Where spirituality and science meet, Genes and Taoism.

[AstralProjectee]

Genes and spirituality or just Taoism. I think it would be really cool if we can find different types of spiritual people then test their genes. Especially Taoists because of their fundamental shift in the nervous system and then find the genes that are activated and deactivated between Taoists and ordinary people. Then everyone can get a boost in meditation and Taoist practices by just modifying the genes in some way without all the practice.

 

Especially if we can find enlightened people. People that have really really modified there nervous system body and spirit.

 

We can even find which genes are responsible for luid dreaming and astral projection.

 

Of course it will not be one gene but a set of genes that have different functions.

 

Our nervous system has evolved a primitive nervous system. It serves us good as long as we are not under stress as soon as trauma or stress comes it's all over. We can find gene groups that will achieve a certain goal in our nervous system to alleviate stress and at the same time it these groups of genes will have a certain effect. Once we take control of our evolution through science and modifying genes and DNA the sky will be the limit for our evolution.

 

A group has already tested meditators for gene differences. Then they found a group of normal people and had them start meditating and then their genes were modified after meditating a time.

 

I read that there is a certain spiritual practice that can help evolve your off spring I forget what it is called.

 

Peace!

[Cat Pillar]

I think using gene therapy for spiritual advancement would be playing with fire.

 

Assuming it would even work in the first place, "jump-starting" someone like that could have severe psychological consequences.

 

Not to mention, the beauty of spiritual paths is in the journey itself, not the end destination.

 

In my humble opinion, there will never be a replacement for practice. I'm all about finding effective and efficient practices, but "practice" is always a vital piece of the equation.

 

Gene therapy can't replace all of the lessons you can only learn on the road.

 

On the other hand, using gene therapy for stress reduction and other medical applications is something I'm a lot more open to.

[Cheshire Cat]

I think that this is an extremely intricate process based on trial & error.

If this way were suitable, than I'll suggest to work on it for physical immortality.

 

Dao instead is very simple. So simple that Lao Tzu said "Very few could understand".

 

For meditation improvement, I think it's better to use sounds... traditional, bineural, tri-neural,Iso-chronic ....

...as meditators did from time immemorial

[AstralProjectee]

I agree cat. I am sure when meditators years ago first starting working with kundalini or chi they got hurt. I'm sure quite a few died, but in the end they established rules to which you can use chi.

 

That should not stop us from learning which gene groups to activate first. I would imagine we can activate one group work with that for a while then another group. And so on. We will not move on the the next group until there are goals that have been meet first.

 

 

Peace!

[mike 134]

Interesting topic. Having a gene is not the same as activating ("expressing") it. If you don't have it from birth you can never express it. So if genes are responsible for spirituality, enlightened ppl both have them and express them, but If you don't have the genes you can never express them, even if you knew exactly which genes are involved. Unless if you use gene therapy to introduce the said genes, but that would be almost impossible. The best that you can hope for is to find ways of expressing the genes in ppl that already have them. But this is none other than spirituality.

 

I highly doubt that something as vaulted as enlightenment is the responsibility of a single gene. Even height is the result of dozens of genes. I suspect that spiritually gifted ppl have more of those genes than others, making it more likely they will be expressed. Tinkering with them artificially is a very bad idea. It would probably lead to all sorts of neurological and psychiatric problems. Further, although one condition can be the result of several genes, each gene can affect many different things... One gene might be both a spiritual gene and a height gene. We only have 20,000-30,000 genes believe it or not, so many of them do double duty. So if it gets activated from birth you might end up a dwarf, or suffer unintended consequences years down the line.

 

I am a lifelong lucid dreamer who is suffering kundalini right now. I bet I have a lot of these genes in my genome, in fact so many that I got kundalini completely spontaneously despite having zero spiritual inclination and never having practiced meditation. I would be furious if I learned that somebody amped up my genes from birth !

[The Eternal Student]

I would have to agree with MIke. I dont see any logical way spirituality could have an impact on genes. However mental plasticity most definately is involved through cultivating a spiritual lifestyle. Mental Plasticity is the ability for the brain to rewire cognitive functions despite what it was wired to before (think of changing habits or athletes training to the point where they have unconscious physical reactions that dont occur in nature) If we could study the minds of people who are enlightened or highly spiritual we would be able to find the specific areas of the brain that are in use during different activities. Meditation, prayer, etc. This could not be replicated in others, but being able to specify parts of the brain used in spiritual pursuits could lead to knowledge of different mental excercises that would help increase the rate of change in the pasticity of those parts of the brain. There is amazing research in brain plasticity that could possibly be applied to spirirtual applications in the distant future. For example look at this speech from a man doing studies to help the elderly with alzheimers and dementia and possibly more importantly those suffering from learning disabilities.

 

Michael Merzenich on re-wiring the brain (TEDTalks)

[AstralProjectee]

I would have to agree with MIke. I dont see any logical way spirituality could have an impact on genes.

I disagree. Besides I just gave a study that found meditation genes. I can find the link if you want.

 

All you have to do is test mediator and non-meditators and look at the gene differences.

 

As far as being born with deleted genes, that is I believe in only certain cases where people were found to have some medical problem.

 

You can have deactivated genes but unlikely to have deleted genes.

 

I highly doubt that something as vaulted as enlightenment is the responsibility of a single gene. Even height is the result of dozens of genes.

Did you read what I said in my other posts. I said that we would use sets or groups of genes at different stages. Do you want to retract that statement.

 

Tinkering with them artificially is a very bad idea. It would probably lead to all sorts of neurological and psychiatric problems.

You don't understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that in maybe 500 years from now we will probably have safe tested reliable gene therapies for guiding one on the spiritual path. We will have a beginner group of genes for beginners. Then when they have advanced with that group of genes then they can phase out into another group of genes for intermediates. And so on.

 

We will find these beginner, intermediate and advanced groups of spiritual genes by testing different groups of naturally spiritual people at those different stages to find the genes that are activated at each stage of the spiritual path. A beginner should not take advanced genes, as that will case problems.

 

As far as height, we'll enlightened people don't grow, so neither will the genes in the gene therapy cause a height problem. Since we will test enlightened ppl to find those genes.

 

I would be furious if I learned that somebody amped up my genes from birth !

Obviously we will just have the option for gene therapy only later in life, as an option, and then as we find a definite way to enhance spirituality at conception then we can deal with that then. Which is much, much later after probably hundreds of thousands of studies. This is obviously something you don't want to play around with unless you fully understand and test what you are doing first.

 

Peace!

Edited July 4, 2012 by AstralProjectee

[Jetsun]

I would have to agree with MIke. I dont see any logical way spirituality could have an impact on genes. However mental plasticity most definately is involved through cultivating a spiritual lifestyle. Mental Plasticity is the ability for the brain to rewire cognitive functions despite what it was wired to before (think of changing habits or athletes training to the point where they have unconscious physical reactions that dont occur in nature) If we could study the minds of people who are enlightened or highly spiritual we would be able to find the specific areas of the brain that are in use during different activities. Meditation, prayer, etc. This could not be replicated in others, but being able to specify parts of the brain used in spiritual pursuits could lead to knowledge of different mental excercises that would help increase the rate of change in the pasticity of those parts of the brain. There is amazing research in brain plasticity that could possibly be applied to spirirtual applications in the distant future. For example look at this speech from a man doing studies to help the elderly with alzheimers and dementia and possibly more importantly those suffering from learning disabilities.

 

Michael Merzenich on re-wiring the brain (TEDTalks)

 

This has already been done / being done at the moment, look up the Mind and Life institute and the tests they did on people like Mingur Rinpoche, certain areas of his brain were so active the scientists thought their machines were broken. In one test they showed that in just 8 weeks a novice meditator can improve the activity of the left frontal cortex of their brain by 15%. They are already mapping out how these practices mould and change the brain and which areas are affected.

 

So the brain is certainly changeable and I have heard one Qigong master say that you can influence the genes if you go deep enough to clear out the storehouse level of consciousness it fundamentally changes a person.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Jetsun

[AstralProjectee]

So the brain is certainly changeable and I have heard one Qigong master say that you can influence the genes if you go deep enough to clear out the storehouse level of consciousness it fundamentally changes a person.

Interesting thought, it would make sense that the more primitive parts of the brain of a master would have such an ability under something as power of meditation.

 

Peace and light!

Edited July 4, 2012 by AstralProjectee

[SeriesOfTubes]

In light of neuroscience and studies using DNA microarray technology over the last ten years, there is no question that meditation/qi gong/tai chi and related disciplines would have some effect on gene expression. Most people think of classical mendelian deterministic genetics when they think of when they think or read about genes but are not aware of the new functional genomics of molecular biology that is generating the new DNA technology. The new functional genomics of molecular biology focuses on broad patterns of gene expression rather than one-gene/one-function or one trait approach of early mendelian genetics. The separation between nature (genes) and nurture (life experience) is old outdated dogma that hasn't really been taken seriously by researchers since at least the 60s as far as I can tell. Some of these broader patterns relevant to this thread include:

 

Immediate early Genes: IEG's respond to psychosocial cues and significant life events in a matter of minutes, as the mediators between nature and nurture they receive signals from the environment to activate genes that code for the formation of proteins which then carry out the adaptive functions of the cell in health and illness.

 

Behavioral State Related Gene Expression:Different states of behavior and consciousness are associated with different patterns of behavioral state related gene expression, a genetic source of behavior that can be modulated by psychosocial cues and cultural rituals to facilitate health performance and healing.

 

Activity-Dependent Gene Expression: learning to do something new initiates cascades of molecular genomic processes termed activity-dependent gene expression, this class of genes generates the proteins and growth factors that signal stem cells in the brain to differentiate into newly functioning neurons with new connections between them. Likewise, stem cells in tissues though out the body receive psychogenomic signals then enable them to replace injured cells with healthy ones: a process which is proposed to be a basic dynamic of the healing placebo response.

 

The novelty-numinosum-neurogenisis effect: novelty, enriching life experiences, and exercise associated with a positive sense of curiosity and wonder can turn on activity-dependent gene expression to construct and reconstruct the brain and how it works throughout the lifespan. The novelty-numinosum-neurogenesis effect documents how highly motivated states of consciousness can turn on and focus gene expression, protein synthesis, neurotransmitters, and neurogenesis in daily creative work.

 

 

If you want more info check out the Psychobiology of Gene Expression: Neuroscience and Neurogenisis in hypnosis and the healing arts, by Ernest Rossi.. it's quite dense but is pulls a ton of information together since the human genome was mapped in 2000. To a great degree is outlines many more very important questions need to be investigated. There's also a free E-book here that is related: http://ernestrossi.com/ebook/index.html It is mostly geared towards licensed therapists who practice naturalistic (Ericksonian) hypnotherapy or psychotherapy, but it details many of the themes I mentioned that are certainly relevant to spirituality, arts, meditative disciplines for sure..

Edited July 4, 2012 by SeriesOfTubes

[konchog uma]

thank you for that informative post seriesoftubes!

[SeriesOfTubes]

Yeah, no problem Anamatva. One of the most fascinating things I have read about gene expression and brain growth is that brain gene expression during sleep depends on prior waking experience.. That during REM sleep, a gene called zif-268 is up-regulated following exposure to an enriched environment (which is pretty much another way of saying if you have an interesting day and learned or discovered something new as opposed to a dull and monotonous day you are actually generating brain growth at some level).

 

The initial discovery was in 1999. The original study describes a window of neuronal plasticity in rats during REM sleep that follows a rich waking experience.. suggesting a possible mechanism whereby previous waking experiences can contribute to long lasting changes in the brain. There's been even more support since which has pretty much confirmed it in humans (as well as uncovered even richer data), a pilot study in 2008 with three human subjects and very recently with 21 human subjects in Italy (to which I only have the audio from a conference where this study was presented, I'm not sure whether its even been published in english yet): 11 men, 10 women, median age 40, DNA microanalysis of white blood cells collected after treatment, before treatment and 24 hours after.. It would be amazing to find even one, such as zif-268, but they found something like something like 90 genes up regulated and 24 genes down regulated after the treatment which I believe was a Rossi/Ericksonian style mind-body hypnosis intervention aimed towards evoking creative exploration of one's internal experience. Rossi is all about the ever growing creative edge between the conscious and unconscious..

 

 

Abstract

 

In most mammalian species studied, two distinct and successive phases of sleep, slow wave (SW), and rapid eye movement (REM), can be recognized on the basis of their EEG profiles and associated behaviors. Both phases have been implicated in the offline sensorimotor processing of daytime events, but the molecular mechanisms remain elusive. We studied brain expression of the plasticity-associated immediate-early gene (IEG) zif-268 during SW and REM sleep in rats exposed to rich sensorimotor experience in the preceding waking period. Whereas nonexposed controls show generalized zif-268 down-regulation during SW and REM sleep, zif-268 is upregulated during REM sleep in the cerebral cortex and the hippocampus of exposed animals. We suggest that this phenomenon represents a window of increased neuronal plasticity during REM sleep that follows enriched waking experience.

 

Further info for anyone interested.. (also Ernest Rossi's site has most of the important studies he was a part of over the last 30 years)

 

original 1999 article

 

Neuroplasticity, Psychosocial Genomics, and the Biopsychosocial Paradigm in the 21st Century

[konchog uma]

that brain gene expression during sleep is contingent upon prior waking experiences makes sense to me intuitively, for what thats worth. I mean dreams work that way, and if you avoid new age explanations of dreams, you are left essentially with brain activity, period. That still raises a lot of questions (like if we don't need sense organs to perceive, why do we have them at all?, and can the mind perceive directly without the interface of sense organs, as in OOBEs?, etc)

 

i couldnt keep up with that abstract or the link, too technical and heady sorry

 

i am not a hardcore scholar by any means, i find the language somewhat alienating

[SeriesOfTubes]

that brain gene expression during sleep is contingent upon prior waking experiences makes sense to me intuitively, for what thats worth. I mean dreams work that way, and if you avoid new age explanations of dreams, you are left essentially with brain activity, period. That still raises a lot of questions (like if we don't need sense organs to perceive, why do we have them at all?, and can the mind perceive directly without the interface of sense organs, as in OOBEs?, etc)

 

i couldnt keep up with that abstract or the link, too technical and heady sorry

 

i am not a hardcore scholar by any means, i find the language somewhat alienating

 

I think that piece about dreams is referring to specifically REM (rapid eye movement ) stage of sleep, so it would make intuitive sense that it would be somehow related to waking learning experiences given the literal movement of the eyeballs, but who's to say what is happening during the slow-wave (SW) state? I tend to restrain from the reductionist assumption that the mind (or subjective experience) is a product of brain activity..I think of these as different levels of analysis that exist simultaneously. Another favorite researcher of mine, Dan Seigel, who studies the effects of mindfulness meditation on the brain, neuroscience, and trauma runs a research center at UCLA. He describes the mind, the brain, and relationships as "primes". And that just like prime numbers in math, any one of these three cannot be reduced or explained as a function of the other two.. and in many instances, the word "brain" is just short hand referring to the entire body as a system. And each of the three can influence and shape the other, for example, the brain can drag the mind around (which could be what we call pathology), relationships can influence the brain/body and vice versa—for example when Salvidor Minuchin demonstrated that he could change a diabetic child's blood sugar levels by making structural changes in the family system (relationships). What is probably most validating for meditators is that in many cases, mental (or subjective) experience of mindfulness—and probably many other forms of meditation, mindfulness just happens to have the best research—can literally pull the brain out of a rut (pathology). So for me it's exiting to see the bio/psycho/social paradigm being embraced more and more across disciplines because it really points to the interdependence of everything.

 

What is cool about Rossi and colleagues IMO is his research seems to be bridging the split between mind and body so that's another paradigm shift in sciences that is particularly relevant to psychology, sociology, spirituality, the arts, music etc.

 

Sorry if I bombarded with to many tech terms.. didn't mean to alienate. Since I got to grad school I've gone to town with using its resources for stuff I find interesting.. Abstracts are basically for getting an idea of whether or not you want to read the article, so I'd say you used it right.. Basically an abstract is a concise summary of what the hypothesis was, how it was tested, and whether or not results supported the hypothesis.. useful to know if you have to sift through a large amount of research in a short period of time, but I agree it can get very dense since it's function is to compress an often huge undertaking into a paragraph.

Edited July 6, 2012 by SeriesOfTubes