Five Important Themes of the DDJ

[flowing hands]

I have been waiting for the right moment for this question... and would like to get back to the five themes and how Dao Xin relates to them. Thanks Jeff.

 

"bearing yet not posessing"

"the soft and the yielding"

"water"

"Dwell in the infinite"

"mystery upon mystery"

"unfathomable"

"deep"

"spirit"

"gentle and weak"

"supple"

"heart"

"mercy"

"silence"

"creation"

"formless"

"indefinable"

"great mother of all things"

"Heaven"

"universe"

"Dao"

 

Some female principles and words used in the DDJ. Dao Xin is the ulimate understanding of all the five themes and more, but lets carry on with practicle examples of this.

 

'Bearing yet not posessing'. A female principle. The female gives birth to the next generation, most species, certainly not all nurture them and help them to be able to survive. In humans, although one can see many who don't tend to look after their off-spring, tend to love them and give them their value. When it is time for them to stride out on their own thats when we wish them well in all their endeavours, knowing we have done our best. We can apply this principle to other aspects of our lives. We love but we have the wisdom to see and value the other person/s so that we may help them be what they want to be, even though we may think it is not right. We can love the world or anything else, but we have the knowledge that it must follow its own course. Now we are getting into 'wu wei'. Wu wei is a female principle. And where does wu wei come from......the female shaman......bearing yet not posessing.

[Jeff]

I do not have an issue with describing it as a female principle, but "bearing yet not possessing" would seem to apply to all aspects of life. It could also be said as "acting yet not attached to the outcome". What would you consider the "opposite" or male component of the concept?

 

[dawei]

Ok, past posts mentioned:

 

SELF:

 

The 'self' is the most important theme of the DDJ, it is what limits us in our understanding of the world around us and a huge obstacle to the awakening of realization. Li Erh talks about the self very often and it is referred to multiple times by default. It is the underlying understanding that runs all the way through and it has nothing to do with Buddhism, it has everything to do with realization based on a shamanistic culture of understanding of the world around us. Connecting. 

 

 

We are no better than any other life form, but we use and abuse other life forms like they belong to us to do this. We entrap them, we have no respect for them, they are simply food in a burger, or the object of our testing of chemicals or drugs. We no longer go out and hunt our food, make good use of all its body and give it respect that it deserves. The self no longer understands this fundamental equality of life. So this is understanding the self in relation to the Tao. Relate yourself to life and its course and walk along with it but remembering the fundamental equality and value of life. This is the first understanding. From this we go further. 2 & 3 I will answer later. Remember wu wei is active intent not non action."

"So we start off with the view of equality and value of life, this is sacred. 

 

When one is in a mental state that is at one with everything, one sees with the heart, not with the eyes. One feels the energy and oneness of the world and what connects all things. One cannot see the essence of the Dao but one can feel it through the passage of heart cultivation. The most important words of the DDJ are 'Dao Xin.'
Getting to this state is part of the process of self cultivation. It is a very difficult path that really needs an Immortal to teach properly as it can be dangerous. 

 

FEMALE PRINCIPLE:

 

Yin; black, female, shade, soft, yielding, nurturing, deep, infinite................. add to the list at will! 

Wu: female shaman (nu wu) dancing holding feathers

Taoist magic; female giving birth to life

The grand ultimate: Female, soft overcoming the hard. 

 

The Dao is female/ it is the female principle, but within this there is male principle. So the Dao nourishes life and the male principle fires up the life to take its form according to its environment.

From the female came the male, the Dao is female in principle. From nothing came something. Li Erh says it many times.

 

The female principle is linked to all of the other four. Without real love, a love and understanding for all things one cannot realise true enlightenment. Without altering and understanding the 'self', one cannot realise true love. In finding true spiritual love one must apply the female principle to ones life. All five themes are related but we have not really touched properly on the female principle.

 

When I mean the Dao I don't mean just the 'way'. I mean the path of the heart; 'Dao xin' that leads us to enlightenment and ultimately to Immortality. Dao xin cannot be taught, it is a long journey of many years of practice. Dao xin can be shown or taught by an immortal; they will help you to become enlightened. These things are part of the true understanding of the DDJ which we have not really touched on. I once said on here that the DDJ is a complete works, it can teach anyhting you want to know but it requires complete dedication and understanding. 

 

Some female principles and words used in the DDJ. Dao Xin is the ulimate understanding of all the five themes and more, but lets carry on with practicle examples of this. 

 

'Bearing yet not posessing'. A female principle. The female gives birth to the next generation, most species, certainly not all nurture them and help them to be able to survive.

 

We can love the world or anything else, but we have the knowledge that it must follow its own course. Now we are getting into 'wu wei'. Wu wei is a female principle. And where does wu wei come from......the female shaman......bearing yet not posessing.

 

----

 

While I was previously head-long to move through the five principles, I found the second principle arise within: The female-energy-aspect.  

 

The past posts said: The 'self' is most important and the 'female principle' is the key to link to all the others. 

 

Can we continue this discussion? What more can you say?

[Marblehead]

I find it rather difficult to imagine myself as being that piece of chicken I just ate.

 

When one is in a mental state that is at one with everything, one sees with the heart, not with the eyes.

[dawei]

I'd like to bump and come back to it after re-reading...  thought others would like to see this. 

[flowing hands]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:18 PM, dawei said:

I'd like to bump and come back to it after re-reading...  thought others would like to see this. 

 

This was an excellent thread started by you and we really have not got through it at all, perhaps we can get it going again and if I can find the time, explore with you folks the various aspects; it produces some interesting stuff! 

[dawei]

On 1/6/2019 at 5:35 PM, flowing hands said:

 

This was an excellent thread started by you and we really have not got through it at all, perhaps we can get it going again and if I can find the time, explore with you folks the various aspects; it produces some interesting stuff! 

 

Yes, I do want to get back to it... just pressed for time this month.  I wanted to review all the pages and summarize what was stated and move onward.  

[rideforever]

On 27/11/2015 at 9:51 PM, dawei said:

self

 

This is a Buddhist word, is it mentioned even once in the TTC ? 
Probably not, they use Tao it means something different.
Buddhists shave their head, Taoists do not.

 

On 27/11/2015 at 9:51 PM, dawei said:

fundamental equality of life.

 

Meaning what exactly ?   For the Buddhists it means forcing equality on outcome on everything and being forced to be kissey kissey to everyone and not eat animals ;.... just eat vegetables because they don't mind do they !   

Nonsense, Brussell sprouts do not want to be eaten by vegetarian, hate all vegetarians.

 

For the Taoists equality is means .... 

 

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.
The wise are impartial;
They see the people as straw dogs.

 

Additionally Buddhists want to be the greatest of all martyrs the Bodhisattva who is forced to watch X-Factor for the next million years until Simon Cowell and all sentient monkey beings are free.

For Taoists it is :

Three in ten are followers of life,
Three in ten are followers of death,
And men just passing from birth to 
death also number three in ten.

 

On 27/11/2015 at 9:51 PM, dawei said:

female

 

On 27/11/2015 at 9:51 PM, dawei said:

it can teach anyhting you want to know but it requires complete dedication and understanding. 

 

Clearly you are strongly identified with the Buddhist way of force-Complete-dedication-and-head-shaving which is 180 degree separate from the Taoist way of surrender and and sliding into the bath.

And I mean 180 degrees !

 

On 27/11/2015 at 9:51 PM, dawei said:

heart

 

Here we go, let's get a bit of heart in their and that will smoothe over the complete lack of comprehension of the TTC.

 

Okay okay okay .... I'm really really sorry.   Come on group hug, kissie kissie, yes we are all One, alright alright, yes we are all very very One.  Okay.

 

Do excuse, but is correct, good friends with several Brussell sprouts.

 

Strange how Buddhist everything these days.   Buddhist Taoism, Buddhist Christianism, Buddhist Quantumism, Buddhist Secularism, Buddhist Kebab Shop, Buddhist Sex Position.   Very strange how monkey brain has space for only one word and every few years words changes and spread round like virus.   Who knows what virus goes round in 2020 ?

 

Poor Buddha he just monk who sat under tree. 

Now everyone eat Brussell Sprouts and want to save Simon Cowell. 

Has anything in common ?

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by rideforever

[thelerner]

Not sure you understand Buddhism.  You might want to get gain some clarity by talking to one.  I don't think they'd agree with most of things you've said.  At least not the Buddhists I know.   

 

With such vitriol towards them, I have to wonder if some Buddhists robbed you or beat you up lately and its coming out in your writing.

[rideforever]

Buddhist sit under tree and work.

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by rideforever

[dawei]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

Clearly you are strongly identified with the Buddhist way of force-Complete-dedication-and-head-shaving which is 180 degree separate from the Taoist way of surrender and and sliding into the bath.

 

I know you quoted me but I was quoting another, Flowing Hands, a Daoist Shaman.   He'll have to respond to whether his views and lineage identifies with Buddhism and missed the Tao path.  

[rideforever]

9 hours ago, dawei said:

I know you quoted me but I was quoting another, Flowing Hands, a Daoist Shaman.   He'll have to respond to whether his views and lineage identifies with Buddhism and missed the Tao path.  

 

So he does the analysis, and he does the responses.
What do you do ?
Secretarial work ?

[flowing hands]

21 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

This is a Buddhist word, is it mentioned even once in the TTC ? 
Probably not, they use Tao it means something different.
Buddhists shave their head, Taoists do not.

 

 

Meaning what exactly ?   For the Buddhists it means forcing equality on outcome on everything and being forced to be kissey kissey to everyone and not eat animals ;.... just eat vegetables because they don't mind do they !   

Nonsense, Brussell sprouts do not want to be eaten by vegetarian, hate all vegetarians.

 

For the Taoists equality is means .... 

 

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.
The wise are impartial;
They see the people as straw dogs.

 

Additionally Buddhists want to be the greatest of all martyrs the Bodhisattva who is forced to watch X-Factor for the next million years until Simon Cowell and all sentient monkey beings are free.

For Taoists it is :

Three in ten are followers of life,
Three in ten are followers of death,
And men just passing from birth to 
death also number three in ten.

 

 

 

Clearly you are strongly identified with the Buddhist way of force-Complete-dedication-and-head-shaving which is 180 degree separate from the Taoist way of surrender and and sliding into the bath.

And I mean 180 degrees !

 

 

Here we go, let's get a bit of heart in their and that will smoothe over the complete lack of comprehension of the TTC.

 

Okay okay okay .... I'm really really sorry.   Come on group hug, kissie kissie, yes we are all One, alright alright, yes we are all very very One.  Okay.

 

Do excuse, but is correct, good friends with several Brussell sprouts.

 

Strange how Buddhist everything these days.   Buddhist Taoism, Buddhist Christianism, Buddhist Quantumism, Buddhist Secularism, Buddhist Kebab Shop, Buddhist Sex Position.   Very strange how monkey brain has space for only one word and every few years words changes and spread round like virus.   Who knows what virus goes round in 2020 ?

 

Poor Buddha he just monk who sat under tree. 

Now everyone eat Brussell Sprouts and want to save Simon Cowell. 

Has anything in common ?

 

 

 

Perhaps make your criticism constructive without cynicism? Only a suggestion, you find that you are taken more seriously. 

[rideforever]

32 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

Perhaps make your criticism constructive without cynicism? Only a suggestion, you find that you are taken more seriously.

 

By who ?

Funny thing is, personally I listen to anyone.   

Even guy who punches me in face, in fact especially to that guy.
And I learn.
That is why I eat your analysis so easily, is in the end very wrong understanding.
And of very boring wrongness.
But if only Great Guru Grandmaster only person good enough for you to learn from, then never learn anything.
Because already think are genius, then always be 0.

Edited January 10, 2019 by rideforever

[flowing hands]

36 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

By who ?

Funny thing is, personally I listen to anyone.   

Even guy who punches me in face, in fact especially to that guy.
And I learn.
That is why I eat your analysis so easily, is in the end very wrong understanding.
And of very boring wrongness.
But if only Great Guru Grandmaster only person good enough for you to learn from, then never learn anything.
Because already think are genius, then always be 0.

 

The biggest shame is that you really express very little understanding and yet you spout as though you do and your analysis of the DDJ is so far off, one wonders where you are getting these opinions from?

 

If you can't add anything constructive to the thread and are here just to be a complaining, rude and nonsensical troll, then go somewhere else, you are not adding anything to further understanding.

[rideforever]

8 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

 

Much noise but no reasons, tells simple story;  clear why you know nothing.

 

Analysis is earlier so everyone can see and come to own conclusions.

[dawei]

On 1/10/2019 at 3:28 AM, rideforever said:

 

So he does the analysis, and he does the responses.
What do you do ?
Secretarial work ?

 

I offer my opinion and thought.

[flowing hands]

On 1/10/2019 at 6:45 PM, rideforever said:

 

Much noise but no reasons, tells simple story;  clear why you know nothing.

 

Analysis is earlier so everyone can see and come to own conclusions.

 

It seems to me that what is lacking is the very thing that you are accusing us/me of being. Accusing me of being a Buddhist because I see the greatest obstacle to being 'realized' is the self. Your analysis of a Daoist is beyond recognition. Why? Because clearly you have never bothered to look at your self honestly and recognized what stops you from being a complete human being. Being able to be at one with the Dao in all its facets, knowing 'how to love the world as your own self', knowing how to surrender yourself humbly and only eat Brussell sprouts. Clearly to me you have a long way to go in your personal growth and knowing your self. Of course learning comes from being open to others, stripping away prejudice and cynicism and so begin to understand about the world and others and so understand something about yourself. 

[OldDog]

Hi everyone,

 

Saw this thread awhile back and thought it was pretty much dead ... extict ... bereft of activity. Noticed it active again ... and having interest in the topics, read through the thread. This would appear to be the third revival.  So far, I have heard ...

 

Discussion of self. While I understand there is little use of the term "self" in the received DDJ, I think its fair to say that the self is the target of many of the points in DDJ ... most especially if we are talking about practice. (Lately, my interests have been captured by Daaoist meditative practices and how they take one from thinking about Dao to doing something that informs one's understanding of the world.)

 

Discussion of the feminine. I have to say I have a lot of trouble with this. In a Marbley sort of way I feel like having "feminine" as line of analysis and discussion is sort of unbalance. I feel like we are walking a fine line here. Probably just my own modern western male point of view feeling a bit disenfranchised but I'll get over it as best I can. Buried in the detail of discussion of the feminine context I see a lot thst rings true. But I do have to reject the bold assertion that the Dao is feminine. I have struggled to long to dispell male/female, light/dark, right/wrong images and arrive at an understanding of Dao as undifferentiated potential to want to yeild to the notion of Dao as Feminine. I rather like Dawei's ... I think ... charaterization of Dao as process of potentiation enough to want to stick with that for the time being.

 

So, where does thay leave us. ... or find us ... in this thread. Have we worked these two concepts enough to move on?  Is there enough of an ember of interest for this thread to flame up again?

[flowing hands]

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

Hi everyone,

 

Saw this thread awhile back and thought it was pretty much dead ... extict ... bereft of activity. Noticed it active again ... and having interest in the topics, read through the thread. This would appear to be the third revival.  So far, I have heard ...

 

Discussion of self. While I understand there is little use of the term "self" in the received DDJ, I think its fair to say that the self is the target of many of the points in DDJ ... most especially if we are talking about practice. (Lately, my interests have been captured by Daaoist meditative practices and how they take one from thinking about Dao to doing something that informs one's understanding of the world.)

 

Discussion of the feminine. I have to say I have a lot of trouble with this. In a Marbley sort of way I feel like having "feminine" as line of analysis and discussion is sort of unbalance. I feel like we are walking a fine line here. Probably just my own modern western male point of view feeling a bit disenfranchised but I'll get over it as best I can. Buried in the detail of discussion of the feminine context I see a lot thst rings true. But I do have to reject the bold assertion that the Dao is feminine. I have struggled to long to dispell male/female, light/dark, right/wrong images and arrive at an understanding of Dao as undifferentiated potential to want to yeild to the notion of Dao as Feminine. I rather like Dawei's ... I think ... charaterization of Dao as process of potentiation enough to want to stick with that for the time being.

 

So, where does thay leave us. ... or find us ... in this thread. Have we worked these two concepts enough to move on?  Is there enough of an ember of interest for this thread to flame up again?

 

I think it is very important to throw away ones ideas that the DDJ is only philosophy. We must remember that Li Erh was firstly a Dao cultivator. His understanding of Dao was from personal teachings and experience. So you may not recognise yourself, where in his teachings there are very much references to certain aspects that continue throughout the text, but with his personal teaching I do. The whole verses are about how one (self) perceives the world and the processes that are going on. Time and time again he says to cultivate the Dao through Dao Xin, through the spiritual path, to obtain spiritual power. Like in Xhuang Shi where he talks of the Holyman who uses his spiritual power to make sure the harvests are good and protects animals from sickness. These themes taught by Li Erh are eagerly told and expressed by Xhuang Shi. Li Erh may be succinct in his writings, but true understanding and perception comes form just a few words, which Xhuang Shi expands upon at length. One must remember to get rid of western Christian ideas when reading the DDJ; right/wrong etc. and look at the whole. Male and female are not opposites they are expressions of the Dao and the environment. This expression of the Dao allows many species to continue for an example.

[rene]

Well, I'm gonna buy stock in Brussel sprouts. (-:

[OldDog]

6 hours ago, flowing hands said:

... important to throw away ones ideas that the DDJ is only philosophy.

 

No argument there but it is the door that I came thru. On the other hand I am not all that interested in dao jiao or neidan. I think these are over embellished with a lot of ritual. 

 

6 hours ago, flowing hands said:

One must remember to get rid of western Christian ideas when reading the DDJ;

 

Not sure that is entirely possible. I think whatever traditions one is raised with are deeply embedded. One probably is not conscious of all the ways those traditions affect one. All you can do is be aware they exist and question your assumptions and understandings as you go along.

 

 

[flowing hands]

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

No argument there but it is the door that I came thru. On the other hand I am not all that interested in dao jiao or neidan. I think these are over embellished with a lot of ritual. 

 

 

Not sure that is entirely possible. I think whatever traditions one is raised with are deeply embedded. One probably is not conscious of all the ways those traditions affect one. All you can do is be aware they exist and question your assumptions and understandings as you go along.

 

 

 

Yes its difficult to let go of what one is and what one has become. I think you have the wrong idea about neidan by your description.

[OldDog]

4 hours ago, flowing hands said:

I think you have the wrong idea about neidan by your description.

 

Perhaps. It is something I have wrestled with ... a proper understanding. 

 

If ... as I have ... taken the DDJ as a starting point and move forward in time I see that daoist thought and practice seems to become more complex and adorned with ornamentation and ritual. I feel like it ends up at the same level as Christianity, Buddhism ... very prescribed, very dogmatic, very orthadox. I sense this is the case in dao jiao and neidan.

 

Perhaps I am just not ready for neidan. But I do feel that there is a value in practice as described in Neiye. I see Neiye as the precursor to neidan ... foundational ... without a lot of ornamentation. I don't want to be wrapped up in the orthadoxy in such a way that a distraction to the fundamental goal.

 

Do you think this view misses the point? If so, why?

[flowing hands]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

 

Perhaps. It is something I have wrestled with ... a proper understanding. 

 

If ... as I have ... taken the DDJ as a starting point and move forward in time I see that daoist thought and practice seems to become more complex and adorned with ornamentation and ritual. I feel like it ends up at the same level as Christianity, Buddhism ... very prescribed, very dogmatic, very orthadox. I sense this is the case in dao jiao and neidan.

 

Perhaps I am just not ready for neidan. But I do feel that there is a value in practice as described in Neiye. I see Neiye as the precursor to neidan ... foundational ... without a lot of ornamentation. I don't want to be wrapped up in the orthadoxy in such a way that a distraction to the fundamental goal.

 

Do you think this view misses the point? If so, why?

 

 Neidan does not involve loads of rituals etc etc. True neidan involves quiet inward/outward looking, involves the cultivation of energy and of the self.