More confusion from AYP

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi,

I was reading some posts at the AYP forum and I came accross these posts which are discussing the fact that during AYP's Deep Meditation (which is almost identical to TM) they are experiencing periods of dullness, laxity and perhaps even sleep.

 

link: http://www.aypsite.o...?TOPIC_ID=11715

 

Doctor Who, posts:

I'm completing my third month of consistent DM and a lot has changed recently. The first two months were accompanied by very noticeable and sometimes dramatic results: highly emotional vivid dreams; pressure behind my nose and eyes; emotional swings from carefree lightness to apathy and negativity. No matter the quality of the mantra, I could always pick it up and cruise with it.

 

Things have really balanced out in the last month. None of the aforementioned effects occur anymore. Now I find myself totally blanking out for 3-5 minutes. Not just getting lost in mental chatter or drifting off in thoughts...but elaborate mental scenarios that I won't even realize I'm in until I snap out of it like 5 minutes later. They totally swallow me up and the mantra and I don't have a chance . The mantra gets swept away like a snowflake in a tsunami. Snapping out of it is like waking after deep dreaming and really having to re-orient myself like "Where am I?...Oh yeah, I'm here meditating." These are not visions or anything, just nonsensical yet very complicated dreams. It's accompanied by a heavy sleepy feeling.

 

 

So, AumNatural asks if Doctor Who uses back support:

Do you use back support for meditation? Asking because I find such getting lost for me is very hard, and even when sleep deprived late at night the mini thought-imagery rarely lasts very long at all before getting jolted because my body wants to fall backwards.

 

I guess he forgot that part of the DM instructions that say to rest your back on the chair (or the wall). I believe that resting your back makes it easier to fall asleep, which is all that you are really doing in DM.

 

Then, Bodhi Tree comments with similar observations..

Wow. This is a superb description of similar black-out episodes I have had during DM. "The mantra gets swept away like a snowflake in a tsunami." Brilliant!

 

Yes indeed. It's like these parallel realities are playing out in complex and alien narratives...and I just get sucked into their vortices, and I only get a glimpse of their characters, dialogues, and landscapes as I'm surfacing. And I can pretty much never make sense of them. LOL.

 

And bingo...just like you said...the mental process of realizing that A) I'm off the mantra, and I'm meditating in the first place...takes a good deal longer than normal. I usually rest at the end for significantly longer as well to adjust. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, it certainly gets me scratching my head.

 

They really don't know that during DM they are 'cat napping' which is referred to as an undesirable state known as 'laxity' or dullness, which is something to avoid in Buddhist Shamatha practice.. More about this later..

 

Then, Carson posts that these blackouts can happen for months!

I've experienced these types of meditations before. They tend to happen in cycles for me and the cycles will last anywhere from a few days to several months. Then the experience of meditation will shift, sometimes quickly sometimes with a longer transition, into one of the other 3 or 4 types of meditations I seem to experience.

 

 

So, then, after no intervention by Yogani, or anyone else to set them straight, Doctor Who actually thanks them:

Bodhi and Carson: You guys are so right about resting significantly longer after these types of meditation sessions. I practically crash out for 10 min only to be woken by my timer. And Bodhi , that's a great description of what it's like. The same "... glimpse of their characters, dialogues, and landscapes...". I'm always amazed at the stuff bouncing around in my noggin! It's unbelievable.

 

Aum: No back support for me. I've been doing meditation postures for years so I'm pretty locked in. But I have experienced the occasional 'jolt' here and there. Not sure what that's about either:)

 

You guys are great. Thanks!

 

The reason they are seeing visions or landscapes is because they are passing through the dream state after which they are slowly succumbing to laxity and falling asleep.

 

The reason I bring all of this up is because, not only did I have the same experiences after I finally learned how to do TM or DM properly, but I was reading about laxity in Alan Wallace's books and he says, not only should laxity be avoided but prolonged laxity can cause a person to become unintelligent.

 

 

In Alan Wallace's book called "The Attention Revolution", he says this about laxity:

As mentioned earlier, the symptom of this attentional disorder is that your attention succumbs to dullness, which causes it to largely disengage from it's meditative object. The Tibetan word for laxity has the connotation of sinking. It's as if the attention, instead of rising to the object, sinks down from it into the recesses of the mind. The attention fades, as it were, but instead of fading out, it's more like fading in, stepping onto a slippery slope that leads down to sluggishness, lethargy and finally sleep. This is a peaceful state of mind, so the ignorant may mistake it for the attainment of shamatha, which litterally means quiescence, tranquility or serenity. True Shamatha is imbued not only with a degree of stability far beyond that achieved at this stage of attentional practice but also with an extraordinary vividness that one has hardly begun to develop at this point in the training.

 

Dr. Wallace goes on to say:

 

Abiding in a state of of coarse laxity can be very peaceful, with your mind relatively undisturbed by thoughts or emotional upheavals. But if you spend many hours each day in such a state of dullness, Tibetan contemplatives report that this not only has no benefit, it can actually impare your intelligence. The acuity of your mind starts to atrophy, and over the long term, this can do serious damage.

 

The last point of interest with reference to the DM practice of mantra repetition is found in Alan Wallace's book called "Stilling the Mind" wherein he says:

 

In the Gelug tradition, in three year retreat, you spend almost all your time doing mantras, hundreds of thousands of mantras. Will you achieve Shamatha while doing mantras? Not likely. It wasn't intended for that.

 

...

Yet, Dudjom Lingpa has already told us twice now that shamatha is 'indispensible' and 'critical'. So if people are settling for fleeting stability, that means they're not taking such advice seriously.

 

 

Granted, Dr Wallace is referring to the normal usage of the mantra, as in conventional mantra repetition and AYP uses the mantra like a hypnogogic tool to access deep sleep. As to whether or not it takes you beyond deep sleep, is a mystery and yet to be proven by TM or DM meditators. Dr Wallace does say that any act of settling consciousness will lead to the substrate consciousness, from which all form arises and dissolves back into. But he also mentions that Primordial Consciousness lies further beyond..

 

I am concerned about the AYP meditators. Hopefully they will read this post and become a little wiser.

 

TI

[billb]

So then why does the Gelug tradition practice mantra for 3 years? Is Wallace saying it is a waste of time since it does not likely lead to shamatha? He says this is not the intended purpose so what does he believe the intended purpose is? I am not clear on whether or not he is against the 3 year program altogether or just thinks people will use it for the wrong intended purpose and fail. And what does Wallace suggest to do instead of deep meditation in order to attain shamatha? I have not read his books so maybe I am misunderstanding what he is trying to say based on a few quotes.

[Chang]

I guess he forgot that part of the DM instructions that say to rest your back on the chair (or the wall). I believe that resting your back makes it easier to fall asleep, which is all that you are really doing in DM.

 

Deep meditation and sleep are two different states of consciousness. You are obviously of the opinion that the practice of mantric meditation (as taught in TM and AYP) leads only to dozing off. I can only assume that you have never yourself entered a meditative state, had you done so you would know that the two states are very different.

 

Whilst I am sure that some practitioners believe that cat napping equals a meditative state, no serious and intelligent follower of this meditative technique would be so fooled.

 

The AYP system gives a wealth of practical knowledge free of charge and is presented in such a way as to make the most sophisticated concepts and practices understandable to those who are willing to give their time and effort to its study.

 

I would recommend any Tao Bums who have not yet perused the AYP Site to take a look.

 

Advanced Yoga Practices

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chang

[Tibetan_Ice]

Deep meditation and sleep are two different states of consciousness. You are obviously of the opinion that the practice of mantric meditation (as taught in TM and AYP) leads only to dozing off. I can only assume that you have never yourself entered a meditative state, had you done so you would know that the two states are very different.

 

Whilst I am sure that some practitioners believe that cat napping equals a meditative state, no serious and intelligent follower of this meditative technique would be so fooled.

 

The AYP system gives a wealth of practical knowledge free of charge and is presented in such a way as to make the most sophisticated concepts and practices understandable to those who are willing to give their time and effort to its study.

 

I would recommend any Tao Bums who have not yet perused the AYP Site to take a look.

 

Advanced Yoga Practices

 

Hi Chang

You might be doing your fellow bums a great diservice. Have you really studied the AYP teachings? Are you familiar with how they deviate from the classic Yoga practices? Ever hear of Patanjali?

While you may practice the classic mantra repetition, do you have any experience with TM or 'effortless mantra repetition'?

 

Tell you what, read this http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21469-patanjalis-sutras-and-samyama-questions/

and then we'll talk.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

So then why does the Gelug tradition practice mantra for 3 years? Is Wallace saying it is a waste of time since it does not likely lead to shamatha? He says this is not the intended purpose so what does he believe the intended purpose is? I am not clear on whether or not he is against the 3 year program altogether or just thinks people will use it for the wrong intended purpose and fail. And what does Wallace suggest to do instead of deep meditation in order to attain shamatha? I have not read his books so maybe I am misunderstanding what he is trying to say based on a few quotes.

Hi BillB

There is not much information about mantra repetition in Alan Wallace's books. In "Mind in a Balance" he does mention that the mantra repetition of "AUM" while focusing on the breath is an ancient technique.

What Dr. Wallace is saying, though, is that mantra repetition is not used to produce the state of Shamatha, which is a state of calming the mind. He does not say much else about mantra repetition.

But you know, I have some books about Buddhist mantra repetition and to me, the Buddhist mantras are like prayers, designed to bring about an effect, be it cleansing, manifestion or invoking the aid of a deity.

Dr. Wallace is saying that Anapanasati practice is the method to bring about Shamatha.

If you'd like to learn more about Anapanasati, see these links:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

 

http://www.virtualsynapses.com/2011/08/mindfulness-meditation-on-breath.html

 

Also, for a very clear, excellent book on Shamatha, see:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Revolution-Ph-D-Alan-Wallace/dp/1458783898

 

 

TI

[rex]

So then why does the Gelug tradition practice mantra for 3 years? Is Wallace saying it is a waste of time since it does not likely lead to shamatha? He says this is not the intended purpose so what does he believe the intended purpose is? I am not clear on whether or not he is against the 3 year program altogether or just thinks people will use it for the wrong intended purpose and fail. And what does Wallace suggest to do instead of deep meditation in order to attain shamatha? I have not read his books so maybe I am misunderstanding what he is trying to say based on a few quotes.

Probably yes

 

As far as I know there are two main methods to attaining shamatha - shamatha with support and shamatha without support. With support an image, sound, or activity is focused on. This can be any image, any sound and any activity, they are a means to an end to attain and maintain calm abiding. Mantras possess special qualities so are valuable supports for shamatha.

 

Without support the awareness watches the mind neither encouraging or discouraging what rises.

[Chang]

Hi Chang

You might be doing your fellow bums a great diservice. Have you really studied the AYP teachings? Are you familiar with how they deviate from the classic Yoga practices? Ever hear of Patanjali?

While you may practice the classic mantra repetition, do you have any experience with TM or 'effortless mantra repetition'?

 

Tell you what, read this http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21469-patanjalis-sutras-and-samyama-questions/

and then we'll talk.

 

TI

 

Yes I may well be doing my fellow bums a disservice but then again so may you.

 

I have practiced TM since 1977 and yes I am familiar with effortless mantra repetition.

 

You must remember that there are many paths to the top of the mountain. We must all find our own path and not be too quick to dismiss the practices of others.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chang

[joeblast]

the real key component here is awareness. if you are not cultivating that ,then that leads to what master Nan referred to as 'dead tree Zen.'

[C T]

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, widely revered as the greatest Tibetan yogic master of this age, during the later part of his teaching life, sometimes used to fall into sleep midway thru his talks, albeit for only a few minutes each time. Hearing accounts from the current generation of Tibetan teachers who love to share stories about DKR, they say each time he awoke, he would, without hesitation, continue teaching from where he left off, in a seamless sort of way.

 

This video was made the year prior to his passing away. He had to be supported to the teaching seat by 2 attendants, yet, towards the end of the video, just before commencing his talk, the smile on his face says all there is to say about his level of realization...

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yes I may well be doing my fellow bums a disservice but then again so may you.

 

I have practiced TM since 1977 and yes I am familiar with effortless mantra repetition.

 

You must remember that there are many paths to the top of the mountain. We must all find our own path and not be too quick to dismiss the practices of others.

 

Hi Chang,

Gee, you did not answer some of my questions.

 

Although you are familiar with TM, are you familiar with AYP? I have been examining AYP for 5 years now. And you know what my next question is going to be if you say that you haven't examined AYP that closely?

 

I can see by the fact that you have practiced TM since 1977 that you have a major part of your ego invested in the technique. But, I see that you are perhaps in a position to answer some questions about TM. I have several books on TM and it seems that the majority of conclusions is that TM is something that elicits the relaxation response (cat napping). I have seen some posts by long-term TM meditators such as yourself, some whom have practiced for over 40 years (Rosenthal, Lynch). Yet, they claim no special powers, no hints at enlightenment and cleverly dismiss the classic signs of attainment as either unwanted, a distraction or not what it's all about.

 

In Alan Walace's book called "The Attention Revolution", he writes this:

 

Atisha comments in this regard:

 

Just as a bird with undeveloped wings

Cannot fly in the sky,

Those without the power of extrasensory perception,

Cannot work for the good of living beings.

 

The merit gained in a single day

By someone with extrasensory perception

Cannot be gained even in a hundred lifetimes

By one without extrasensory perception

 

Without the achievement of shamatha

Extrasensory perception will not arise.

Therefore make repeated effort

To accomplish shamatha.

 

And to clearly define 'extrasensory perception', he follows that with this:

 

The First Panchen Lama described the significance of shamatha for the achievement of such abilities:

 

"Due to such practice, the nature of meditative equipose is limpid and very clear, unobscured by anything. Since it is not established as any entity having form, it is vacuous like space, as it were. Moreover, whatever good and bad objects of the five senses arise, it clearly, luminously takes on any appearance, like the relections in a limpid mirror. You have the sense that it cannot be recognized as being this and not being that. However stable such samadhi may be, if is not imbued with the joy of physical and mental pliancy, it is single-pointed attention of the desire realm, whereas samadhi that is so imbued is said to be shamatha; and that is the source of many qualities, such as extrasensory perception and paranormal abilities.

 

Buddhist sources commonly list five mundane kinds of extra sensory perception:

1) Remote viewing, or clairvoyance

2) Clairaudience

3) Knowledge of others' minds

4) Paranormal abilities, such as the ability to mentally control the four elements of earth, water, fire, and air. Examples include moving through solid objects, walking on water, mental control of fire, flying, and mentally multiplying and transforming physical objects at will.

5) Recollection of past lives.

 

So my question to you is very simple. If the realization of shamatha, which is the stilling of the mind, results in extrasensory abilities, after practicing TM for over 35 years, have you realized any of these abilities? Has your practice of TM stilled your mind?

 

I have other questions too.

 

Did the TM organization not have a vow of privacy as to the TM meditation procedures? Isn't 'selling the technique' a violation of this vow?

 

Did the TM organization ever combine Kriya Yoga practices such as pranayama or raising the kundalini along with the meditation routine? Did they ever talk about kundalini?

 

Did the TM organization ever emphasize the 'power of the mantra' and it's power to purify?

 

Hopefully you will be able to remove the mystery for everyone and prove that TM is a viable path to self-realization, that it does lead to Primordial Consciousness and is not just dipping down into the substrate consciousness (that from which all form arises and dissolves back into).

 

I look forward to your responses.

 

TI

[C T]

Hi Chang,

Gee, you did not answer some of my questions.

 

Although you are familiar with TM, are you familiar with AYP? I have been examining AYP for 5 years now. And you know what my next question is going to be if you say that you haven't examined AYP that closely?

 

I can see by the fact that you have practiced TM since 1977 that you have a major part of your ego invested in the technique. But, I see that you are perhaps in a position to answer some questions about TM. I have several books on TM and it seems that the majority of conclusions is that TM is something that elicits the relaxation response (cat napping). I have seen some posts by long-term TM meditators such as yourself, some whom have practiced for over 40 years (Rosenthal, Lynch). Yet, they claim no special powers, no hints at enlightenment and cleverly dismiss the classic signs of attainment as either unwanted, a distraction or not what it's all about.

 

In Alan Walace's book called "The Attention Revolution", he writes this:

 

 

 

And to clearly define 'extrasensory perception', he follows that with this:

 

 

 

So my question to you is very simple. If the realization of shamatha, which is the stilling of the mind, results in extrasensory abilities, after practicing TM for over 35 years, have you realized any of these abilities? Has your practice of TM stilled your mind?

 

I have other questions too.

 

Did the TM organization not have a vow of privacy as to the TM meditation procedures? Isn't 'selling the technique' a violation of this vow?

 

Did the TM organization ever combine Kriya Yoga practices such as pranayama or raising the kundalini along with the meditation routine? Did they ever talk about kundalini?

 

Did the TM organization ever emphasize the 'power of the mantra' and it's power to purify?

 

Hopefully you will be able to remove the mystery for everyone and prove that TM is a viable path to self-realization, that it does lead to Primordial Consciousness and is not just dipping down into the substrate consciousness (that from which all form arises and dissolves back into).

 

I look forward to your responses.

 

TI

Good questions.

[Nickolay]

I have personally had this cat napping problem during shavasana for as long as I've practiced it, admittedly less so recently. There were times when I'd fall into this half-sleeping state but as I'd come out of it I'd find myself extremely relaxed and focused for some time, before falling back in.It was like bouncing from one extreme to the other, from almost non-awareness into an extremely sharp and light awareness. I could never sustain it for very long though, I always fall back in.

 

This is probably my biggest obstacle in meditation right now. I realize that shavasana isn't strictly meditation but it still involves a focusing of awareness on various parts of the body so I don't think it's a stretch to call it a meditational practice. I've tried cold showers before practice, no effect. I've tried suggesting to myself to be aware rather than to relax. I've heard (and I think I agree) that if you do a practice with the intent of relaxation, sleep is far more likely to follow than if you do the practice with the intent of staying aware. Still, this might yet prove to be effective since it's generally considered more of a long term strategy and it hasn't been that long since I first tried it. On the bright side, I rarely fall asleep during sitting meditational practices and I guess that's more important. Still, I feel like shavasana has serious potential for a kind of relaxed awareness that's much more difficult to attain in a sitting position because your body still has to hold itself up to some extent.

[Chang]

Hopefully you will be able to remove the mystery for everyone and prove that TM is a viable path to self-realization, that it does lead to Primordial Consciousness and is not just dipping down into the substrate consciousness (that from which all form arises and dissolves back into).

 

I look forward to your responses.

 

Unfortunately I must disappoint you.

 

I am no more able to remove the mystery of the TM and AYP practices and prove that they are a viable path to realisation than you are able to prove that they are not.

 

Why you find the method of mantric meditation employed by TM and AYP to still the mind such a problem is beyond me. The method is basic and straightforward and so far as AYP is concerned forms the foundation of a much deeper and extensive teaching.

 

Do you honestly believe that practitioners cannot tell the difference between catnapping and transcendent states of consciousness?

 

What contempt you must have for the "intellectual pygmies" who follow these routes. What overwhelming faith you must have in your own method of practice.

 

I have however, neither the time or patience to enter into a pedantic and intellectual debate on the subject..

 

You have obviously spent much time in intellectual study of matters meditative and I fear that this has been to the detriment of your practice.

 

I also suspect that you will see some victory in my reluctance to enter into debate with you.

 

Indeed the victory is yours if you want it for you are obviously very clever and that is a word I would not use to describe myself.

 

I wish you well in your chosen path, whatever that may be.

[de_paradise]

I have personally had this cat napping problem during shavasana for as long as I've practiced it, admittedly less so recently. There were times when I'd fall into this half-sleeping state but as I'd come out of it I'd find myself extremely relaxed and focused for some time, before falling back in.It was like bouncing from one extreme to the other, from almost non-awareness into an extremely sharp and light awareness. I could never sustain it for very long though, I always fall back in.

 

This is probably my biggest obstacle in meditation right now. I realize that shavasana isn't strictly meditation but it still involves a focusing of awareness on various parts of the body so I don't think it's a stretch to call it a meditational practice. I've tried cold showers before practice, no effect. I've tried suggesting to myself to be aware rather than to relax. I've heard (and I think I agree) that if you do a practice with the intent of relaxation, sleep is far more likely to follow than if you do the practice with the intent of staying aware. Still, this might yet prove to be effective since it's generally considered more of a long term strategy and it hasn't been that long since I first tried it. On the bright side, I rarely fall asleep during sitting meditational practices and I guess that's more important. Still, I feel like shavasana has serious potential for a kind of relaxed awareness that's much more difficult to attain in a sitting position because your body still has to hold itself up to some extent.

 

 

Much of my practice is a form of "mindfulness of relaxation", or a kind of mindfulness of something where progressive relaxation is the secondary purpose. The thing is, one is mainly on the threshold of consciousness, while not falling into dream consciousness. The idea is that the bar moves as one gets more used to sitting on the line between conscious and dream. Eventually it becomes easier to maintain a state of conscious awareness. Yogis do fall asleep ocassionally, and pop back up. Its not sinful. Its easy to get back into a meditation state from there even though the sleep temporarily ruins the high energy flow of deep meditation. The advantage to this type of meditation versus a stronger clinging to alertness is a quicker entry to a deeper state, because one's mind is looser, and thus a greater amount of energy flows. I think the disadvantage is that its easy to cheat oneself or one's teacher and think that sleep is meditation.

[Nickolay]

Much of my practice is a form of "mindfulness of relaxation", or a kind of mindfulness of something where progressive relaxation is the secondary purpose. The thing is, one is mainly on the threshold of consciousness, while not falling into dream consciousness. The idea is that the bar moves as one gets more used to sitting on the line between conscious and dream. Eventually it becomes easier to maintain a state of conscious awareness. Yogis do fall asleep ocassionally, and pop back up. Its not sinful. Its easy to get back into a meditation state from there even though the sleep temporarily ruins the high energy flow of deep meditation. The advantage to this type of meditation versus a stronger clinging to alertness is a quicker entry to a deeper state, because one's mind is looser, and thus a greater amount of energy flows. I think the disadvantage is that its easy to cheat oneself or one's teacher and think that sleep is meditation.

Yeah I usually find that when I'm mindful of a certain part of the body, that part immediately tends to relax. I guess the key is to shift the focus more towards mindfulness and let the relaxation follow as a consequence. Easier said than done though.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Nickolay, de_Paradise and others.

I regret using the term 'cat napping' in this context. I'm not actually talking about falling asleep during meditation. I'm talking about the idea that TM makes the meditator dip down into the state of deep sleep with no dreams, or the substrate consciousness, but only for a short while, and one does not learn how to sustain it. If one is lucky enough to maintain awareness throughout the dipping, then s/he realizes that something has happened, and one comes back refreshed, like having taken a cat nap. This process, to me, is a bout of laxity. They call TM the "relaxation response" for a reason.

 

I do appreciate your comments.

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Chang

 

Unfortunately I must disappoint you.

 

I am no more able to remove the mystery of the TM and AYP practices and prove that they are a viable path to realisation than you are able to prove that they are not.

 

One can determine the effectiveness of the practices by the fruits of the practices.

 

I have seen many writings/post by long-term TM meditators, whom have practiced for 30 or 40 years, yet they do not claim to be enlightened, have no siddhis, and are seeking other practices.. I have read many Buddhist books that claim that their practitioners have realized siddhis, the rainbow body, conquered death, realized past lives, become enlightened. For me, that is proof enough. If you cannot or will not use your powers of observation and reason, that is to your detriment.

 

 

Why you find the method of mantric meditation employed by TM and AYP to still the mind such a problem is beyond me. The method is basic and straightforward and so far as AYP is concerned forms the foundation of a much deeper and extensive teaching.

 

Exactly! If the foundation is impotent, then the rest of the system is of no value.

If the roots of the tree are rotten, the branches will soon be bare.

The method is basic, but if it is so basic, why does the TM organization insist that the TM technique must be learned through personal training, which is something that the anti-guru AYP lessons don't supply?

Why are there endless discussions on the AYP forum about "how to perform the mantra?".

Why did I spend 4 years trying to perform the mantra as per Patanjali's 'sustained concentration' with great effort until I finally realized that Yogani's DM/TM was supposed to be effortless?

Why are the samadhis that I reached during 'sustained concentration' longer, more pronounced and blissful than the miniscule amount of time spent dipping in the TM style method?

 

 

Do you honestly believe that practitioners cannot tell the difference between catnapping and transcendent states of consciousness?

 

Nobody on the AYP forum talks about the transcendant state. Further, Yogani dismisses experiences as scenery so there is a general reluctance by it's members to talk about it. Yogani keeps insisting that the fruit of the DM practice is general well-being in daily life, not the transcendant state. According to Yogani, even the enlightened one must keep performing his/her practices.. How ridiculous is that? Practices are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. If one has to keep practising, then they aren't enlightened.

 

The layman, or even the occaisional meditator does not have ability to know the difference between a classic Patanjali-style samadhi, and taking a dip in deep sleep without dreams. It is easy to be a teacher to the ignorant, the children in the spiritual world. It is not so easy when they start to question the teachings and point out flaws.

 

What contempt you must have for the "intellectual pygmies" who follow these routes. What overwhelming faith you must have in your own method of practice.

 

What an arrogant self-serving pernicious statement you have written. Are you trying to bait my ego?

Is that how doing 35 years of TM has benefited you?

 

I have however, neither the time or patience to enter into a pedantic and intellectual debate on the subject..

 

You have obviously spent much time in intellectual study of matters meditative and I fear that this has been to the detriment of your practice.

 

You have no right to comment on my practice. I doubt you even know what my practices are... You do have a habit of talking about things with authority yet you have not done your homework.

 

You, on the other hand, are in a position to answer the questions I posed, but I guess my questions forced you to examine your practice and perhaps come upon some unsavory realizations. Don't you believe that by sharing your experience you would benefit others?

 

I also suspect that you will see some victory in in my reluctance to enter into debate with you.

 

Indeed the victory is yours if you want it for you are obviously very clever and that is a word I would not use to describe myself.

 

I wish you well in your chosen path, whatever that may be.

 

There is no victory here. You are not my enemy. Our enemy is ignorance and hopefully we will both conquer it before our next lives begin and we have to start this all over again.

 

TI

[Chang]

Hi Chang

 

 

 

One can determine the effectiveness of the practices by the fruits of the practices.

 

I have seen many writings/post by long-term TM meditators, whom have practiced for 30 or 40 years, yet they do not claim to be enlightened, have no siddhis, and are seeking other practices.. I have read many Buddhist books that claim that their practitioners have realized siddhis, the rainbow body, conquered death, realized past lives, become enlightened. For me, that is proof enough. If you cannot or will not use your powers of observation and reason, that is to your detriment.

 

Yes this is true. My practice of deep meditation has stilled my mind. I did not progress to any advanced techniques taught by the TM movement but moved onto a Taoist path involving martial arts and energy work. I do still however practice deep meditation using the TM, AYP method. I am sorry to disappoint you but it does work.

 

Keep reading your Buddhist books as you obviously prefer the intellectual approach over the practical.

 

Exactly! If the foundation is impotent, then the rest of the system is of no value.

If the roots of the tree are rotten, the branches will soon be bare.

The method is basic, but if it is so basic, why does the TM organization insist that the TM technique must be learned through personal training, which is something that the anti-guru AYP lessons don't supply?

Why are there endless discussions on the AYP forum about "how to perform the mantra?".

Why did I spend 4 years trying to perform the mantra as per Patanjali's 'sustained concentration' with great effort until I finally realized that Yogani's DM/TM was supposed to be effortless?

Why are the samadhis that I reached during 'sustained concentration' longer, more pronounced and blissful than the miniscule amount of time spent dipping in the TM style method?

 

There are an awful lot of questions here. Let us look carefully at why you spent four years attempting to perform the mantra as per Patanjali's sustained concentration? You are obviously unable to follow simple instructions. I am again sorry to disappoint you but the foundation practice is sound and not as you suggest impotent. I am sorry that you were unable to grasp it simple principal but please do not attack and ridicule those for whom it works.

 

Nobody on the AYP forum talks about the transcendant state. Further, Yogani dismisses experiences as scenery so there is a general reluctance by it's members to talk about it. Yogani keeps insisting that the fruit of the DM practice is general well-being in daily life, not the transcendant state. According to Yogani, even the enlightened one must keep performing his/her practices.. How ridiculous is that? Practices are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. If one has to keep practising, then they aren't enlightened.

 

I would tend to agree with Yogani and not worry overmuch regarding the scenery. I also tend to agree regarding the continuation of practice following enlightenment. I would not however claim to be enlightened and should I reach this state my view may change. I will let you know.

 

The layman, or even the occaisional meditator does not have ability to know the difference between a classic Patanjali-style samadhi, and taking a dip in deep sleep without dreams. It is easy to be a teacher to the ignorant, the children in the spiritual world. It is not so easy when they start to question the teachings and point out flaws.

 

Here we go again. Please do not be so arrogant as to state dogmatically what others have the ability to know.

 

 

 

What an arrogant self-serving pernicious statement you have written. Are you trying to bait my ego?

Is that how doing 35 years of TM has benefited you?

 

This is a statement of fact regarding your attitude gleaned from your writing.

 

 

You have no right to comment on my practice. I doubt you even know what my practices are... You do have a habit of talking about things with authority yet you have not done your homework.

 

You are quite right. I have no idea what your practices are as you appear to remain silent regarding them though I suspect that they are of a deeply intellectual nature performed when you have time to break away from you campaign against AYP.

You, on the other hand, are in a position to answer the questions I posed, but I guess my questions forced you to examine your practice and perhaps come upon some unsavory realizations. Don't you believe that by sharing your experience you would benefit others?

 

I do not consider myself in a position to answer your questions as I do not consider myself a member of AYP or the TM movement. I do however practice deep meditation and will continue to do so. The fact that you were unable to master such a simple discipline does not mean that it does not work.

 

 

There is no victory here. You are not my enemy. Our enemy is ignorance and hopefully we will both conquer it before our next lives begin and we have to start this all over again.

 

TI

 

No we are not enemies as I do not consider you in any way a worthy opponent. I am however concerned regarding your character which appears to be that of an Intellectual Anarchist.

 

You spend overmuch time attacking AYP but so far I see no recommendations to AYP students as to an alternative path for them to follow.

 

I can understand why you post your rants on the Tao Bums as you have been banned from the AYP forum. I fear that the end result is that you are simply feeding your grievance. This is far from healthy.

 

So to sum up.

 

Let us have a little less rant and humbug concerning the AYP system. They gave you the old bums rush from their forum for being a pain in the backside but what the hell!

 

Let us have a little less of the Intellectual Anarchist. Stop ranting and start giving details of an alternative practice which you consider better.

 

Stop quoting from various intellectual books and start speaking from your own knowledge base.

 

And lastly stop being so damned clever.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

 

Chang. An unrepentant practitioner of deep meditation

Edited July 4, 2012 by Chang

[gatito]

No we are not enemies as I do not consider you in any way a worthy opponent. I am however concerned regarding your character which appears to be that of an Intellectual Anarchist.

 

You spend overmuch time attacking AYP but so far I see no recommendations to AYP students as to an alternative path for them to follow.

 

I can understand why you post your rants on the Tao Bums as you have been banned from the AYP forum. I fear that the end result is that you are simply feeding your grievance. This is far from healthy.

 

So to sum up.

 

Let us have a little less rant and humbug concerning the AYP system. They gave you the old bums rush from their forum for being a pain in the backside but what the hell!

 

Let us have a little less of the Intellectual Anarchist. Stop ranting and start giving details of an alternative practice which you consider better.

 

Stop quoting from various intellectual books and start speaking from your own knowledge base.

 

And lastly stop being so damned clever.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

 

Chang. An unrepentant practitioner of deep meditation

 

Isn't this rather insulting?

[Chang]

Isn't this rather insulting?

 

It may be considered insulting but it is also necessary.

 

Efforts are being made to discredit both a method of meditation and an organisation teaching it.

 

The person making these efforts has not only admitted failing to master a simple technique but has also admitted failing to follow the simple instructions which were freely given.

 

Having failed to master the basic technique on which the organisations teaching rests they have then gone on to rubbish more advanced techniques quoting references from unrelated systems in an attempt to substantiate their claims.

 

I am sorry if I have caused you offence. I can see no good reason to further my exchange of opinions with the creator of this post at present but should they create further posts of a similar nature then it may well prove necessary for me to speak out again.

[gatito]

It may be considered insulting but it is also necessary.

 

Efforts are being made to discredit both a method of meditation and an organisation teaching it.

 

The person making these efforts has not only admitted failing to master a simple technique but has also admitted failing to follow the simple instructions which were freely given.

 

Having failed to master the basic technique on which the organisations teaching rests they have then gone on to rubbish more advanced techniques quoting references from unrelated systems in an attempt to substantiate their claims.

 

I am sorry if I have caused you offence. I can see no good reason to further my exchange of opinions with the creator of this post at present but should they create further posts of a similar nature then it may well prove necessary for me to speak out again.

 

Firstly, your assumption that you have caused me offence is incorrect and therefore you owe me no apology.

 

Secondly, let me rephrase my question and add a supplemental, as I'm unclear about your response: -

 

Do you consider the post insulting and if so do you intend to continue in the same vein?

[Birch]

It may be considered insulting but it is also necessary.

 

Efforts are being made to discredit both a method of meditation and an organisation teaching it.

 

The person making these efforts has not only admitted failing to master a simple technique but has also admitted failing to follow the simple instructions which were freely given.

 

Having failed to master the basic technique on which the organisations teaching rests they have then gone on to rubbish more advanced techniques quoting references from unrelated systems in an attempt to substantiate their claims.

 

I am sorry if I have caused you offence. I can see no good reason to further my exchange of opinions with the creator of this post at present but should they create further posts of a similar nature then it may well prove necessary for me to speak out again.

 

 

"Efforts are being made to discredit both a method of meditation and an organisation teaching it."

 

That may or may not be the case here. My question would be 'if so, why?'. I mean really why? it's not like there's only one way of meditating or one organization that teaches X numbers of versions of meditation. I reckon you weren't around on this forum for the 'Kunlun debates' but I'd look that one up:-)

 

Seth Ananda also posted something I found interesting (or at least got my ears perked up:-)) when he mentioned that there were specific things he would not teach to certain people because they were risky, requiring super-close supervision (please correct me if I'm wrong Seth). And I found myself admiring him for understanding enough about his craft not to do it under certain circumstances.

 

Of course my curiosity got tweaked at the same time and I found myself wanting to try whatever he was withholding from general circulation but then I remembered the kundalini and reasoned that I had a relatively 'lucky' time of it so why go looking for more trouble;-)

 

My point is that if the practices on AYP are innocuous enough then there ought not to be any reason to get all 'proprietary' about them. Last time I checked, meditation was about freeing consciousness.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yes this is true. My practice of deep meditation has stilled my mind. I did not progress to any advanced techniques taught by the TM movement but moved onto a Taoist path involving martial arts and energy work. I do still however practice deep meditation using the TM, AYP method. I am sorry to disappoint you but it does work.

Hi Chong

Define "work". It is easy to talk through your hat, isn't it? I think you are deluded, and very disrepectful.

A gap in consecutive awareness is not stilling the mind. A lapse of consciousness, as in the return from deep sleep is not stilling the mind. Shutting off the little voice in your head is not stilling the mind. Preparing the next sutra to drop into AYP's bastardization of the term "samyama" from inner silence, is not functioning from a stilled mind. A stilled mind does not function, nor does it remember the next sutra or perform any functions of conceptuality. How could it?

If you have never tasted true samadhi how would you know if TM/DM works? You wouldn't have anything to compare and assess.

 

There are an awful lot of questions here. Let us look carefully at why you spent four years attempting to perform the mantra as per Patanjali's sustained concentration?

Part of the reason is because when I first 'joined' AYP, I read all of the lessons, especially the part where it referenced Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga. So, I assumed it was the classic interpretation of fixating on a form until the outer world dissolves, the subject and object become one and samadhi is realized. It wasn't until later, when I started to question AYP's definition of inner silence that I realized that Yogani had bastardized the last three limbs of yoga and diverted from the classic, commonly accepted ancient writing. When I was in samadhi, filled with light and bliss and joy, there was no way I could even conceive of functioning from that state. Yet, in AYP, you drop the sutra from inner silence. You remember the sutra while in a state of inner silence. So how could inner silence be samadhi? It's a deception. A big lie. Just a bunch of clever inventions that Yogani invented in order to make people believe they were actually doing classic Yoga.

 

You are obviously unable to follow simple instructions. I am again sorry to disappoint you but the foundation practice is sound and not as you suggest impotent. I am sorry that you were unable to grasp it simple principal but please do not attack and ridicule those for whom it works.

Like I said, if you have never tasted caviar, then you would believe that sardines is the real thing.

You have yet to prove to me that "the foundation practice is sound". Perhaps you could tell us the difference between the TM state of transcendance and samadhi arising from sustained concentration. I know I can.

 

I would tend to agree with Yogani and not worry overmuch regarding the scenery. I also tend to agree regarding the continuation of practice following enlightenment.

The 'scenery', a worthless thing to AYP, has very many purposes and is quite usefull. It serves as signs that one is progressing. In anapanasati meditation, you have heard of Buddha haven't you? In anapansati meditation, once one has calmed the body and mind, nimittas (bright light or lights) appear. At that point you have to change your focus from the breath to focusing on the nimitta. Merging into the nimitta propels you into samadhi or one of the jhanas. If you regard the nimitta as 'scenery', then you've missed it. I will never forget what Yogani wrote. He said that if you are meditating and you see Jesus, you should ignore him and go back to repeating the mantra. Well, JESUS IS NOT SCENERY! How dare Yogani fill his books with references and quotes from Jesus and then have the audacity to regard Jesus as scenery, and to teach that!

 

See, your brain has turned to mush. If you think that you still have to meditate and perform practices after realization, then that realization isn't authentic. Do yourself a favor. Look up Omnipotence, Omniprescence and Omnicience on the wiki.

 

You are quite right. I have no idea what your practices are as you appear to remain silent regarding them though I suspect that they are of a deeply intellectual nature performed when you have time to break away from you campaign against AYP.

Did you really think that I would present my practices and boast or proclaim that they are superior? That's not the point. We are all at different levels of ripeness, with varying samskaras and karma. Some practices will work better for some. That is one point that was previously brought up. An authentic guru, having honed their intuition, can tell (not only previous lives of their students) what the student needs to accomplish intuitively. Further, just standing in an enlightened guru's light, in person, is enough to give you a true taste. That is something you don't get at AYP. What I object to is inventing practices, claiming to be Patanjali's yoga, removing the AUM from practices, preaching about the dangers of premature crown opening (the entrance for the Holy Spirit), simplifying practices and teachings to make them more palatable and more easily acceptable to the lowest common denominator. What I object to is a self-serving anti-guru anti-shaktipat teacher who attacks other teachings, misinterprets those teachings and tries to convince everyone that his way is the best.

 

What I object to is AYP advertising that the contributions to the forum are the property of the authors, and then Yogani takes those posts and puts them in ebooks and sells them. What I object to is the fact that for years it was advertised on AYP that you could delete your posts at any time, yet when I went to delete my posts, I could not. I was being conned and deceived. What I object to is all the brilliant people who were banned from AYP for presenting their honest opinions and beliefs which were contrary to AYP's teachings.

 

You spend overmuch time attacking AYP but so far I see no recommendations to AYP students as to an alternative path for them to follow.

It is not up to me to provide people with an alternative path to follow. There are many authentic paths out there. It is up to people to learn and decide for themselves.

 

I can understand why you post your rants on the Tao Bums as you have been banned from the AYP forum. I fear that the end result is that you are simply feeding your grievance. This is far from healthy.

You know, I wasted a lot of time doing AYP practices, especially DM. I learned bad habits, and they are hard to break. Meditation is not effortless. If it is, then you're heading in the wrong direction. If you don't increase your vividness, your level of awareness and attentiveness while relaxing your body and mind, you will fall into laxity as apparently you have done, and injured your intelligence.

 

Patanjali's road map, a logical progression of working on the body through asanas, then pranayama, then pratyahara, then concentration then meditation and finally samadhi is a linear path which has a specific purpose. It is a culmination of the steps, done in proper order.

 

But look what Yogani has done! He has taken the linear steps and mixed them all up. This is from his latest book called "Liberation"

Traditionally, the eight limbs of yoga have been taught in order. But in modern times we have seen variations in the order to optimize the evolution of human spiritual tendencies for purification and opening. In the AYP approach we begin with spiritual desire (bhakti) and go straight to deep meditation (dharana and dhyana), which cultivates abiding inner silence (samadhi). Then spinal breathing pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas and tantric methods are added according individual preference to facilitate the process of awakening ecstatic conductivity and radiance. Along the way, samyama is added to begin moving inner silence outward into the nervous system and the external environment in an increasing flow, which leads to increasing spiritual desire, and a natural tendency toward self-inquiry (jnana), service (karma yoga), and liberation (moksha).

 

Yogani (2012-05-23). Liberation - The Fruition of Yoga (AYP Enlightenment Series) (pp. 12-13). AYP Publishing.

 

If Patanjali's Sutras have stood the test of time and is the foundation of modern yoga, how can we disrespect those teachings and turn them into a hodge podge of oatmeal like Yogani has done? Is that why there are so many overloads at AYP? Is that why Yogani invented self-pacing, which, incidentally, he recommends that one might have to do even in his invention of the AYP samayama? Is that why even Yogani, whom has practiced for over 40 years still has overloads as he revealed in his posts on the forum?

 

Here is the Anapansati, the authentic teaching from The Buddha:

[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long.

[2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short.

[3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body.

[4] He trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to breathe out calming the bodily processes.

[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture.

[6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure.

[7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental processes, and to breathe out sensitive to mental processes.

[8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.

[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind.

[10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind.

[11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind.

[12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.

[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy.

[14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion.

[15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation.

[16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment.

 

See the logical linear progression? There is a purpose to it. The purpose is there for a reason. It progresses from coarse to fine.

 

Here is a quote from Buddha. Buddha was a proponent of learning and knowledge.

 

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of Teachers, elders or wise men. Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and live up to it."

 

The Buddha

 

 

 

So to sum up.

 

Let us have a little less rant and humbug concerning the AYP system. They gave you the old bums rush from their forum for being a pain in the backside but what the hell!

 

Let us have a little less of the Intellectual Anarchist. Stop ranting and start giving details of an alternative practice which you consider better.

 

Stop quoting from various intellectual books and start speaking from your own knowledge base.

 

And lastly stop being so damned clever.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

 

Chang. An unrepentant practitioner of deep meditation[/color]

 

Reasoning is harmful

To fools;

It ruins their good fortune

And splits open their heads.

 

The Buddha

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi,

It seems I am not the only person who has found fault with Yogani and his yogic inventions...

There is better out there. Much better - from an Amazon review

 

Yogani" wrongly equates tantra with sexual practice. Yogani also probably believes that Buddha is "that fat guy". Read Gavin Flood's "The Tantric Body" or Ronald Davidon's "Indian Esoteric Buddhism". Sexual practice is not even a defining part of tantra. A good analogy is calling a cupholder a car. A cupholder is not even an important part of the car, and many cars don't even have cupholders. Despite omniscient Yogani's claim of what everyone thinks when they hear the word "tantra", when I hear and use the word "tantra", I don't think of sex at all. Thats because I am somewhat marginally educated. Fresh off the boat Brahmin priests will use the word tantra in front of little kids. Noone except Yogani believes tantra equals sexual practice. Even western neotantrics will say "tantric sex" and not merely "tantra."

 

If you think I am a prude, I can assure you I am not. I have no problem with sexual practice. Just don't call it tantra. Call it karmamudra, consort practice, union practice etc. There are many proper names. Calling it tantra is quite ignorant.

 

Yogani's whole approach to nonduality is wrong, from AYAM meditations to witnessing. Witnessing is merely grasping the conceptualizing mind. Witnessing is another word for mindfullness. Yogani has argued, that when he says "witnessing" he does not mean this. Yet he has also said that witnessing is a result of meditation and practice. Basically AYP is all contrived meditation nonsense.

 

Such errors are due to having a big guru complex, despite his catch phrase the "guru is inside you." Listen to any podcast interview of Yogani, and you will see what I mean.

 

Where to go from here? Well I recommend reading "Khecarividya Of Adinatha" by James Mallinson. This will give you *real* instructions on kechari mudra, tantra and yoga in general. Also read chapter 14 in David Gordon White's book "Yoga in Practice". Regarding nonduality please read "Center of the Sunlit Sky".

 

TI