Lower Dan Tian Heat (GFM Vs. Embryonic Breathing)

[snbeings]

As far as the lower Dan Tian. Right now I'm on a 100 day Gong Golden flower meditation, with lots of fasting and all sexual energy and release witheld. Well a few days ago I hit day 19 and there was like a switch that flipped on in the lower dan tian and it was very hot and stilled the mind. SO since then when I sit with this daily, I kind of switch the lower dan tian off/on and feel all this heat and electricity that envelops my body and it all starts from that location.

 

So I jumped on the old google and started doing some research on this phenomenon and started finding references to Embryonic breathing.

 

Yet, I'm basically going by wilhelms golden flower book and 2 of jj semple's books on the subject (which I jumped back in to find any early references to early heat based in the dan tian and didnt find any)

 

I think embryonic breathing and golden flower are very similar in nature.

 

However I have a question here, since I started doing some studying into the whole embryonic breathing deal. They talk about heat being generated in the false lower dan tian, and that it is just surface level and then say that the real lower dan tian is much deeper in, inside the navel and that this is where the heat needs to be generated.

 

How do you tell the difference?

 

I think when jj eventually felt the direction of breath, it was because he shifted into the real lower dan tian, however I find no mention of the initial heat aspect of what im getting going on day 19 (which was like a week ago)

[thelerner]

I've listened to some of JJ Semples podcasts, they're very interesting. Which of his books do you have? And what do you think of them.

 

Thanks

 

Michael

 

also congrads on your discipline and progress.

[snbeings]

I've listened to some of JJ Semples podcasts, they're very interesting. Which of his books do you have? And what do you think of them.

 

Thanks

 

Michael

 

also congrads on your discipline and progress.

i have the "one secret at a time" and "backward flowing method". the books are cool, entertaining, although many would consider alot of it to be filler. It's more like a bio w/ all the adventures along the way. I was looking for some real deep technical stuff (which I got just by googling embryonic breathing and researching the lower dan tian). Overall I would recommend the books just to have to the library.

 

I've since realized a theory that what happened to JJ was that he was mostly focused on chi, sensitivity to it, and the false dan tian, and then eventually 100 days in a shift happened into the real lower dan tian which everyone already speaks about is as already having a spin or circulation to it. So basically once that's felt, you reverse the direction of that spin, and the rest is history. Kundalini eventually takes place.

 

Although jj kind of stops an kundalini awakening and that's it. Where as I've seen way too many things in the inner life to say that it ends with kundalini. I think all the channels need to be opened, stillness cultivated, the source of thought ground realized, and a few other things hat are comparable to various sources of esotericism and qi gong manuals

[ChiDragon]

I know there are upper, middle, and lower dan tien but never heard of false or real lower dan tien.

[Trunk]

So much to unpack in your original post.

 

Sorry, mostly ?s.

 

What, in your view, is embryonic breathing?

 

.. I'll stop there, because it's the most important ?, imo.

[joeblast]

However I have a question here, since I started doing some studying into the whole embryonic breathing deal. They talk about heat being generated in the false lower dan tian, and that it is just surface level and then say that the real lower dan tian is much deeper in, inside the navel and that this is where the heat needs to be generated.

 

How do you tell the difference?

 

False vs real are simply two different locations. The "False" (Qihai, cv6) is labeled such because since it is relatively external and "on the stomach musculotendonal structure" therefore it has no real ability to store charge like the "real" dantien does. The location of the real is behind cv6 from front to back in proportion of 3 to 7, but is generally a "central" location. Being in the middle of the gut, it has capacity to store charge.

 

Focusing on the false will help motivate qi but it is not the same motivation you get from focusing on the real location. The real location is something you can meditate on, abide in...get the muscle memory of the motions built up then you can just sit there and have the awareness watch...and shine with...the motions. It will more readily flow through to core from there, whereas the qihai is a...I'd almost say a more martial application.

[Trunk]

My impression is that joeblast is much further along w/ breath work than I. One impression that I have, that might be useful, is that the umbilicus has a natural connection all the way through to ming men (between the kidneys). That if that relationship gets catalyzed through whatever method, that something deep occurs that has to do with the original path of the umbilicus, imho. That's the path that originally poured in foundational nourishment.

 

[snbeings]

False vs real are simply two different locations. The "False" (Qihai, cv6) is labeled such because since it is relatively external and "on the stomach musculotendonal structure" therefore it has no real ability to store charge like the "real" dantien does. The location of the real is behind cv6 from front to back in proportion of 3 to 7, but is generally a "central" location. Being in the middle of the gut, it has capacity to store charge.

 

Focusing on the false will help motivate qi but it is not the same motivation you get from focusing on the real location. The real location is something you can meditate on, abide in...get the muscle memory of the motions built up then you can just sit there and have the awareness watch...and shine with...the motions. It will more readily flow through to core from there, whereas the qihai is a...I'd almost say a more martial application.

is it possible that moxi and/or acupuncture on a certain point will help to open this up?

 

By the way thanks for the reply

[dawei]

I know there are upper, middle, and lower dan tien but never heard of false or real lower dan tien.

Your not reading enough books... where is your book-wisdom now???

 

---

 

Let's stick to the thread. As JB says, where you focus is going to alter the experience. But I will add that by causing a stir in questioning, researching the web, and asking questions... you have altered the Qi already in a direction that is not meant to be.

 

The moral of the story is: If you start on 100 days, don't question until the 100 days is over; otherwise, your not focusing on the 100 days.

 

In reality... there is no magic to 100 days. If you do it twice a day, you will do 50 days; if you do it 3x a day, then it is 33 days. This was never originally 100 days. Only modern teaching has it this way... but in extending out the days, there is more pressure to focus a longer time.

[joeblast]

My impression is that joeblast is much further along w/ breath work than I. One impression that I have, that might be useful, is that the umbilicus has a natural connection all the way through to ming men (between the kidneys). That if that relationship gets catalyzed through whatever method, that something deep occurs that has to do with the original path of the umbilicus, imho. That's the path that originally poured in foundational nourishment.

 

Ok, dont boost my ego too much

 

Correct on the connection - ming men connects just above qihai at cv7 Yinjiao ("Yin intersection") where the conception and penetrating vessels meet the kidney channel. Coincidentally this is the path the "small small" circulation mini-mco follows; instead of continuing up the back like the larger, it'splits' and the Yi directs to the front where as it passes qihai it is in a downward flowing action. IMHO once embryonic breathing is a solidly established foundation, the mini MCO is the next logical step...(although I am partial to the 3dantiens version that will be my next topic once my present topic is finished )

 

 

is it possible that moxi and/or acupuncture on a certain point will help to open this up?

 

By the way thanks for the reply

Honestly the best way to do this is to continue practicing. A good teacher of mine once told me that everything you need you have inside you, you dont necessarily need external props even though at times they may help you. Then again, qihai is an important point that has very potent action on qi and yang ("activates and mobilizes the pre-heaven qi stored in the kidneys" from deadman's manual.) It sounds like you are making good progress - dont get greedy and try to accelerate processes too quickly, though. Cultivate a sincere enjoyment of what you are doing and that will have a very powerful (even if amorphous) action on the practices you are doing. I am glad I can be of help /\

[Jetsun]

[ChiDragon]

Your not reading enough books... where is your book-wisdom now???

 

If one is reading the wrong books and led by a blind, then there was no book-wisdom....

[joeblast]

If one is reading the wrong books and led by a blind, then there was no book-wisdom....

Humility comes when one knows one doesnt know everything

 

 

Edited July 8, 2012 by joeblast

[idquest]

[joeblast]

At first, I read "movement" as "moment," and resonated with it.

 

So, what are their instructions to "cultivate that movement?"

+100 on the anapana chi conversations. Anything you find from master nan is extremely valuable. Yes, cultivate the movement - when the breath disappears, the movement is still there, but a great many things get disconnected and fade away while you're on your way there. And yeah, in a way, its "the moment" because it winds up being one great big long moment - but very fundamental is the movement, it is a significant part of "that which produces phenomena." (ya know, the 'scenery' you're not supposed to pay too much attention to )

 

deep into EB practice - there literally is just that fetal abdomen 'breath,' its...just about one of the last things to disappear. its back there you start to understand the difference between breathing and respiration. attenuate the cranial nerves and eventually the resultant resonances elsewhere in the brain cease also.

Edited July 8, 2012 by joeblast

[joeblast]

Fascinating quote.

 

There is such thing as pulsing. The pulsing occurs not necessarily with the rythm of breath and is different from breath and heart beat. B. Frantzis distinguishes pulsing as a separate neigong component. Do you think Nan Huai-Chin meant something like pulsing here?

I dont think he necessarily meant that here, that appears to be another phenomena, going by my own experience and also having purchased the anapana chi conversations and read 'em a bunch of times. Here is just the very stripped down to bare essentials embryonic breath-motion...it doesnt necessarily feel like it is connected to breath, or breathing, really, although back there you do get some vague sense that it is respiration, but again...there respiration begins to take on an entirely new meaning; prior it seems more logical to make it close to congruent with breathing, but further back, it goes from a similarity to a correlation at best.

[Jetsun]

At first, I read "movement" as "moment," and resonated with it.

 

So, what are their instructions to "cultivate that movement?"

 

The context of the quote is that Peter Senge is talking about a moment in his Anapa meditation when his breathing appeared to completely stop, Master Nan suggests that stilling the mind and noticing the gaps inbetween the breath can help bring this about.

 

During a sitting meditation if one can fill his lower body and then the four limbs with Qi, followed by the cessation of breathing in the nose, one will then experience the state of Xi.

 

To be aware of the Xi is to be aware of the interval during which one neither inhales nor exhales. In the beginning, the interval, or the Xi, is brief. With correct practice, the duration will gradually extend and the mind will settle down as well. When the mind arises in tandem with the Xi, you will feel the Qi, that energy, all over your body.

 

Samadhi is attained only through the union of the mind and Xi

[Bubbles]

False vs real are simply two different locations. The "False" (Qihai, cv6) is labeled such because since it is relatively external and "on the stomach musculotendonal structure" therefore it has no real ability to store charge like the "real" dantien does. The location of the real is behind cv6 from front to back in proportion of 3 to 7, but is generally a "central" location. Being in the middle of the gut, it has capacity to store charge.

 

Focusing on the false will help motivate qi but it is not the same motivation you get from focusing on the real location. The real location is something you can meditate on, abide in...get the muscle memory of the motions built up then you can just sit there and have the awareness watch...and shine with...the motions. It will more readily flow through to core from there, whereas the qihai is a...I'd almost say a more martial application.

 

May I had to what joeblast said that apart from reading the right books, real dantian location can be experienced without doubt for eg through consistent daily zhan zhuang practice?

Edited July 8, 2012 by bubbles

[joeblast]

The context of the quote is that Peter Senge is talking about a moment in his Anapa meditation when his breathing appeared to completely stop, Master Nan suggests that stilling the mind and noticing the gaps inbetween the breath can help bring this about.

 

During a sitting meditation if one can fill his lower body and then the four limbs with Qi, followed by the cessation of breathing in the nose, one will then experience the state of Xi.

 

To be aware of the Xi is to be aware of the interval during which one neither inhales nor exhales. In the beginning, the interval, or the Xi, is brief. With correct practice, the duration will gradually extend and the mind will settle down as well. When the mind arises in tandem with the Xi, you will feel the Qi, that energy, all over your body.

 

Samadhi is attained only through the union of the mind and Xi

...and after 'noticing the gaps,' then smooth the transitions between inhale and exhale until one rolls seamlessly into the other, the two become one, which keeps a rollin' sure you can 'extend the gaps' but the gaps themselves are unsustainable (some longer than others of course)...so when returning to 'utter and complete stillness' the flow of air becomes soft enough so that it drops below the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways, the nerves no longer detect the air ambling by. me I think...why gap, gapping is accidental, unless you are purposefully doing a breath hold practice or variant. of course our minds wander and produce gaps, but imho it doesnt make sense to search for them. Union of mind and Xi happens via awareness, not gapping

[joeblast]

May I had to what joeblast said that apart from reading the right books, real dantian location can be experienced without doubt for eg through consistent daily zhan zhuang practice?

treat the standing as the breath practice that it is, sure

[Trunk]

For many of us, me included, there's long term major work to open up the tissues of the whole abdominal region. I mean working towards fluency in basic substance, tissue, level. Often there is major work, gradually over years. ... before the tissue is free enough so that the more subtle breath work and really integrate w/ the physicality of the region. (wordy much?)

 

Some things that've helped me in the area:

psoas work: David Berceli's dvd or Chia's Tao Yin

weird stomach tricks:

- Tao Semko's dvd on nauli kriya

- things similar to belly dancing's "belly rolls"

Eric's blog on "Unwinding the Belly" is inspiring.

[adept]

Interesting thread.

I started over a month ago with GFM after re-reading JJ Semple's book and listening to his podcasts.

I sit in full lotus each morning and also practice the walking meditation as JJ describes in his books and his podcasts (which are great by the way !).

I've got the deep diaphragmatic breathing part pretty much sorted now and I can no longer hear the breath, either on inhalation, or exhalation.

I'm not really counting the days as the 100 days is just a rough estimate, it may take shorter or longer until the practice is deeply ingrained, and the next phase (detecting, and then reversing the flow) begins.

 

Hope everyone's doing fine.

It's good to be back on the forum after a few months away.

[Disabled Not Broken]

 

Edited July 15, 2012 by Disabled Not Broken

[joeblast]

that drawing looks a bit squashed in the axial plane

[Disabled Not Broken]

that drawing looks a bit squashed in the axial plane

too much liposuction? lol