Five Important Themes of the DDJ

[Jeff]

I am glad this steered back on course. If someone wants to question FH's background they can use one of the other existing threads which is meant for that.

 

This issue of the female ending up in subatomic particle discussion is interesting on some level and let's see where it goes but if someone feels this is worthy of a deeper discussion into the 'science of the DDJ' maybe that would be interesting too.

 

Any opinion/position on the topic for the discussion?

 

[Marblehead]

Hey! I have an opinion. (Don't I almost always? Hehehe.) My work for the day is done so now I can concentrate on this thread again.

 

First to Flowing Hands though: If you think we are going too far astray from your opening post please let us know. Within the discussion I am trying to stay true to the Ideas in the opening post.

 

So now to Jeff's post:

 

Hi Marblehead,

 

Thank you for your words. I consider myself more experimental than philosophical, but I would agree with much of what you have said. A few more comments before we move on to the rest of section 42 (unless someone else has a comment)...

 

Any time. I do enjoy talking about this stuff at any level I have enough knowledge from which to talk about it.

 

Would it be fair to say that your concept of mystery would be similar to the concept of pre-creation/unmanifest intent?

 

I am going to treat that question as a trick question. The reason is because I am an Atheist. Being such would negate any consideration of an unmanifest intent, of intent of any nature.

 

In answering your question I need state that I hold to the concept of Tzujan. I have not developed a way of properly explaining this concept so I will say that it is similar to self-becoming. This process of self-becoming applies to everything, even to Tao. It is a process of naturalness.

 

I look into the universe and I see both order and chaos. Order because much of what I see I can apply 'cause and effect' to and therefore understand what is going on. But, there are other aspects that I totally do not understand. This is the chaos I see within the universe.

 

No rhyme or reason according to my ability to apply logic to what is happening. But I can assure you, there are processes at work. What drives these processes? They themselves drive themselves toward there own naturalness.

 

Also, for the reader interested at the level of "mind"... Consider the words again...

 

The Dao begot one,

one gave birth and then there was two.

Two begot three.

And so the Ten Thousand Things were formed.

 

When one declares that something is "good", then that obviously leads to the opposite concept of "bad" (otherwise there could be no good). Then these two concepts lead us to perceived differences. Next thing you know, we form judgements on many thousands of things and have the buddhist concept of duality. Do you think that also fits with the above passage?

 

 

 

Oh Boy!!! More Duality talk. Hehehe. Only something that has the capability of making value judgements will dwell in the realm of Dualities and judge things as good/bad and all the other dualistic variants.

 

We humans and some other species have that ability. I would say that there are reasons why it is so. But let's not go there. Let's just say that it would be bad to jump into an erupting volcano.

 

Understanding dualities help us live our life in a less hazardous manner. Therefore we get to live longer. If we are enjoying life then it would be a given that we would want to extend this enjoyment.

 

Dualities are good as long as we do not apply our judgements of one thing to another or many other things. Yes, I am talking about prejudging and stereotyping. Each of the Ten Thousand Things has its own set of capabilities and capacities. I have eliminated much of my dualistic thinking by instead of judging, applying my "useful/useless to me" concept. That way I can say that a certain 'whatever' is useless to me but it may be useful to someone or something else.

 

Regarding the polarities of Chi (Yin and Yang), both are of equal importance. Feminine as important as masculine. female as important as male.

 

( p.s. Hydrogen and Helium seem hard to start with... Why not protons & electrons (or subatomic particles), you can also extend the male/female principle to them?)

 

The reason is because Science has not yet provided (to me) satisfactory proof of these more minute aspects of the manifest elements. I can understand hydrogen and pure energy. What caused 'whatever' to become hydrogen is not yet understood by me and therefore I cannot speak to it. Would this beg the question of a God particle? Not in my mind. But then, I am an Atheist so that would not even be a consideration for me, would it?

 

Okay, rethinking your last question, yes, I suppose that could be doable. (My mind won't go there right now. Hehehe.)

[dawei]

 

Mystery (potential), the Big Bang. (Never mind the cause.)

 

According to Science this potential was Hydrogen (I like calling it Mystery).

 

One gave birth to Two: Chi (Yin and Yang), Science - Helium (Now we have two, Hydrogen and Helium)

 

So now we have Mystery, Yin and Yang. The Three gave birth to the Manifest, that is, the energy of Chi interacting with potential produced the physical universe.

 

Scientifically, my understanding is that the interaction of Helium and Hydrogen (don't ask me how Hydrogen gave birth to Helium) gave birth to solid particles which resulted in stars being born which resulted in other elements being created.

 

So, to your questions:

 

Yes, Mystery and Manifest are two different states of One. Mystery being potential (perhaps Dark Matter?) and Manifest being the physical universe. Then there is Chi, perhaps Dark Energy?

 

So following this understanding (or misunderstanding) as soon as One gave birth to Two Duality was born. Duality is real, we could not have the physical universe (the Ten Thousand Things) without Duality (this and that). So Duality is not something negative or 'bad', it just is.

 

Ah!, how to properly speak to "Three", or even "Two".

 

One, we can understand. The totality of what is and what is yet to be and what is not all clumped together. No differentiation. Tao in motion? Yeah, The Dynamic Tao.

 

From One we have Two. In my mind it must be Mystery (potential) and Chi (pure energy).

 

From Two we have Three. That would have to be Mystery, Yin and Yang (the duality of Chi).

 

From Three we have the Ten Thousand Things. This would be Yin and Yang acting on Mystery (potential).

 

I may have just confused myself, I hope I didn't confuse anyone else.

What you say makes sense, so I find the explanation clear enough.

 

I would say that your Mystery (potential) is possibly the same that the Huainanzi said in it's cosmology as Tai Zhai (which I translate as a primal Illumination--think big bang).

 

I usually consider the 'three' as Yin-Qi, Yang-Qi and the whole they come from... the bang--primal Illumination. For that reason I also think of this as the forerunner (think previous stage or state or transformation) to what we know as Qi.

[Marblehead]

What you say makes sense, so I find the explanation clear enough.

 

I would say that your Mystery (potential) is possibly the same that the Huainanzi said in it's cosmology as Tai Zhai (which I translate as a primal Illumination--think big bang).

 

I usually consider the 'three' as Yin-Qi, Yang-Qi and the whole they come from... the bang--primal Illumination. For that reason I also think of this as the forerunner (think previous stage or state or transformation) to what we know as Qi.

It's actually interesting that this subject came up because night before last I watched a science program where it was suggested that nothing really "Big" happened and it didn't go "Bang" but rather it was just everything that exists attained such a condensed mass that it had no option other than to expand, and that this condensed massiveness was the universe that existed before this one that was totally (or partially) eaten up by a monster black hole.

 

This was interesting to me because it was the first time I had heard science confirming my Taoist concepts of reversion and cycles of universes (and all things).

[Jeff]

 

Any time. I do enjoy talking about this stuff at any level I have enough knowledge from which to talk about it.

I am going to treat that question as a trick question. The reason is because I am an Atheist. Being such would negate any consideration of an unmanifest intent, of intent of any nature.

In answering your question I need state that I hold to the concept of Tzujan. I have not developed a way of properly explaining this concept so I will say that it is similar to self-becoming. This process of self-becoming applies to everything, even to Tao. It is a process of naturalness.

I look into the universe and I see both order and chaos. Order because much of what I see I can apply 'cause and effect' to and therefore understand what is going on. But, there are other aspects that I totally do not understand. This is the chaos I see within the universe.

No rhyme or reason according to my ability to apply logic to what is happening. But I can assure you, there are processes at work. What drives these processes? They themselves drive themselves toward there own naturalness.

 

So everything is self-becoming independently? No "oneness" of everything (or shared consciousness) in your model/theory? No divine beings or immortals?

 

Oh Boy!!! More Duality talk. Hehehe. Only something that has the capability of making value judgements will dwell in the realm of Dualities and judge things as good/bad and all the other dualistic variants.

We humans and some other species have that ability. I would say that there are reasons why it is so. But let's not go there. Let's just say that it would be bad to jump into an erupting volcano.

Understanding dualities help us live our life in a less hazardous manner. Therefore we get to live longer. If we are enjoying life then it would be a given that we would want to extend this enjoyment.

Dualities are good as long as we do not apply our judgements of one thing to another or many other things. Yes, I am talking about prejudging and stereotyping. Each of the Ten Thousand Things has its own set of capabilities and capacities. I have eliminated much of my dualistic thinking by instead of judging, applying my "useful/useless to me" concept. That way I can say that a certain 'whatever' is useless to me but it may be useful to someone or something else.

 

Sounds like a very healthy attitude.

 

Regarding the polarities of Chi (Yin and Yang), both are of equal importance. Feminine as important as masculine. female as important as male.

 

Agreed on the equal importance. Which leads us into the rest of section 42...

 

The reason is because Science has not yet provided (to me) satisfactory proof of these more minute aspects of the manifest elements. I can understand hydrogen and pure energy. What caused 'whatever' to become hydrogen is not yet understood by me and therefore I cannot speak to it. Would this beg the question of a God particle? Not in my mind. But then, I am an Atheist so that would not even be a consideration for me, would it?

Okay, rethinking your last question, yes, I suppose that could be doable. (My mind won't go there right now. Hehehe.)

 

Finding the Higgs particle/field should create an interesting future discussion...

 

Thanks again.

 

[Marblehead]

So everything is self-becoming independently? No "oneness" of everything (or shared consciousness) in your model/theory? No divine beings or immortals?

 

First question: Yes. But then, this is not contrary to Buddhist DO in that everything is still dependant on other things.

Second: Not in the form used by Buddhism. All from the same source, yes. But everything is special and unique.

Third: That's my Atheism peeking between the curtains. None.

 

Sounds like a very healthy attitude.

 

I try to keep my illusions and delusions to a minimum.

 

Agreed on the equal importance. Which leads us into the rest of section 42...

 

Any time you are ready.

 

Finding the Higgs particle/field should create an interesting future discussion...

 

Thanks again.

 

There was a discussion recently but it was short lived. Now, the Higgs field, of what I understand of it, and that is very little, I do agree with the theory.

 

From what I understand science is suggesting the particle does, I think, is just a lack of understanding of the function of gravity at the quantum level. But then, in this area my ignorance outshines my understanding.

[Jeff]

Thanks. Let us continue...

 

The remainder of SFH's section 42...

 

The Ten Thousand Things each contain Yin and Yang.

They are in harmony by having both of these forces.

 

From this, the forces are divided still;

for the Male has more Yang and the Female has more Yin.

So they are different. By coming together, they beget another life.

So the Ten Thousand Things depend on these forces.

 

When the forces are upset and out of balance,

so the Earth and the Ten Thousand Things will suffer.

Know the balance and all will be well.

 

 

It seems to share our understanding on the need for balance. Any other thoughts from the words?

 

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Jeff,

 

I have no significant problem with this translation beyond which I have with many other translations and that is of the usage of the word "balance".

 

In my mind "balance" indicates a static condition. Life, and the entire universe is not static. It is dynamic - constantly changing.

 

For me "harmony" is a better word as it was used in line 2 above.

 

In my mind as well is the thought that it is through the harmonizing of our energies, our Yin and Yang, that we are able to be more at peace with our inner Self.

 

Conditions in our life are constantly changing, sometimes we need more Yang energy and other times we need more Yin. Bringing the two in harmony will always take us back to our roots (the state of the new-born babe where we have nothing to do - the state of wu wei).

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

I have no significant problem with this translation beyond which I have with many other translations and that is of the usage of the word "balance".

In my mind "balance" indicates a static condition. Life, and the entire universe is not static. It is dynamic - constantly changing.

For me "harmony" is a better word as it was used in line 2 above.

In my mind as well is the thought that it is through the harmonizing of our energies, our Yin and Yang, that we are able to be more at peace with our inner Self.

Conditions in our life are constantly changing, sometimes we need more Yang energy and other times we need more Yin. Bringing the two in harmony will always take us back to our roots (the state of the new-born babe where we have nothing to do - the state of wu wei).

 

Agreed. Harmony is a very good word. But, I do not not have the same static connotations with the word balance.

 

Any other concepts that anyone thinks we are missing from the text?

 

[flowing hands]

Hi Jeff,

 

I have no significant problem with this translation beyond which I have with many other translations and that is of the usage of the word "balance".

 

In my mind "balance" indicates a static condition. Life, and the entire universe is not static. It is dynamic - constantly changing.

 

For me "harmony" is a better word as it was used in line 2 above.

 

In my mind as well is the thought that it is through the harmonizing of our energies, our Yin and Yang, that we are able to be more at peace with our inner Self.

 

Conditions in our life are constantly changing, sometimes we need more Yang energy and other times we need more Yin. Bringing the two in harmony will always take us back to our roots (the state of the new-born babe where we have nothing to do - the state of wu wei).

 

Although I agree with most of what you are saying here, I think Li Erh was refering to, a bit like TCM, the process of wholeness and well being, which means finding balance between yin and yang, the five elements, the conditions of heat, cold etc. etc. For example life was formed with certain environmental conditions which are dependant on elements being in balance with each other. So balance is about leveling out the way things are and work well together and independantly.

 

The new born babe is about becoming this state, not necessariyl wu wei, for wu wei is a intellectual understanding and a desicion not to take action. But a new born babe enters the world completely empty, they have no realisation, only evolutionary instincts. They are in effect untainted.

[dawei]

Although I agree with most of what you are saying here, I think Li Erh was refering to, a bit like TCM, the process of wholeness and well being, which means finding balance between yin and yang, the five elements, the conditions of heat, cold etc. etc. For example life was formed with certain environmental conditions which are dependant on elements being in balance with each other. So balance is about leveling out the way things are and work well together and independantly.

 

The new born babe is about becoming this state, not necessariyl wu wei, for wu wei is a intellectual understanding and a desicion not to take action. But a new born babe enters the world completely empty, they have no realisation, only evolutionary instincts. They are in effect untainted.

This was exactly how I wanted to comment... Balance is really BALANCING... Leveling...

 

If we hold as our base the idea of the 'transformation of states' then we are always in the act of some change. I also like to use the idea of the 'sum of the forces'; an earthquake is responding to the sum of the forces deep within the earth and in order to balance the larger system (of forces), it gives way and then we get over the shock...

 

'Becoming' is an interesting topic even among buddhism and existentialism...

Edited October 13, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

The new born babe is about becoming this state, not necessariyl wu wei, for wu wei is a intellectual understanding and a desicion not to take action. But a new born babe enters the world completely empty, they have no realisation, only evolutionary instincts. They are in effect untainted.

Can you expound on this?

 

I can see the end/start of a cycle (or recycle) with your comments; the new born babe is the result and product at one end of a cycle and then a new cycle starts (of life and it's impurities).

 

A new born is the picture of wu wei prior to any intellectual understanding... it is one with it (if I may say it this way)... ergo, why all the intellectual understanding [pomp and circumstance in discussions] for something we once had without question?

 

It seems to me the more we question and debate and define it the more we simply admit (unconsciously perhaps) we are from it's original unity?

[Marblehead]

Although I agree with most of what you are saying here, I think ...

Yes, nice additions to what I said. I can go only so far with what I can say and still be true to myself and my beliefs.

[Marblehead]

'Becoming' is an interesting topic even among buddhism and existentialism...

Agree. I have, in the past, used the term "self-actualization" to this concept.

[flowing hands]

Can you expound on this?

 

I can see the end/start of a cycle (or recycle) with your comments; the new born babe is the result and product at one end of a cycle and then a new cycle starts (of life and it's impurities).

 

A new born is the picture of wu wei prior to any intellectual understanding... it is one with it (if I may say it this way)... ergo, why all the intellectual understanding [pomp and circumstance in discussions] for something we once had without question?

 

It seems to me the more we question and debate and define it the more we simply admit (unconsciously perhaps) we are from it's original unity?

 

Wu wei is a product of wisdom and cultivation, of realisation. But it is more than the simple 'blankness' of a new born babe. For in wisdom we take no action at certain times because we see the wisdom of our non interference being better in the whole picture or in the long run. A new born babe takes no action because it cannot, it is what it is, but the beauty of the new born babe is that it is not full of stuff. So in cultivation and self realisation we have to get rid of all this stuff until we are like a new born babe. Empty but full of the Dao. Simple. I don't mean its simple to do, I mean simplifying our Natures. When I mean the Dao I don't mean just the 'way'. I mean the path of the heart; 'Dao xin' that leads us to enlightenment and ultimately to Immortality. Dao xin cannot be taught, it is a long journey of many years of practice. Dao xin can be shown or taught by an immortal; they will help you to become enlightened. These things are part of the true understanding of the DDJ which we have not really touched on. I once said on here that the DDJ is a complete works, it can teach anyhting you want to know but it requires complete dedication and understanding.

[Jeff]

Wu wei is a product of wisdom and cultivation, of realisation. But it is more than the simple 'blankness' of a new born babe. For in wisdom we take no action at certain times because we see the wisdom of our non interference being better in the whole picture or in the long run. A new born babe takes no action because it cannot, it is what it is, but the beauty of the new born babe is that it is not full of stuff. So in cultivation and self realisation we have to get rid of all this stuff until we are like a new born babe. Empty but full of the Dao. Simple. I don't mean its simple to do, I mean simplifying our Natures. When I mean the Dao I don't mean just the 'way'. I mean the path of the heart; 'Dao xin' that leads us to enlightenment and ultimately to Immortality. Dao xin cannot be taught, it is a long journey of many years of practice. Dao xin can be shown or taught by an immortal; they will help you to become enlightened. These things are part of the true understanding of the DDJ which we have not really touched on. I once said on here that the DDJ is a complete works, it can teach anyhting you want to know but it requires complete dedication and understanding.

 

I would be interested in hearing more (and discussing) about your "path of the heart". Does it also relate to the female principle in the TTC?

 

[dawei]

Wu wei is a product of wisdom and cultivation, of realisation. But it is more than the simple 'blankness' of a new born babe. For in wisdom we take no action at certain times because we see the wisdom of our non interference being better in the whole picture or in the long run. A new born babe takes no action because it cannot, it is what it is, but the beauty of the new born babe is that it is not full of stuff. So in cultivation and self realisation we have to get rid of all this stuff until we are like a new born babe. Empty but full of the Dao. Simple. I don't mean its simple to do, I mean simplifying our Natures. When I mean the Dao I don't mean just the 'way'. I mean the path of the heart; 'Dao xin' that leads us to enlightenment and ultimately to Immortality. Dao xin cannot be taught, it is a long journey of many years of practice. Dao xin can be shown or taught by an immortal; they will help you to become enlightened. These things are part of the true understanding of the DDJ which we have not really touched on. I once said on here that the DDJ is a complete works, it can teach anyhting you want to know but it requires complete dedication and understanding.

There is so much here worth discussing and I appreciate your comments.

 

What I personally ponder is how much we need to make excuses for our human existence... It seems among the ten thousand, the human is elevated as highest in the food chain; yet they are the only ones among the ten thousand which needs to 'cultivate'... they are the only one's who have 'lost' some original connection or need to re-connect or re-establish... this would seem to put them at the bottom, IMO. When one brings in the idea that it is humans who are destroying this earth with a single-hand, we simply are not capable on some level. Humans are a destroying virus (as one famous movie said).

 

Your comments on Dao Xin which I studied in Medical Qigong which I think is one of the highest discussions one should have... but the average person won't care about this. Only those who have a destiny to this will.

[GrandmasterP]

Hi Jeff,

 

I have no significant problem with this translation beyond which I have with many other translations and that is of the usage of the word "balance".

 

In my mind "balance" indicates a static condition. Life, and the entire universe is not static. It is dynamic - constantly changing.

 

For me "harmony" is a better word as it was used in line 2 above.

 

In my mind as well is the thought that it is through the harmonizing of our energies, our Yin and Yang, that we are able to be more at peace with our inner Self.

 

Conditions in our life are constantly changing, sometimes we need more Yang energy and other times we need more Yin. Bringing the two in harmony will always take us back to our roots (the state of the new-born babe where we have nothing to do - the state of wu wei).

Hi Jeff,

 

I have no significant problem with this translation beyond which I have with many other translations and that is of the usage of the word "balance".

 

In my mind "balance" indicates a static condition. Life, and the entire universe is not static. It is dynamic - constantly changing.

 

For me "harmony" is a better word as it was used in line 2 above.

 

In my mind as well is the thought that it is through the harmonizing of our energies, our Yin and Yang, that we are able to be more at peace with our inner Self.

 

Conditions in our life are constantly changing, sometimes we need more Yang energy and other times we need more Yin. Bringing the two in harmony will always take us back to our roots (the state of the new-born babe where we have nothing to do - the state of wu wei).

 

.......................................

How about 'balance' as a flux state as in cultivation where balance and rootedness fluctuates between one foot then another along with 'core'?

[Marblehead]

.......................................

How about 'balance' as a flux state as in cultivation where balance and rootedness fluctuates between one foot then another along with 'core'?

 

Yes, balance has its place in our life, I grant you that. As you suggested, moving from one foot to the other balance must be maintained during the transition. I think this would be true also whenever we change our lifestyle or our path through life. We need to maintain our balance during these transitions else we fall and get hurt. This balance can also help when we are moving away from one extreme lifestyle to something else as it will help us from just moving from one extreme to another.

 

But then, back to harmony.

[GrandmasterP]

Yep it's a much better metaphor really MH as in harmony within an orchestra, one or two instruments may be dissonant of necessity in some musical phrases but the overall effective sound produced by the 'whole is harmonious.

I withdraw 'balance as flux'.

I'm never too comfortable in TTC 'catechisms' anyhoo. There are so many translations of TTC it's such an ambiguous text, even those who can read it in the original pictograms (I can't) differ as to 'interpretation'.

As a ground for debate fair enough but possibly we'd need to agree a common text (not as 'better' but simply as 'common'), for more fruitful debate or maybe I have missed something and you are all using a set text..

'We win more when we're all singing off the same hymn sheet'

as my old trade union 'shop steward' mentor used to say.

[Marblehead]

Yep it's a much better metaphor really MH as in harmony within an orchestra, one or two instruments may be dissonant of necessity in some musical phrases but the overall effective sound produced by the 'whole is harmonious.

I withdraw 'balance as flux'.

I'm never too comfortable in TTC 'catechisms' anyhoo. There are so many translations of TTC it's such an ambiguous text, even those who can read it in the original pictograms (I can't) differ as to 'interpretation'.

As a ground for debate fair enough but possibly we'd need to agree a common text (not as 'better' but simply as 'common'), for more fruitful debate or maybe I have missed something and you are all using a set text..

'We win more when we're all singing off the same hymn sheet'

as my old trade union 'shop steward' mentor used to say.

Yeah. Not to negate "flux" from being a concept in Taoism though. Just that it is different from the concepts of balance and harmony.

 

And true regarding translations and understandings, when we did the Chapters of the TTC we used three different translations all the way through and then we had translations from other sources as well in the hope of allowing understanding for the greatest number of people.

 

And I will also agree that the Way of Tao is for living, not for discussing. However, I think we need discuss it so that we might have the most correct understanding possible so that we do not go astray of the Way of Tao.

 

But then, if we hadn't gotten all screwed up in the first place we wouldn't need to be making all these adjustments to our understandings and our way of life. Hehehe.

[GrandmasterP]

Well it is an interesting subject anyway and makes a nice change from discussing the weather and soccer which, apart from work gripes; are main topics at work. Which is your favourite version of TTC MH?

[Marblehead]

Which is your favourite version of TTC MH?

I prefer Robert Henricks' translation although reading Lin Yutang's is more fun.

[dawei]

I would be interested in hearing more (and discussing) about your "path of the heart". Does it also relate to the female principle in the TTC?

I have been waiting for the right moment for this question... and would like to get back to the five themes and how Dao Xin relates to them. Thanks Jeff.

Edited October 18, 2012 by dawei

[GrandmasterP]

Addiss and Lombardo here for no other reason than it's the most thumbed copy being to hand.

It has to be preference, every translation being to some extent a re-imagining more so one from ideographic-pictograms into phonemes.

TTC pictograms into Hebrew characters into English could be interesting. Sure to have been done.

Anyone know of such an edition?