ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 Maybe? Guess what? Maybe Laozi was a clueless American liberal. How's that? LaoTze was clueless about American English alright..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 27, 2012 But how do you associate "spiritual and physical" with " 有 (you) and 無(wu)" addressed in Chapter 1? That is one hell of a giant leap even for Sun WuKong (孫悟空) let alone a Cantonese. 等著瞧吧 ！ . . (dawei, good idea. 'scusi) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 27, 2012 Perhaps your read of The Laozi finds the 'self' to be a 'huge obstacle to the awakening of realization'; my take is one of suggested integration, a more natural connection without exclusion. We each have our own ways, yes? It's natural our perspectives would be different. I don't think you two are talking exactly the same thing so it does appear as a difference. But if one talks about an 'awakening of realization', it would mean (to me) that the natural connection without exclusion is simply not what they are aware of or have come to be aware of. Clearly, daoist had different thoughts than the confucians or legalists but they all would probably admit to a natural connection without exclusion since that was fundamental to the world view of all the philosophies. But if a person's awareness is purely a social context or a political context then I think it not really yet looking to the source in the way Lao Zi does. JMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 Then, let us discuss it. Even if no one else pays attention. Hey! I'm paying attention, just trying to remain silent. I already talk too much. So, go for it. You will have at least one reader. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Oh, you weren't talking about integrating people? Sorry, my mistake and I slap my face for that. But how do you associate "spiritual and physical" with " 有 (you) and 無(wu)" addressed in Chapter 1? That is one hell of a giant leap even for Sun WuKong (孫悟空) let alone a Cantonese. 等著瞧吧 ！(Let's wait and see!) yiming.... Be nice to rene, she sounds like she is a Cantonese too.... She may know more than we do. BTW She is right about associating "spiritual and physical" with " 有 (you) and 無(wu)". 無(wu) is spiritual because Tao was invisible at the beginning of heaven and earth. 有 (you) is physical because Tao has been manifested by all things that are being created. Edited August 27, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 等著瞧吧 ！ I hope that doesn't mean what I thought it might mean. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) I hope that doesn't mean what I thought it might mean. No, she only said: "Let's wait and see!" Edited August 27, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 No, she only said: "Let's wait and see!" Hehehe. I feel much better now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted August 27, 2012 Then, let us discuss it. Even if no one else pays attention. OK tell me in what chapters do we find mention or inferences of the female principle? Sorry I'm not just going to spill the beans. You folks know just as well. Then we can explore it. Let us just use the transmission I was given, then we can have no misunderstandings. Yin; black, female, shade, soft, yielding, nurturing, deep, infinite................. add to the list at will! Wu: female shaman (nu wu) dancing holding feathers Taoist magic; female giving birth to life The grand ultimate: Female, soft overcoming the hard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 27, 2012 Wu: female shaman (nu wu) dancing holding feathers wu2 (sealscript) . . .(nice thread, fh, looking forward to your posts!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 27, 2012 OK tell me in what chapters do we find mention or inferences of the female principle? Sorry I'm not just going to spill the beans. You folks know just as well. Then we can explore it. Let us just use the transmission I was given, then we can have no misunderstandings. Yin; black, female, shade, soft, yielding, nurturing, deep, infinite................. add to the list at will! Wu: female shaman (nu wu) dancing holding feathers Taoist magic; female giving birth to life The grand ultimate: Female, soft overcoming the hard. Depending on the depth, it is present in almost all chapters. But for our discussion, the first description is in chapter 8. The greatest good is like water. Water gives life to the Ten Thousand Things, but does not strive. Because it does not strive, it flows in places without preference, depending on the flow and so is like the Dao. Your thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted August 28, 2012 Please take this to Rene's Thread, The Two States of Tao: http://thetaobums.co...-states-of-tao/ Let us get back to the main themes defined by the thread.... Thanks. I was just making an exclamation like "mama mia!" and have no intention to divert from the thread. At any rate, I don't have the stomach for Taoist Cathechism. Thanks for the direction anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted August 28, 2012 Depending on the depth, it is present in almost all chapters. But for our discussion, the first description is in chapter 8. The greatest good is like water. Water gives life to the Ten Thousand Things, but does not strive. Because it does not strive, it flows in places without preference, depending on the flow and so is like the Dao. Your thoughts? The Female principle: Chapter 2 Bearing, yet not possessing. Working, yet not taking credit, Work is done, then forgotten, therefore it remains eternal. Giving life, the principle job of the female, caring and looking after these young lives requires the female principle in both the male and the female. Most parents not just of humans do this because it is the natural way. It is done and then forgotten, it is part of the natural way. In doing this and in this caring role this work keeps going by the generations to come who do the same thing from the very beginning to the very end of all life. So the wise person takes on this role of the giving female principle through wu wei and compassionate balance. This work is hardly seen or felt but it remains the same work that all wise people undertake for this is like the Dao; empty but full, giving life but not possessing, bearing yet not taking credit for the giving of that life. Many parents make the great mistake of emotionally blackmailing their children by the phrase of something like this;" I gave you your life and did all this for you and now....." This is because they gave but wanted something in return, they didn't follow the way, nor the true female principle of giving and not taking credit, of bearing but not possessing. In some way they thought they owned that child and did not see that child as a manifestation of the Dao in its own right being prepared to carry on the eternal work, once it was old enough to do so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted August 29, 2012 Many parents make the great mistake of emotionally blackmailing their children by the phrase of something like this;" I gave you your life and did all this for you and now....." This is because they gave but wanted something in return, they didn't follow the way, nor the true female principle of giving and not taking credit, of bearing but not possessing. In some way they thought they owned that child and did not see that child as a manifestation of the Dao in its own right being prepared to carry on the eternal work, once it was old enough to do so. Why do you regard "giving without taking" a female principle? Can you define "female" within the context of this topic? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 29, 2012 Pardon the interruption ~ ... Clearly, daoist had different thoughts than the confucians or legalists but they all would probably admit to a natural connection without exclusion since that was fundamental to the world view of all the philosophies. But if a person's awareness is purely a social context or a political context then I think it not really yet looking to the source in the way Lao Zi does. JMO. Agree and worth a thread of it's own (as in why it's not taught from the start). warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted August 29, 2012 Why do you regard "giving without taking" a female principle? Can you define "female" within the context of this topic? I have already Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted August 29, 2012 Let me make a bold statement! The Dao is female/ it is the female principle, but within this there is male principle. So the Dao nourishes life and the male principle fires up the life to take its form according to its environment. From the female came the male, the Dao is female in principle. From nothing came something. Li Erh says it many times. CHAPTER 52 The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 The Dao is female/ Oh, I so much do not like personifying Tao but other than that I agree with you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 Oh, I so much do not like personifying Tao but other than that I agree with you. Personifications are for personal effect... and affect... if you get it, then you needed it... otherwise, you already got it... and didn't need it... and didn't need to post anything anyways.... Let's keep going without interruption... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 I want to say this is an incredible transmission... CHAPTER 52 The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 Wu: female shaman (nu wu) dancing holding feathers wu2 (sealscript) . . .(nice thread, fh, looking forward to your posts!) Flowing Hands... can you speak to the Female Shaman, Wu ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 30, 2012 Personifications are for personal effect... and affect... if you get it, then you needed it... otherwise, you already got it... and didn't need it... and didn't need to post anything anyways.... Let's keep going without interruption... Let's not go too fast or understanding may be lost. Before we introduce "dualistic" concepts to Tau, let's all look at the words following the "mother" sentence... In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. Let's all discuss/think on the separate aspects of silence and void. What could they be/represent? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 30, 2012 ... silence and void. What could they be/represent? At this present time: Silence means keep my mouth shut And Void means keep my mind empty of troublesome thoughts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted August 30, 2012 Let me make a bold statement! The Dao is female/ it is the female principle, but within this there is male principle. So the Dao nourishes life and the male principle fires up the life to take its form according to its environment. From the female came the male, the Dao is female in principle. From nothing came something. Li Erh says it many times. CHAPTER 52 The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one. I see. You are using the idea of Mother Nature as the basis for your female principle. I wonder who coined this term "Mother Nature". Interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 30, 2012 At this present time: Silence means keep my mouth shut And Void means keep my mind empty of troublesome thoughts. And are "heaven and earth" formed in them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
