Yin/Yan and 5 Element theory quaint ancient ideas

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon

The point Laot Tze wanted to make was that:

5. The weak vanquishes the strong.

6. The softness vanquishes the hardness.

 

Stosh

If the weak vanquishes the strong what sense at all does it make to call something strong?

if a person smashes a rock with a harder rock how, in this situation , did the soft rock

overcome the hard rock?

 

It was the solid particles in the rock that make it strong.

Water drops one by one can penetrate the rock.

I don't see a dyad of yin-yang in your analogy. I saw three things, a person, hard rock and soft rock. BTW It was the person(yin) who overcome the rock(yang).

 

 

Did he make his point....??? I think he did. Even you'd said so yourself.

"Yes water can wear down a stone

but when the water runs out the stone remains"

How is what I said an example illustating your point?

 

 

The water(yin) worn the stone(yang).

 

PS...

The Yi Jing had never called Yin-Yang are forces. By observation, Yang is the sunlight on the south side of the hill; and Yin is the shadow on the north side of the hill. Therefore, the shadow always stays with the light which cannot be separated from each other. That is why people say that: "if there is Yin, then there is Yang and vice versa." Nothing can make them apart.

 

It is as equally reasonable or unreasonable to say that the two are never together ,

as it is to say they are never apart

 

When an analogy was made, just be sure that both Yin-Yang are present in the analogy. Otherwise, it will not hold water....!!!

 

Ok , but I dont see where I diverged from that,( if you mean it half serious.)

Stosh

 

Can you have your shadow run away from you....???

[sunshine]

Classical Chinese view is much more flexible

I feel than you think it its... and -as said-

it is not a "once said it is the truth and the

only truth" - we have models here to play with...

 

If you look at Chinese medicine and the 5 elements...

usually people know of the nourishing cycle and

the destroying cycle...

 

but looking closely the is a counterdestroying cycle

as well... a general view might be that the soft

overcomes the hard... but is the hard is pathologically

hard the soft can get weaker...

 

Fire can melt metal... but metal which heating point

does not get reached won't be melted!

 

Water can "kill" the Fire... but Fire can "kill" the Water as well...

depending on circumstance...

 

Metal can cut the wood... but if metal is weak or wood too strong

the metal will get damaged in the process of cutting...

 

 

all I want to say possibly is: be more flexible!

 

just a thought...

 

H

[ChiDragon]

Well well well, why would one like to put oneself in such a paradoxical dilemma....???

1. Fire can melt metal... but metal which heating point

does not get reached won't be melted!"

 

I am sure that someone would melt the metal completely to make a copper pipe.

 

2. Water can "kill" the Fire... but Fire can "kill" the Water as well...

depending on circumstance...

Well, when there was a fire at a house, one would throw buckets of water over fire to save the house.

However, when there was a flood around a house, would one throw torches over the water...???

 

3. Metal can cut the wood... but if metal is weak or wood too strong

the metal will get damaged in the process of cutting...

Why would someone wants to cut a tree with a hack saw....???

Would it be a better idea to do it with an ax or a power saw....???

 

4. all I want to say possibly is: be more flexible!

 

Yes, only with common sense.

 

5. just a thought...

Just an after thought......

Edited July 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

 

It was the solid particles in the rock that make it strong.

Water drops one by one can penetrate the rock.

I don't see a dyad of yin-yang in your analogy. I saw three things, a person, hard rock and soft rock. BTW It was the person(yin) who overcome the rock(yang).

 

The water(yin) worn the stone(yang).

 

 

Can you have your shadow run away from you....???

Ohhh you are getting slick

 

The water drops penetrate the rock because it is corrosive

it will even etch glass sitting still.

 

The water thing is mostly metaphor for human endeavor isnt it?

Folks live and die and may never accomplish what they started.

 

According to the texts, What is it in the nature of rocks for them to do?

I figured it was to remain , be heavy , and hard., so if the rock gets to

continue to follow its nature all it has to do is remain.

 

My body intervenes between the light and the shadow, they never meet

where they are created and darkness is where there is no light

and light is where there is no darkness.

They never get together.

 

Stosh

Edited July 17, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Classical Chinese view is much more flexible

I feel than you think it its... and -as said-

it is not a "once said it is the truth and the

only truth" - we have models here to play with...

 

If you look at Chinese medicine and the 5 elements...

usually people know of the nourishing cycle and

the destroying cycle...

 

but looking closely the is a counterdestroying cycle

as well... a general view might be that the soft

overcomes the hard... but is the hard is pathologically

hard the soft can get weaker...

 

Fire can melt metal... but metal which heating point

does not get reached won't be melted!

 

Water can "kill" the Fire... but Fire can "kill" the Water as well...

depending on circumstance...

 

Metal can cut the wood... but if metal is weak or wood too strong

the metal will get damaged in the process of cutting...

 

 

all I want to say possibly is: be more flexible!

 

just a thought...

 

H

Id say that was a rational way to look at it

but I havent been told yet how this exceeds or is superior

to the scientific view , the scientific view encompasses all

that you have said there.

 

Folks have told me a few times that I am not being flexible

I see it that it is not me being inflexible

I see it that while my view already embraces the views

held by y'all and is yet broader encompassing

 

I dont know how to say this more gently

so Ill just say it as is,,

It is y'all who are being less flexible than I.

REALLY!

 

Stosh

[ChiDragon]

My body intervenes between the light and the shadow, they never meet

where they are created and darkness is where there is no light

and light is where there is no darkness.

They never get together.

 

Stosh

 

If there is light, then it is pure Yang. Darkness is pure Yin. The changing phase between Yin and Yang depends on the interference of an object with the light source.

 

When there are you and your shadow, then it is the relationship between the you and the shadow of you. Thus it was no longer the relationship between the light and darkness but the movement of you and your shadow. The shadow moves with you because you are active(Yang) and your shadow is passive(Yin). Now, in this scenario, we can say when there is Yang(you) there is Yin(your shadow).

 

Let's look at the phases of the moon.

The Yi Jing was written based on the relationship between the light(Yang) and darkness(Yin).

Please keep in mind that Yang is active and Yin is passive again.

Therefore, when there was no light, then there is darkness.

However, we cannot say:

"when there was darkness, then there is light."

It was because that the darkness depends on the light source.

The light source does not depend on the darkness.

 

Stosh: "My body intervenes between the light and the shadow"

Your body interfered with the light alright but not the shadow. The shadow was never there, in the first place, until you stepped into the light to created your own shadow.

 

You cant snow me with this one; I wont let you....!!!

Edited July 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Cd

Therefore, when there was no light, then there is darkness.

However, we cannot say:

"when there was darkness, then there is light."

It was because that the darkness depends on the light source.

The light source does not depend on the darkness.

 

Stosh

You can so say the inverse!

When there is no light there is darkness

when there is no darkness there is light

and you can say

when there was darkness there is no light

That is because they are mutually exclusive if they are pure

and

it is incorrect to say to say that one can exist without the other

to differentiate it from !!

 

That is basic Tao 101 !

It is like saying the coin can exist with one side only

Cd

You cant snow me with this one; I wont let you....!!!

 

Stosh

You said it yourself,"That is why people say that: "if there is Yin, then there is Yang and vice versa." Nothing can make them apart."

 

 

You slipped in the snow !

I cant wait to see how you wiggle out of that!

Stosh

Edited July 17, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Stosh

You said it yourself,"That is why people say that: "if there is Yin, then there is Yang and vice versa." Nothing can make them apart."

 

 

You slipped in the snow !

I cant wait to see how you wiggle out of that!

Stosh

 

Hahaha........

When you stepped into the light and created a shadow, now you are the Yang and the shadow is Yin. As long the light shines on you, then Yin-Yang is a whole and cannot be separated. Thus, as long as you are there, your shadow is there. As long the shadow was there, then you were there. Can you run away from your shadow and vice versa...??? ......

Edited July 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

Id say that was a rational way to look at it

but I havent been told yet how this exceeds or is superior

to the scientific view , the scientific view encompasses all

that you have said there.

 

Folks have told me a few times that I am not being flexible

I see it that it is not me being inflexible

I see it that while my view already embraces the views

held by y'all and is yet broader encompassing

 

I dont know how to say this more gently

so Ill just say it as is,,

It is y'all who are being less flexible than I.

REALLY!

 

Stosh

 

Because ye'r an 'Earth -thing' per the 5E. :-)

[Stosh]

Hahaha........

When you stepped into the light and created a shadow, now you are the Yang and the shadow is Yin. As long the light shines on you, then Yin-Yang is a whole and cannot be separated. Thus, as long as you are there, your shadow is there. As long the shadow was there, then you were there. Can you run away from your shadow and vice versa...??? ......

 

 

Sure I can get away from a shadow, since its an outline

I can go in a cave , or go to a place where there is no

light floor such as the open ocean or easier yet I can stand in a shadow

of something bigger.

 

The Implication that I play yin to the yang of the light

doesnt make broader sense either

To have distinction there must exist both a thing

and its inverse.

I am not the inverse of light , I may not be light,

but I am not Yin the inverse of light which is darkness

darkness still exists and I am not the inverse of darkness,

Yang-light.

If I , blocking the light ,was the inverse of darkness

there would be no shadow.

 

Stosh

Edited July 18, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Because ye'r an 'Earth -thing' per the 5E. :-)

Im not sure I get that right,

 

Are you saying I am mere matter mortal

rather than in touch with the infinite Tao

which is unchanging and formless?

That would make me far greater than the Tao!

because I can exclude it

yet it has to include me.

Thats a very nice thing to say!

Thanks

Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Sure I can get away from a shadow, since its an outline

I can go in a cave , or go to a place where there is no

light floor such as the open ocean or easier yet I can stand in a shadow

of something bigger.

 

The Implication that I play yin to the yang of the light

doesnt make broader sense either

To have distinction there must exist both a thing

and its inverse.

I am not the inverse of light , I may not be light,

but I am not Yin the inverse of light which is darkness

darkness still exists and I am not the inverse of darkness,

Yang-light.

If I , blocking the light ,was the inverse of darkness

there would be no shadow.

 

Stosh

Okay....

That sounds like the spirit of an ostrich.

Let's quit here while nobody is ahead......

[Stosh]

Okay....

That sounds like the spirit of an ostrich.

Let's quit here while nobody is ahead......

Ok

[Birch]

Im not sure I get that right,

 

Are you saying I am mere matter mortal

rather than in touch with the infinite Tao

which is unchanging and formless?

That would make me far greater than the Tao!

because I can exclude it

yet it has to include me.

Thats a very nice thing to say!

Thanks

Stosh

It was a spontaneous utterance based on what I reckon your most prominent 5E 'element' is based on how I read what you write to me. If you want to check it out and have fun telling me I'm wrong (or just for fun;-)) you can go find a Bazi 4 pillar calculator online (Google it grandmother:-))

[Stosh]

It was a spontaneous utterance based on what I reckon your most prominent 5E 'element' is based on how I read what you write to me. If you want to check it out and have fun telling me I'm wrong (or just for fun;-)) you can go find a Bazi 4 pillar calculator online (Google it grandmother:-))

Ahh, I appear earthy !,

That would be quite ironic or appropriate actually

But I will check that thing out at lunchtime.

Thanks

Stosh

[Stosh]

The chart looked like this

 

Yin metal yinfire yangfire yinwood

pig rooster horse snake

 

I guess my daymaster is fire, but I have no idea what any of

the rest is supposed to indicate, (..and I did look)

 

Fire is probably the last element I would have expected

But Then again ,I always did think of myself as mellow

and I am told that its not the case.

:0

Stosh

Edited July 19, 2012 by Stosh