Is violence justified

[Aaron]

I wondered, since taoists are (monastically speaking) a notorious bunch of martial artists.

 

I think the important thing is, did you lose control? Did you emotions get the best of you? Or was it an act of will, carried out in a state of equanimity? or something in between.

 

I personally see losing control in a violent way as pretty poor behavior, but sometimes, as seth and others mention, people need a beating, especially if its administered with an intentin that is for their own benefit.

 

I think control is a loaded word. If this is coming back towards me as a review of my actions, I'm more than willing to stand up for the decision I made. I didn't strike in anger, the last straw was drawn and I decided I had to react, otherwise what do I next time, continue to threaten and not react? I did what I felt was the right thing to do and maybe it wasn't the right thing to do. What happens now happens and I'm responsible for my part in it, but I'm also willing to accept that part. I wont go around work bragging or even talking about it, it will die in that moment and the only way it will be resurrected is if the other person decides to say something.

 

I have a clear conscience. But again, it's not important whether what I did was right or wrong, but what the eventual outcome is. I try very hard to be as compassionate as I can be. I get agitated by people sometimes, but I try very hard not to let my agitation cause me to harm others needlessly. I'm not perfect, I will make mistakes and cause harm to others, maybe not physically but emotionally. The important thing for me is to try to do what I feel is right and know is right.

 

With that in mind the Tao Teh Ching has some clear guidelines for how we should behave, I'm trying very hard to follow those guidelines. I think sometimes we think that we should strive to be the perfect person, the sage, but we should know by now that Lao Tzu was talking about the ideal, not the reality. The reality isn't that we always succeed, but that we try very hard to succeed.

 

Aaron

Edited July 10, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

I wanted to thank everyone who was supportive of what happened. I had hoped that we might talk more about violence and how it effects us and what we need to do about it. As many know a year ago I was a resolute pacifist and it was easy to be a pacifist because I didn't have anyone who challenged it. In the last few months I've had those ideas challenged. I got into a shouting match in April because I yelled at a woman who threatened to punch a little boy who was walking with her. A bit before that I got into a confrontation with a group of kids who were destroying the neighbor's garbage cans. What I realize is that I'm not as passive as I thought I was, but what provokes me to anger the quickest isn't those things that cause me harm, I can take abuse for quite awhile before I react, rather it's those things causing others harm that irritate me the most. I'm sure if this kid was bullying someone else at work I would've stepped up immediately and said something, but because it was me I didn't feel the need, it was only after I felt it had gone beyond the point that I needed to suffer anymore that I decided to warn him, then react when he failed to heed my warning.

 

Diminish our desires. What does this mean when it comes to being bullied and picked on? What do you think someone should do and why? That's what I wanted to hear about and I hope other will share.

 

Aaron

Edited July 10, 2012 by Twinner

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It sounds like you also gave him exactly what he was literally asking for, on top of everything else. It's not like you tried to injure him afterwards. He wants to know what boxing's like - this is what boxing's like: You get punched in the face. Fun hey?

 

 

If only Enlightenment was so easy to demonstrate and learn...

[z00se]

I think control is a loaded word. If this is coming back towards me as a review of my actions, I'm more than willing to stand up for the decision I made. I didn't strike in anger, the last straw was drawn and I decided I had to react, otherwise what do I next time, continue to threaten and not react? I did what I felt was the right thing to do and maybe it wasn't the right thing to do. What happens now happens and I'm responsible for my part in it, but I'm also willing to accept that part. I wont go around work bragging or even talking about it, it will die in that moment and the only way it will be resurrected is if the other person decides to say something.

 

I have a clear conscience. But again, it's not important whether what I did was right or wrong, but what the eventual outcome is. I try very hard to be as compassionate as I can be. I get agitated by people sometimes, but I try very hard not to let my agitation cause me to harm others needlessly. I'm not perfect, I will make mistakes and cause harm to others, maybe not physically but emotionally. The important thing for me is to try to do what I feel is right and know is right.

 

With that in mind the Tao Teh Ching has some clear guidelines for how we should behave, I'm trying very hard to follow those guidelines. I think sometimes we think that we should strive to be the perfect person, the sage, but we should know by now that Lao Tzu was talking about the ideal, not the reality. The reality isn't that we always succeed, but that we try very hard to succeed.

 

Aaron

 

I think this is a good topic because nearly everyone has come across this type of situation one way or another.

 

I think your reaction to the situation was perfect. You warned, he continued, you acted with force but not too much, yet enough to let him know you mean what you say. I mean you got a big bruise on your arm you can't just keep taking that. He obviously respected that as he called you up soon after to make sure there were no hard feelings between yaz. Infact he probably respects you and looks up to you alot more now than he did before.

 

You can look at tao teh ching for answers but you can also look at the tao directly. Nature it's self is a manifestation of the tao. I know several people with dogs, and if they have 1 old one and one young one, the young one is always annoying and teasing the older one, just trying to get it to snap or something. Then finally it does and the young one backs off for a little while. I've seen the same thing with tigers in documentries. I had a younger brother and it was the same thing with him. It's natural and normal.

 

The way you handled the situation is the way others should strive to act. Whats more you said you have a clear conscious so you know deep down that you acted justly and ethically.

 

I think sometimes we think that we should strive to be the perfect person, the sage, but we should know by now that Lao Tzu was talking about the ideal, not the reality. The reality isn't that we always succeed, but that we try very hard to succeed.

 

But you did act perfectly, as a sage, and the result was perfect. Now you won't feel threated and the old threat treats you with respect. Only good has resulted for everybody. Further, you realise that you could have stopped the situation comming to the point that it did by reacting to the old threat earlier, so you have become even more wise. But at the point it was, you acted the way you should have.

 

I can take abuse for quite awhile before I react, rather it's those things causing others harm that irritate me the most. I'm sure if this kid was bullying someone else at work I would've stepped up immediately

 

Nobody did this for you and see how well it ended up for you. I think it's a matter of not letting your emotions get in the way and seeing when they really do need help or when you can help them more by letting them to learn to take care of it for themselves. Realising that there are good and bad times for addressing issues. I don't think i would have said anything to the adult walking with the child though, i feel saying something would be worse for all involved than not saying anything at all.

 

Diminish our desires. What does this mean when it comes to being bullied and picked on? What do you think someone should do and why? That's what I wanted to hear about and I hope other will share.

 

I think what you did was a perfect example of what i would do. No need to say why, you did it so you know

Diminish our desires... Depends how far you want to go with it. I think a main goal of cultivation and one of the main benefits of enlightenment would be the realisation that you have a choice. Do you want to choose not to care if you were injured or not? Do you want to choose to let the bully beat you blind maybe? Do you want to die on a cross?

 

I think sometimes we think that we should strive to be the perfect person, the sage, but we should know by now that Lao Tzu was talking about the ideal, not the reality.

 

I put this quote in again on purpose because i think when you say "but we should know by now" that you really mean "but i should know by now" because probably time and time again you've came into this realisation on your own. My opinion is that what you are talking about is the difference between what you 'think' is perfect and what 'is' perfect. You said you have a no regrets about what you did so you felt perfect. It was perfect. Now when you start trying to think about it you're not sure if it was perfect or not. Worry, undecidedness and and tension started to develop. In my opinion the perfection became unperfect, after you started all the work of thinking about it.

 

Tell me, do you think if something happened to you, and the way you reacted was exactely in line with the way you understood one of the verses in tao teh ching, how would you feel? Would it be time to check the next verse and see if you actions aligned with that verse too?

[z00se]

Also, you know why you acted so perfectly? Because there was probably very little thought before your punch. You probably just felt the pain in your arm then punched. You felt, and did, without thinking. That is the reason.

 

By the way... if you was me, i couldn't help myself from suddenly ducking and weaving and doing some shadow boxing next time i saw that guy at work with a huge grin on my face hahah. I'm sure he'd take it in good spirits but then you may end up with another bruise on your arm if he thinks its a game haha.

Edited July 10, 2012 by z00se

[Marblehead]

Diminish our desires. What does this mean when it comes to being bullied and picked on? What do you think someone should do and why? That's what I wanted to hear about and I hope other will share.

 

Aaron

It is my opinion that there are no lines to be crossed when it come to protecting myself or those I care about. I can also say that it is my opinion that none of us should ever have to live in fear. As you alluded to above, do what needs be done, nothing less, nothing more.

[eye_of_the_storm]

As T stated, idealism v reality

 

To put it short, the world is a ****** up place - though equally beautiful and so on...

 

Lesser consciousness will always take advantage of weakness... for whatever reason, thats it's nature.

 

Yes, don't go looking for violence... but I would say... be strong/ prepared...body, mind, spirit - drop passive nonsense... unless you enjoying being physically, emotionally and spiritually abused.

 

If you don't respect your own life, how do you respect others? seems to me a little insane

 

Edited July 10, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Stosh]

Twinner

 

My writing might be considered better as informal speech.

 

You probably read one or two of my posts

and you should know by now that I dont think tao is a thing that can laugh

it is called an anthropomorhism. It is figurative language.

You know darn well that the Big Apple isnt considered by anyone to be a piece of fruit.

 

Taoism as a practice holds no injunction against any behavior you engage in.

And the big universe doesnt either

except that you will endure the consequences of what you do.

But Ive read several of the texts and I understand that they do promote

some things as virtues. They are subjective assessments by humans

for humans which suggest behaviors that will help you get along with the world.

 

Yes I do have my own take on what things mean,, as do you, as does Chidragon

as does Marblehead and Gatito etc.

Ill repeat that,, AS DO YOU !

So equating me with other folks you dislike is just an unfair insult.

 

Ultimately one cannot describe what reality is or the eternal Tao,

at some point,shallow or deep , all will run out of answers.

But in the frame of reference we operate in there are things that can be described

and I just go ahead and do so.

 

If you really wanted to address just Hindus or Buddhists you could have mentioned it.

But I dont know why you'd ask for the opinions of particular groups unless you wanted to

limit the responses you would get.

 

Repressed or expressed anger against you??

Ill just tell you I dont have it.

Just take my word for it.

I told you a long time ago , even when you were attacking me fiercely

I thought we had a good bit in common and I wasnt hostile about your views.

 

But my post here did not pat you on the back.

I did not vindicate your violence

nor did I chide you about it.

 

I started with laying out my preconceptions about why you might post

and I followed through with my response about it.

I just dont think that in the situation you delineated

that your action of punching the dude in the face says much about your convictions.

 

Its not impressive nor is it disgrace , neither do you need me to tell you

how I think you are horrible or wonderful regarding what happened.

Your actions are not mine to judge nor does the universe judge them.

You have to decide whether it was the right thing for you to do.

 

Thats a pretty harmonious stance I think I already am presenting.

Stosh

Edited July 10, 2012 by Stosh

[Aaron]

zoose,

 

Thanks for your response. I would say that there is no such thing as perfection. In reality things just are what they are. I try to stay away from absolutism. In my mind mistakes are never really mistakes, but rather opportunities to learn.

 

Aaron

Edited July 12, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Twinner

 

My writing might be considered better as informal speech.

 

You probably read one or two of my posts

and you should know by now that I dont think tao is a thing that can laugh

it is called an anthropomorhism. It is figurative language.

You know darn well that the Big Apple isnt considered by anyone to be a piece of fruit.

 

Taoism as a practice holds no injunction against any behavior you engage in.

And the big universe doesnt either

except that you will endure the consequences of what you do.

But Ive read several of the texts and I understand that they do promote

some things as virtues. They are subjective assessments by humans

for humans which suggest behaviors that will help you get along with the world.

 

Yes I do have my own take on what things mean,, as do you, as does Chidragon

as does Marblehead and Gatito etc.

Ill repeat that,, AS DO YOU !

So equating me with other folks you dislike is just an unfair insult.

 

Ultimately one cannot describe what reality is or the eternal Tao,

at some point,shallow or deep , all will run out of answers.

But in the frame of reference we operate in there are things that can be described

and I just go ahead and do so.

 

If you really wanted to address just Hindus or Buddhists you could have mentioned it.

But I dont know why you'd ask for the opinions of particular groups unless you wanted to

limit the responses you would get.

 

Repressed or expressed anger against you??

Ill just tell you I dont have it.

Just take my word for it.

I told you a long time ago , even when you were attacking me fiercely

I thought we had a good bit in common and I wasnt hostile about your views.

 

But my post here did not pat you on the back.

I did not vindicate your violence

nor did I chide you about it.

 

I started with laying out my preconceptions about why you might post

and I followed through with my response about it.

I just dont think that in the situation you delineated

that your action of punching the dude in the face says much about your convictions.

 

Its not impressive nor is it disgrace , neither do you need me to tell you

how I think you are horrible or wonderful regarding what happened.

Your actions are not mine to judge nor does the universe judge them.

You have to decide whether it was the right thing for you to do.

 

Thats a pretty harmonious stance I think I already am presenting.

Stosh

 

Well thanks for your response, but again, you have a very limited understanding of the Tao Teh Ching in my opinion. It really doesn't matter to me what you think about me, I just notice the underlying animosity in your responses to my posts, verses the responses you give others.

 

Again, I recommend that you actually study the Tao Teh Ching, not read text books on the Tao Teh Ching. Your information is skewed. Also, don't try to twist my words. I was referring to the fact most knowledgeable Taoist scholars would understand that my comments about the justification of violence weren't directed at Taoist philosophy, which is very clear that it is justified, but rather the various non-violent schools of thought that are out there.

 

You are again quoting more pseudo-psychology Wayne Dyer Taoism. Stop believing everything you're told and start reading the Tao Teh Ching for yourself. Just because a man shaves his head doesn't make him a guru. In fact shaving your head is a Buddhist thing, not Taoist. (Do you understand what I'm getting at? Dyer really isn't teaching Taoism or the Tao Teh Ching.)

 

Also one can define what reality is and the Tao Teh Ching does a good job of this. You're mixing Buddhism and Taoism in that regard. Reality is what you perceive to be real through your senses. It's a very simple answer. Lao Tzu mentioned rivers, mountains, men, women, and numerous other things and understood they were very real. Read the Tao Teh Ching and you'll understand this as well. Lao Tzu mentioned that the Tao could not be described, but you seem to feel it's fine to give it human characteristics. That's fine for you, but you should realize it's meaningless BS to do so. There's a reason virtue plays such a big part in the Tao Teh Ching and a reason the vast majority ignore it and focus on Tao, because one requires you to be a virtuous person, the other is beyond virtue, hence these people seem to believe that they are beyond virtue and can behave any way they choose. The irony is that without understanding virtue you will never understand the mystery of mysteries.

 

Again, read the Tao Teh Ching, it actually shouldn't take more than a few hours, then study it, that should take a bit longer to understand. After that practice what it says and stop trying to psychoanalyze my actions, then you might just hit on what it's talking about.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Also I wasn't equating you with anyone on the forum, I'm not sure where you got that.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Twinner

[thelerner]

Diminish our desires. What does this mean when it comes to being bullied and picked on? What do you think someone should do and why? That's what I wanted to hear about and I hope other will share.

 

Aaron

Diminish our desires.. I suppose in this case its the strong desire for uninterrupted peace. We all crave peace and respect. You didn't react in anger when yours was broken several times. You diminished the desire, but not being saintly (or stupid) the need remained and you acted honestly and strategically to change the situation.

 

 

Strong desires tend to bloat the ego.

[Stosh]

Twinner,

I give up on trying to discuss anything with you

no matter what I say you take it as hostile

and make insinuations and statements

to try the patience of anyone .

Im not surprised you ended up in a fistfight

at all.

And I am becoming more and more convinced you provoked it

because you wanted to be violent.

You should be ashamed not only for starting the fight

but lying to everyone here

that you were some sort of innocent.

 

Is violence justified !

Yes you deserve a spanking!

I think that hits on the point of the thread!

Stosh

Edited July 12, 2012 by Stosh

[zanshin]

I'm not telling you this to present myself as a bad ass, because I'm not a bad ass. I have no martial arts training at all, again I boxed for about a year when I was younger, but otherwise nothing. I guess why I'm telling you this is that I realized that I am capable of violence, even though I thought I had passed beyond that need. My response wasn't so much out of a fear of death, but just plain old frustration. I had dealt with this kid's antics for around three months and I finally got tired of it. I feel a bit bad about hitting him, because I didn't mean to give him a black eye, but at the same time I feel justified in my actions.

 

Anyways I thought it might be a good topic for the thread, is violence justified and if so, when is it justified.

 

Aaron

 

I don't think it was unjustified; it was a silly kid who was being a punk, but no serious harm so pretty much senselss violence at least on his part. I certainly don't think you provoked it, but wondered have you thought about how it got to this point? Did you somehow present yourself as a target for bullying or are there ways you could have used your thinking mind before it got to point of using your punching fist. You said this was building up over 3 months. Is there a reason this kid and people in general might think it is sort of little game to pick on others? Maybe should ask him, if he answers truthfully you might feel more bad about hitting him.

[Aaron]

Twinner,

I give up on trying to discuss anything with you

no matter what I say you take it as hostile

and make insinuations and statements

to try the patience of anyone .

Im not surprised you ended up in a fistfight

at all.

And I am becoming more and more convinced you provoked it

because you wanted to be violent.

You should be ashamed not only for starting the fight

but lying to everyone here

that you were some sort of innocent.

 

Is violence justified !

Yes you deserve a spanking!

I think that hits on the point of the thread!

Stosh

 

You're letting your emotions get the best of you. Walk away before you say something that you might regret in the long run. The problem most people have is that they have no trouble spouting their own brand of righteousness and truth, but when someone calls into question the veracity of that truth they prickle up. You don't know as much as you think you know. I would say you've probably been studying the Tao for a few years at most, most likely books like "The Tao of Pooh", "The Watercourse Way", etc. You've remembered those parts you liked and forgot the parts you didn't and created you own little ideal of Taoism. The problem is that you aren't talking about Taoism, but rather Stoshism. My suggestion is don't use terms like Tao or Taoism, rather talk about it in a generic sense and no one will call you on your BS, but rather just accept it as being your own personal philosophy.

 

I would also suggest that you try finding other ways to push people's buttons. I'm not all that concerned what you think about what happened, rather I find your tactics of name calling a bit childish and a sign of someone with very limited emotional maturity.

 

 

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

I don't think it was unjustified; it was a silly kid who was being a punk, but no serious harm so pretty much senselss violence at least on his part. I certainly don't think you provoked it, but wondered have you thought about how it got to this point? Did you somehow present yourself as a target for bullying or are there ways you could have used your thinking mind before it got to point of using your punching fist. You said this was building up over 3 months. Is there a reason this kid and people in general might think it is sort of little game to pick on others? Maybe should ask him, if he answers truthfully you might feel more bad about hitting him.

 

It started because he wanted to spar with me and I told him no. It started with pushing and shoving, just goofing off, but escalated. He wanted to prove to me he was a Wing Chun master. At one point he demanded I practice pushing hands with him and I told him I wasn't interested. He tried to provoke me and I wouldn't be provoked. No one can make me do anything I don't want to do. The only reason I acted at all was because he was becoming more violent. I decided something needed to be done before it got out of hand and someone got hurt.

 

I think the problem is he was taught martial arts but no discipline, so he believes in the old adage "might makes right". I didn't cause him any lasting harm, but maybe I got him thinking that he can't pick on other people because of their age, size, etc. I'm sure he thought because he was nineteen and I was forty-two that I was intimidated by him, but I wasn't. I tried very hard to bring it to an end peacefully, but he seemed to not want anything to do with that.

 

Anyways life will go on, no matter what happened, so I'm not going to let this one incident dictate the course of the rest of my life, even though in every sense of the word it will. I still like to have the illusion of control over my life.

 

Aaron

Edited July 12, 2012 by Twinner

[Yuen Biao]

[paulno]

I had a Kung Fu instructor (who was also a Zen Buddhist) tell me a story years ago that sort of reminds me of this situation.

 

He said he was at war (I think Vietnam) and when he came up to an enemy he'd draw his gun and smile. He said most of the time, the enemy would smile back and drop their weapon. On a few occasions though, the enemy would raise their weapon and he'd have to shoot.

 

I asked him how was he able to live with maiming and even killing others at times. He shrugged and said,"People choose their own karma."

 

Not sure if this is applicable to your situation or not but I've been waiting years to tell this story. LOL

[Marblehead]

Not sure if this is applicable to your situation or not but I've been waiting years to tell this story. LOL

Whether or not it is a good story. Thanks for sharing.

[mYTHmAKER]

I had a Kung Fu instructor (who was also a Zen Buddhist) tell me a story years ago that sort of reminds me of this situation.

 

He said he was at war (I think Vietnam) and when he came up to an enemy he'd draw his gun and smile. He said most of the time, the enemy would smile back and drop their weapon. On a few occasions though, the enemy would raise their weapon and he'd have to shoot.

 

I asked him how was he able to live with maiming and even killing others at times. He shrugged and said,"People choose their own karma."

 

Not sure if this is applicable to your situation or not but I've been waiting years to tell this story. LOL

 

[Mal]

All Bolds mine

I got into a shouting match in April because I yelled at a woman who threatened to punch a little boy who was walking with her. A bit before that I got into a confrontation with a group of kids who were destroying the neighbor's garbage cans. What I realize is that I'm not as passive as I thought I was, but what provokes me to anger the quickest isn't those things that cause me harm, I can take abuse for quite awhile before I react, rather it's those things causing others harm that irritate me the most.

^

 

I decided something needed to be done before it got out of hand and someone got hurt.

 

No you reacted

he hit me on the forearm as hard as he could and left a huge bruise, about 2 inches round, I reacted by punching him in the face and laying him out flat on the ground.

and there is nothing wrong with that. I was in a fight once years back where people went to prison. I explained it all to my Sifu, with my various reasons worries justifications etc. and he said ...

 

"You think too much"

 

[Aaron]

So an interesting thing developed with the kid at work, I was walking over to talk with the guy he was working with, he walked up and I wasn't paying attention. Anyways, he called my name once or twice, I looked at him and he was holding a knife. I told him that what he was doing was considered assault with a deadly weapon and he started to complain that I couldn't take a joke, then said I had no witnesses because the guy I was talking to was a close friend of his. I told him it wasn't funny and if he did it again I'd call the cops.

 

My gut feeling is that this kid is seriously imbalanced. I'm going to talk to my boss about it, but I don't know if I feel safe working with him anymore. I'm not to worried about being stabbed, really I'm pissed that he thought it was funny. Anyways that's all I have to say about that. Just venting.

 

Aaron

[thelerner]

While you shouldn't reduce a person to just a single label, part of what this kid is, is an anal retentive bully who craves attention.

 

You might be able to change the situation by giving the kid what he really wants. Attention. Just noticing him, talking to him a bit during the day, asking his opinion on something. It's not about befriending the jerk, but about recognizing a deep need in him. And ultimately even as an acquaintance, you'd be a good influence.

 

Maybe...(?)

[Marblehead]

Or maybe you could just ...

 

No, never mind. Not a good idea.

[Clarity]

When I check on Aaron's co-worker, I get a lot of karma around being traumatized. He is trying to resolve that karma by traumatizing and threatening others. He also has a big weakness coming down from the ancestors around threatening people with violence (it's a karmic issue from his ancestors), corrected and deleted.

 

Aaron, you also have a weakness around being traumatized, so this guy is kind of resonating with you and asking you for help, albeit in a very inappropriate way. So I'm correcting your spiritual experiences of being traumatized. There is also a wandering weakness coming from your mind and spirit, also corrected.

 

Finally, there is also some indirect karma between the two of you which we can even out and delete with an energetic correction.

 

Sincerely,

 

-Adam

[Aaron]

When I check on Aaron's co-worker, I get a lot of karma around being traumatized. He is trying to resolve that karma by traumatizing and threatening others. He also has a big weakness coming down from the ancestors around threatening people with violence (it's a karmic issue from his ancestors), corrected and deleted.

 

Aaron, you also have a weakness around being traumatized, so this guy is kind of resonating with you and asking you for help, albeit in a very inappropriate way. So I'm correcting your spiritual experiences of being traumatized. There is also a wandering weakness coming from your mind and spirit, also corrected.

 

Finally, there is also some indirect karma between the two of you which we can even out and delete with an energetic correction.

 

Sincerely,

 

-Adam

 

 

Thank you Adam! I appreciate your help.

 

Aaron