through the day for contemplative types (i.e. everyone on this forum), there is a movement between inner and outer states. How is this relevant to expectations? Expectations correlate to outer happiness. So I agree that inner happiness is independent of expectations, and that one can be liberated through inner happiness. But, I also don't think it is possible to function effectively as a human, and with other humans, without expectations - but they bring so many problems!>??!! Should I live in a cave?!?!?

An expectation is a belief that something will occur in the future.

Once we attach our happiness to that, it becomes a desire.

If we do not attach our happiness to it, it is simply a matter of fact, a landmark, an item of interest.

No matter what expectation we have that is fulfilled, sooner or later another expectation arises.

There is the endless cycle of seeking, achieving, then seeking something else.

If you have an insight into this cycle, you may have the experience that happiness is not something that is related to expectation and fulfillment. Consequently, neither is unhappiness. Unhappiness arises from lack of touch with reality.

 

There are those that have absolutely nothing and are completely fulfilled, terminal cancer patients who are completely happy, and people living in abject poverty who need nothing.

Similarly, there are those who have more than they could spend or use in a lifetime and are absolutely miserable. Hollywood is proof positive that money does not equal happiness.

So if you can tap into the source of true happiness, you may find that it has nothing to do with expectation or desire.

It transcends all of that.

 

Our problem is that we are conditioned from birth to a need for approval. First from our parents, then our extended family, teachers, friends, bosses, partners, spouses, society, etc... This is a deep addiction that is so endemic it is accepted as normal. And it is part of what is at the root of our problems related to expectation and desire. It is possible to free oneself of that burden but it first takes awareness of the problem and recognition of the truth.

 

I guess the other aspect is the negative emotion. It is completely natural when an expectation is not met for there to be a feeling of disappointment, anger, whatever. Emotions come and go. No matter what you are feeling emotionally at any given time, stick around, it'll change... I don't think it is a problem to feel a negative emotion. That is being human and real. It's important, however, to avoid identifying with the emotion. That is where unhappiness comes in. One can be happy, fulfilled, content, and still experience the normal ups and downs of reactive emotion.

[Cat Pillar]

I guess the other aspect is the negative emotion. It is completely natural when an expectation is not met for there to be a feeling of disappointment, anger, whatever. Emotions come and go. No matter what you are feeling emotionally at any given time, stick around, it'll change... I don't think it is a problem to feel a negative emotion. That is being human and real. It's important, however, to avoid identifying with the emotion. That is where unhappiness comes in. One can be happy, fulfilled, content, and still experience the normal ups and downs of reactive emotion.

 

I think that in addition to avoiding identifying with the emotion, it's also important to allow yourself to fully feel it. I think resistance to negative emotions is as much an issue as identifying with them.

 

Kind of like striking a balance between not clinging and not running away - in other words, developing an internal environment in which all emotions (not just negative) are free to flow in and out like clouds passing through the sky.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Cat Pillar]

Boy,

 

Personally, I think it's much easier to cut at the root when you're not being pulled this way and that by your emotions. Just my opinion.

[Birch]

Not to be, er, contrary (but of course that's what I'm about to do) do you reckon it's "better" to be a happy cancer patient or a sad one? Either way you're a cancer patient. I wonder if you mean 'happy cancer patient' equates to 'cancer patient resigned to their obvious demise'? I read it that way but I reckon that's maybe not quite what was meant. Aren't we all sort of resigned to some kind of passing? I wonder.

 

Aside from what a cancer patient may or may not be feeling or whether it's obvious they're done for or not or whether their happiness has an effect on their cancer (adding to the potential existing guilt that they may have brought it upon themselves which in this age of polluted lots of things is a big joke IMO). I've never tried telling anyone to be happy (or sad) despite whatever is happening in their lives. Does it work for them?

[daojones]

I got put my post into context (it's all about meeeee, meeee!!! ). First off, thanks to everyone for great responses! Really appreciate it.

 

I think expectations are definitely tied to existential 'stuff', and I am going through these types of things, but they are deeper into the onion. I posted this thread because I have been working fairly hard over the past few months and don't have much to show for it, and I will finish work in the coming few months. Basically I had yet another bad day and am feeling like WTF, why bother. I am not held captive by these emotions; however, the ins and outs of my day are consumed by my work, so this is the reality I am absorbed in most of the time (except when I can find time to do inner work). I was completely calm and not-stressed throughout today, which is a significant improvement. Yet, a feeling of defeat accompanies this. I basically had to adopt the attitude of calm and not caring about results, because I knew better than to expect things to work. Not a fan. If I felt this way before I endeavoured, I shan't have endeavoured. Perhaps this would be a begrudged happy cancer patient position?

 

However.

 

Shit doesn't get done when you don't care about results. If results aren't important, the requisite effort will not come. I think that's a major reason why the laissez faire approach on expectations doesn't do it for me. I just don't believe society would function under this paradigm. I also don't see how it's possible to have relationships without expectations. I am open to ideas, but I just don't see a way around it. The laissez faire approach definitely works at higher spiritual levels, assuming higher means less grounded in Earth and everyday life (not a house holder approach though). But that's not where I'm at, and I'm going to guess most people are involved with others in some regards. What would happen at a monastery where a monk could not be relied on to perform his/her caretaker duties, wouldn't they get kicked out? Everyone has limits. Everyone has a line, where seriousness begins, where desire begins, and preferences ends - otherwise how could the game of life be worth playing (another alan watts reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN15Ohevar0). Ideally we should be moving the line of desire back, and the line of preference forward...but everyone is at different places with different lines.

 

I truly have little knowledge of philosophies based on no-desire, etc...would be interested on reading up on it. I would like to learn how this methodology could facilitate a holistic life.

 

Boy -

 

Thanks for the advice. I love psychobabble! Self honesty is huge. I know I am not happy where I am at now, but have no idea where I want to go. Also, not sure how you read into this from what I wrote. Any tips?

[fizix]

Expectations are resentments waiting to happen.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[doc benway]

I think that in addition to avoiding identifying with the emotion, it's also important to allow yourself to fully feel it. I think resistance to negative emotions is as much an issue as identifying with them.

 

I agree completely.

 

 

 

You are frustrated! Angry! Mad! Too many things suck, even though they really shouldn't! Something's wrong and it's not your fault! Think about it! What is wrong? What is the problem? Ask yourself "Why do I feel like this?" Be honest! Find out what the real problem is! Think! Don't evade it with academic nonsense! Do it, and you'll shoot off like a bleedin' rocket towards eternity! I kid you not. Just one ounce of honesty takes you halfway to heaven!

 

Cut at the root!

 

Do it!

I agree completely. I think it's also important to recognize that for most people this is a process that takes a very long time. Maybe some wake up spontaneously and instantaneously with a provocation such as this. Most approach it incrementally over time. Recognizing our tendency to assign our happiness to external circumstances is not academic nonsense. It's part of the process of answering the very questions you are asking.

 

 

Not to be, er, contrary (but of course that's what I'm about to do) do you reckon it's "better" to be a happy cancer patient or a sad one? Either way you're a cancer patient. I wonder if you mean 'happy cancer patient' equates to 'cancer patient resigned to their obvious demise'? I read it that way but I reckon that's maybe not quite what was meant. Aren't we all sort of resigned to some kind of passing? I wonder.

 

I am referring to the person who recognizes the potential for fulfillment and happiness in this very moment. It is the only moment that ever exists and everything we need is already here in front of us. We typically put off our happiness and associate it with something that will happen in the future. I will make a lot of money and THEN I will be happy. I will enter into a relationship with a beautiful person and THEN I will be happy. I will become enlightened or powerful and THEN I will be happy. The terminal patient, at some point, sees through the idiocy of that way of living and recognizes that happiness is opening up to what is already here inside and around me. It will NEVER be anything other than that. Any time you put off your happiness and link it to another person or different event or set of future circumstances, that is not happiness, that is a passing attachment. It will come and go and you'll still be there, attaching your happiness to something new... That cycle will never end.

[Marblehead]

I speak to this concept so often that I think whatever I say will be redundant.

 

However, I think I will say this:

 

I see no problem with placing expectations on ourself but I see serious problems with placing expectations on anything external to ourself.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[doc benway]

Good grief, steve! You're still only talking "about". Can't you see that daojones has a serious problem? What help does he get from your theoretical discourses and blatant distancing from him? You speak of all but the situation at hand. Look! Now, right here, in this thread, a man needs your help! Don't speak hypothetically and don't give him theory! Help the man!

 

Good lord! The patient describes the illness. The doctor prescribes the medication. You know what the problem is, steve. Prescribe! To the best of your abilities! I need your help here!

 

Or are you too just a patient? (Now that's provocation for you!)

 

(sorry if you think I treat you paternalistically, daojones. That's NOT my intention.)

 

Come on.

 

I can only do the work for myself.

I can't do it for daojones.

I am both a doctor and a patient.

Maybe some of my words are helpful, maybe not.

Maybe your words will help him more, that would be nice.

 

Hopefully he will take up the torch and begin to do the work in earnest but that is beyond my ability and responsibility to control.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[doc benway]

Ok, steve. All is well. Evasion's the name of the game! ;-) But remember that by trying to help others, you help yourself. Beyond measure. But you already know that. Don't be tired. Don't give up. We'll meet again, I'm sure!

Actually, the ONLY way to help others is to first help yourself.

That much I am certain of...

 

Be cautious with your enthusiasm.

It is laudable but not always skillful.

Sometimes people need to reach a certain level of frustration and pain to make a breakthrough.

 

If you feel otherwise, you are certainly welcome to solve daojones' problems yourself.

Curious that you seem to have the answers but want me to intervene.

 

Yes, I'm quite sure we'll meet again....

 

...again

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Cat Pillar]

@Cat Pillar: Absolutely! Your innuendo, however, is out of ignorance. Don't sweat it.

 

 

(Hey Cat Pillar! I did this with emotion. Hope it still worked!?)

 

Innuendo? Not sure what you mean, but I won't sweat it.

 

I don't know if it worked, I'm not daojones. But I think maybe you took my statement out of context (unless you're just playing around, in which case disregard). Whether or not you "did that" with emotion isn't really relevant to what I was talking about. I was speaking specifically to "cutting at the root." In my own experience, I can't get to the root of my suffering when I'm caught up in identifying with the suffering. It takes a conscious recognition of what is occurring for me to cut through, and it took a LOT of practice watching my thoughts before I could do it effectively.

 

I still find myself getting wrapped up in suffering a lot, I'm sure as hell no guru or master. But I know what to look for, when I can stay conscious enough to do it.