Five Important Themes of the DDJ

[yiming]

At this present time:

 

Silence means keep my mouth shut

 

 

This "silence" is the absence of sound.

I was told that there is a silence in which there is sound. Would you buy that?

 

And

 

Void means keep my mind empty of troublesome thoughts.

 

What about those thoughts that are not troublesome? Would they count as contents of your mind?

[dawei]

Let's all discuss/think on the separate aspects of silence and void. What could they be/represent?

To me, they represent that which the manifest is not [yet]; The state of Wu transforming.

[yiming]

Let me make a bold statement!

 

The Dao is female/ it is the female principle, but within this there is male principle. So the Dao nourishes life and the male principle fires up the life to take its form according to its environment.

 

From the female came the male, the Dao is female in principle. From nothing came something. Li Erh says it many times.

 

 

CHAPTER 52

The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe,

the Universe is born from the Dao.

From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists.

It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth.

The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it.

In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery.

Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

 

How come your Chapter 52 is not the same as Gia-Fu Feng's Chapter 52?

[Jeff]

To me, they represent that which the manifest is not [yet]; The state of Wu transforming.

 

The "Tao" is non-dual (no separation, no male/female). The silence and the void define the first aspect of duality (some would call male/female, Shiva/Shatki, etc...). They are also as you said, pre-manifestation, or "above/beyond" the creation (10,000 things).

 

[Jeff]

Sorry, dupe post.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Jeff

[dawei]

How come your Chapter 52 is not the same as Gia-Fu Feng's Chapter 52?

The Flowing Hands Translation is a transmission he received. You can search other threads with his name to get some background. While you can look at the chinese characters or another translation to get some gist of the written characters, the transmission is the chapter message which was conveyed.

Edited August 30, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

The "Tao" is non-dual (no separation, no male/female). The silence and the void define the first aspect of duality (some would call male/female, Shiva/Shatki, etc...). They are also as you said, pre-manifestation, or "above/beyond" the creation (10,000 things).

 

I was going to try and tie them back as the first aspect of matter and non-matter but decided not to go there... but you got me thinking in that direction again. Thanks.

[rene]

The "Tao" is non-dual (no separation, no male/female). The silence and the void define the first aspect of duality (some would call male/female, Shiva/Shatki, etc...). They are also as you said, pre-manifestation, or "above/beyond" the creation (10,000 things).

 

 

Wouldn't the "Tao" be both non-dual and dual? 'Non-dual' in that it is pre-manifest, no separation, no male/female; and 'dual' in that the potential for the arising is also present in the non-dual.

[Riyue]

Wouldn't the "Tao" be both non-dual and dual? 'Non-dual' in that it is pre-manifest, no separation, no male/female; and 'dual' in that the potential for the arising is also present in the non-dual.

Rene

As long we are using the word "dual" - there will be confusion.

The term "polar" matches with the idea of taijitu - bagua - as i think - better.

[rene]

Rene

As long we are using the word "dual" - there will be confusion.

The term "polar" matches with the idea of taijitu - bagua - as i think - better.

 

Riyue, thanks, yes, that is a better word i think.

 

warm regards

 

edit to ask: Is then Tao both pre-manifest and potential-containing? In a 'polar' sort of way?

Edited August 30, 2012 by rene

[Jeff]

Wouldn't the "Tao" be both non-dual and dual? 'Non-dual' in that it is pre-manifest, no separation, no male/female; and 'dual' in that the potential for the arising is also present in the non-dual.

 

Tao is everything. Everything that "arises" is still Tau. Dual (or percieved separation) is a perspective of the mind. But, many find it easier to conceptualize it as "layers" of perception in consciousness.

 

[Jeff]

Rene

As long we are using the word "dual" - there will be confusion.

The term "polar" matches with the idea of taijitu - bagua - as i think - better.

 

Duality can mean different things in different traditions. In Buddhism, "polar" or not good or bad is appropriate. But, it the context described, it means more than one.

 

[Riyue]

Is then Tao both pre-manifest and potential-containing? In a 'polar' sort of way?

Rene

--- i like the formula: yin / yang / one

i think it contains - "pre-manifest and potential"

[Riyue]

"polar" or not good or bad is appropriate.

Jeff

This is not the idea - i am speaking of.

polar in my conception is neither good nor bad - there is no moral valueing.

[Jeff]

I was going to try and tie them back as the first aspect of matter and non-matter but decided not to go there... but you got me thinking in that direction again. Thanks.

 

I think the level of "10,000 things" is better to describe the concept of matter/non-matter. The difference between "heaven and earth" brings in the concept of "polarity" that Rene brought up.

 

[Jeff]

Jeff

This is not the idea - i am speaking of.

polar in my conception is neither good nor bad - there is no moral valueing.

 

Understand completely... That is why I said "not good or bad".

 

[dawei]

I think the level of "10,000 things" is better to describe the concept of matter/non-matter. The difference between "heaven and earth" brings in the concept of "polarity" that Rene brought up.

 

yes, maybe... so I am glad my initial gut was not explore it too far...

[yiming]

The Flowing Hands Translation is a transmission he received. You can search other threads with his name to get some background. While you can look at the chinese characters or another translation to get some gist of the written characters, the transmission is the chapter message which was conveyed.

 

I see. It would be helpful if Flowing Hands made it clear that it was not Chapter 52 (Tao Te Ching).

 

Not everyone who comes to Tao Bums wants to be a part of an initiated gang - a townie - who knows who is who and what is what. Or is that a Tao Bum " be one of us or get out" condition for joining this site?

[Jeff]

I see. It would be helpful if Flowing Hands made it clear that it was not Chapter 52 (Tao Te Ching).

Not everyone who comes to Tao Bums wants to be a part of an initiated gang - a townie - who knows who is who and what is what. Or is that a Tao Bum " be one of us or get out" condition for joining this site?

 

 

This place is the wild west. Pretty much shoot at anything you like...

 

Edited August 31, 2012 by Jeff

[dawei]

I see. It would be helpful if Flowing Hands made it clear that it was not Chapter 52 (Tao Te Ching).

 

Not everyone who comes to Tao Bums wants to be a part of an initiated gang - a townie - who knows who is who and what is what. Or is that a Tao Bum " be one of us or get out" condition for joining this site?

IT IS Chapter 52... if your not seeing it, then stick around... and save your diatribe for another.

 

You can stick to the posts if you want... if you run off and check it against another's translation then that is YOUR doing... you are certainly free and encouraged to do so... but at least understand the entire situation before you talk about townie ideas... I am not sure what you want to prove with such talk but maybe listen more and talk less.

[rene]

I think the level of "10,000 things" is better to describe the concept of matter/non-matter. The difference between "heaven and earth" brings in the concept of "polarity" that Rene brought up.

 

-

 

Actually, my question was upstream a few levels. IYO - does "tao" include non-differentiation and potential? Or to you is the stream more like: Tao > *bang!* > (non-dif + potential) > (polarity + non-dif + potential) > (10,000 things + polarity + non-dif + potential) etc... well okay that was really lame so never mind (unless you can see what I'm asking).

Edited August 31, 2012 by rene

[Marblehead]

Or is that a Tao Bum " be one of us or get out" condition for joining this site?

We like to think of ourselves as free thinkers. There are many different POVs and opinions to be seen here. The reader has the choice of participating in or ignoring any of the threads. See something you don't agree with? Question it. I even question myself now and again.

[Marblehead]

-

 

Actually, my question was upstream a few levels. IYO - does "tao" include non-differentiation and potential? Or to you is the stream more like: Tao > *bang!* > (non-dif + potential) > (polarity-chi? + non-dif + potential) > (10,000 things + polarity + non-dif + potential) etc... well okay that was really lame so never mind (unless you can see what I'm asking).

Hehehe. You damn sure lost me.

[flowing hands]

I see. It would be helpful if Flowing Hands made it clear that it was not Chapter 52 (Tao Te Ching).

 

Not everyone who comes to Tao Bums wants to be a part of an initiated gang - a townie - who knows who is who and what is what. Or is that a Tao Bum " be one of us or get out" condition for joining this site?

 

Come now don't be put off so easily, we are not a gang of any sort!! The DDJ I was given you can download from my site. Once you have it you can make a valued contribution. We may get a bit hot under the collar with each other sometimes, but computers don't bite!!!

[flowing hands]

I shan't have access to a computer for a while so I thought I would add this to enhance the discussion.

 

My understanding, as it was told to me by the Immortal Master, of the creation of the world etc. is as thus.

 

One can't imagine the amount of time that has passed when all that existed was exactly nothing. There was no sound, no dimension, no light, completely nothing.

 

Then for some reason within this there was a small vibration.

 

Over the millions of years this vibration grew stronger and stronger.

 

The vibration began to cause heat

 

For another countless time this began to build, so pressure was created and the act of containment was immense.

 

Finally, the pressure was so immense that it exploded (the big bang)

 

All things came into being

 

This explosion and its effect are still going and turning what was nothing into dimension at the very boundaries of the universes.

 

At some point this initial explosion will run out of energy and the dimensionless etc. will move in back on the dimension-ed universes. But this will not happen for a long time.

 

So we are talking about the Dao and the female principle....over to you folks.