Yogani caught on Amazon

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi,

There is a post on AYP where Shanti begs for books reviews on Amazon about Yogani's latest book called "Liberation". I felt that this was not right, because everyone on the forum at AYP is naturally biased, (dissentors and combatants having been removed due to heavy handed moderation) and some AYP members even have sister sites and sell Yogani's books. How is that fair? Doesn't that lead to biased reviews?

 

So I wrote a review on "Liberation" by Yogani on Amazon.

I wrote my honest opinion.

 

You can see it here: 1 star

 

Mysteriously, someone made some nasty comments about my review, to which I replied. After a few comments back and forth, because of the arrogance of the comments and general writing style, the attacking of my practices and competency (which is what Yogani eventually did to me), I started to suspect that the person commenting, named "bv" was either Yogani himself or someone from the forum.

 

In his last comment, he posted the line "So AYP did not work for you", which was so similar to what Yogani had posted to me on the AYP forum that I got curious. So, I examined the profile for 'bv'. I found two book reviews, one for Jed Mckenna's book (which contained derogatory comments about spiritual teachers) and another about a book of mass marketing yoga to the masses. The comments were written in Yogani's slick subdued style.. Yup. This was Yogani. Commenting on other author's books. Coming to the defense of his book by trying to discredit me, rather than addressing the issues.

 

So I responded and called him by name, the person behind the nasty comments..

 

Well, I was right. It was Yogani. He deleted all his comments and his two book reviews!

 

Intuitively, I knew that he might do that so I saved the last comment that he had written and then pasted it back into my comments. (bolded below) It is a valuable piece of text because of what Yogani says. It put things into perspective.

 

Here it is:

 

[Deleted by the author 12 hours ago]

 

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Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2012 9:24:34 AM PDT

The Discerning Eye says:

Excuse me but I was member of AYP for 4 1/2 years and I own and have read all the books, the lessons and was an active member on the forum until I was banned for not supporting the AYP point of view and questioning the bastardized practices. I have been meditating and performing spiritual practices for over 40 years. And, it was due to my experiences that I came to realize that AYP is far off the mark. Let me explain. After 3 years of performing AYP's mantra meditation incorrectly ala Patanjali, I changed the technique from releasing the mantra to focusing on and sustaining the visualized letter "I" while in a deep meditative state. Well, the periphery of awareness became very dark, the "I" became very bright, there was much bliss, crystal clarity and then I was gone. True Samadhi. This caused me to examine the teachings and I started asking questions, questioning AYP's definition of inner silence, definition of the last three limbs of Patanjali's yoga and I discovered that they were not the same. There is a quite a difference between TM's 'effortless mantra repetition' (which is AYP's Deep Meditation, which produces the well known "relaxation response") and Patanjali's "sustained awareness/attention producing samadhi". Further, I believe it is dangerous to practice kundalini activation techniques followed by deep meditation because it only serves to overload the psyche with the coarse sexual energy. Throughout the ages, traditional mantra repetition has always been performed in conjunction with the breath. There is a reason for it. The out-breath is the body's natural mechanism for releasing pent-up thoughts, stress and tension. By disregarding the breath totally during mantra repetition, any excess of prana/chi/energy is not expelled. The buildup of energy in the head produces overload, kundalini syndrome and other detrimental effects. AYP is the invention of joining TM with customized Kriya Yoga practices and then using the general public as guinea pigs.

Also, you would expect a book on Liberation to address the concepts of Omnipresence, Omnipotence and Omniscience. Liberation is not just tying into the function of unlimited imagination or awareness, of the feeling that we are all ONE. There are certain fruits that are signposts of a truly enlightened being. There is no mention of them in this book. No mention of siddhis. No rainbow body. No conquering of death. No miracles. Yogani does not address any of these, other than to mention some vague question about what happens after death is unknown. Perhaps there is a reason.. Guidelines

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In reply to your post on Jul 6, 2012 1:16:32 PM PDT

[Deleted by the author 12 hours ago]

 

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Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2012 7:50:06 PM PDT

Last edited by you on Jul 6, 2012 9:52:34 PM PDT

The Discerning Eye says:

You must be from AYP. Biased. Your comment about blame is unjustified. I've had lots of heart wrenching mind blowing experiences. And I would qualify your statement that you do get out of it what you put into it. If you put your heart and soul and intellect into it, you'll certainly get allot more out of it than just ordinary effort like"brushing your teeth twice a day then forgetting it" like Yogani would say. Perhaps, try 24 hour mindfulness and see how that works for you.

But you know, you should perhaps study the AYP sayings a little more. Yogani has said many times: "In AYP we find the line and use it by easily favoring

the practice over the experiences (scenery) we encounter along the way. As we say in the lessons, "experiences do not cultivate enlightenment -- practices do."

And this: "We just easily favor the procedure, no matter what is happening. We can enjoy our experiences inbetween our practice sessions. How we feel between sittings is the real measure of how effective our practices are. During practices, just about anything is possible, depending on the course of

purification occurring in the moment. That is why we favor the practice itself, as this is what is bringing up the experiences in the first place. As we say: "Experiences do not cause spiritual progress. Practices do."

And this: "Practices are what produce our spiritual progress. Following experiences during practices does not produce significant spiritual progress, so we favor the practice while we are doing it."

And this: "Experiences do not produce spiritual progress. Practices do."

So, you see, your "experiential base" is just "scenery" to AYP.

And then, after preaching about practices and ignoring the scenery, Yogani contradicts himself by writing this in the "Liberation book": "It is our own direct experience that will drive our actions on the path. We can have the greatest blessings of the sages, and all the tools in the world, but if we are not willing to take responsibility for our development, driven by our direct experiences, our journey will be out of balance, out of kilter, and not very progressive. Taking personal responsibility is the key on our path to freedom. Isn't this the case with anything that is important to us?"

 

And yet, when I took responsibility for my practices, starting examining them and questioning the procedures, I was banned from AYP. The word "hypocrite" comes to mind..

 

Be Well.

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In reply to your post on Jul 7, 2012 7:59:06 AM PDT

[Deleted by the author on Jul 7, 2012 8:28:16 AM PDT]

 

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In reply to your post on Jul 7, 2012 9:00:43 AM PDT

[Deleted by the author 12 hours ago]

 

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Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jul 7, 2012 4:11:00 PM PDT

Last edited by you on Jul 7, 2012 4:36:34 PM PDT

The Discerning Eye says:

You sound like either Yogani or one of the forum moderators that may have banned me. How else would arrive at your observations? Perhaps you could disclose your AYP name so we could investigate your posts and bring up your personal history and use it against you.

 

If AYP was sincere about teaching beginners the AYP techniques, then they should have a private forum, which is not open to the public, instead of posting in plain view, to the whole world and google. It's a business, right? Got to advertise, right? Not only does Yogani sell the posts in his books, but some of his moderators and leaders have their own sites, all selling the books. I am aware of affiliate programs and the probability that not just Yogani is benefiting monetarily from the sales..

 

You know, I've spent a few hundred dollars on Yogani's books and more importantly, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading them.

 

And just to be clear, it is not as you are implying. I am not enacting a revenge on AYP because I was banned. Through my investigations, I discovered that AYP is teaching erroneous concepts, bastardizing practices, removing things (like the AUM in spinal breathing), changing the order of things, straying far away from the TM style meditation by proclaiming the purificatory powers of the mantra (when the mantra is just a hypnogogic tool), etc. etc..

 

Someone has to point this out. I wish someone would have to me.

 

Regardless, all of my arguments are valid and stand on their own ground, despite the attempt by you to discredit me based on my over-enthusiastic behaviour in the forums.

 

You know, there are so many people that have been banned from AYP that it is really too bad. The AYP forum posts have been judiciously pruned to make it look like one big happy family through heavy handed moderation.

 

The final straws were when Yogani wrote this to me: "Or forget about analysis altogether, and just practice daily with consistency. Letting go of the need to analyze is the way forward. The nature of our experience during meditation is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant during meditation is consistent application of the procedure."

In another post to me Yogani claimed that intellectual knowledge is valueless.

Further, when I started to question his deviations from classic practices, he attacked me and my practices personally, instead of explaining the reasons for the changes.

So unless you are willing to discuss the observations and inconsistencies that I have discovered in the AYP teachings, instead of trying to discredit me personally, I will consider this topic closed.

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In reply to your post on Jul 8, 2012 6:40:55 AM PDT

[Deleted by the author 12 hours ago]

 

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Your post, in reply to an earlier post on Jul 8, 2012 3:42:28 PM PDT

Last edited by you 27 minutes ago

The Discerning Eye says:

Yogani, (bv) I see you've deleted your posts and your book reviews!

How lucky you are that they let you delete your posts here. Something you can't do at AYP, can you.. how did you put it when I asked you why, even though AYP was advertising that you could edit and delete your posts at any time in the forum rules? Something about disrupting the continuity of the forum? I thought the writings by authors are the property of the authors, as AYP advertises. And then, two months after you said you would look into this, still nothing had been done and I still could not delete my posts. So I contacted Ananda and he mentioned it to you. So what did you do? You changed the forum rules. How is that being just and proper?

 

So, you've deleted your comments here... You know, I thought of that! I saved your last comment, because it is your admission that AYP is unproven, that it is an arena of guinea pig testing, and most importantly, you've said yourself that AYP is non-traditional yoga. What you really should say is it is a concoction of non-standard customized yoga practices by someone whom believes that from his 'scientific perspective' that enlightenment is a neurobiological phenomenon.

 

Here is your last comment, the one you posted on Jul 8, 2012 3:42:28 wherein you said:

 

********************** start Yogani's quote

Friend, there is no point going into the particulars of practice and experience here. These things are fully covered in the AYP writings, including in the book you just reviewed. The paradoxes and perceptual contradictions that occur in advancing spiritual experience, resulting from consistent daily practice over time (which you have not done), are found in every spiritual teaching that has stood the test of time, going back for thousands of years. The true test of AYP will be time, not the challenges of people who demand that everything must make sense to the intellect. It will never happen. The wisely-used intellect can bring you to consistent daily practice and provide inspiration for continuing with it over the long term. But intellect can never be the practice itself. That is your ongoing error, and it is why you are not comprehending any of this. Don't blame it on AYP. The problem is much closer to home.

 

Why don't you go pick on other long-standing non-duality teachings? There are plenty of them out there that say nothing different, including lots of enlightenment paradoxes and perceptual contradictions. The realm of spiritual experience is beyond time and space, and that is why the temporal mind and intellect will always be confounded by it. The logical outcome is a gradual surrender of the mind to the arising enlightenment experience. The difference between the AYP books and others is that more means are provided in writing covering all of yoga. That level of written instruction on practices is non-traditional. The rest is like any other spiritual writing. Another difference is that what is being documented in AYP is being directly experienced by many who are living, and that is a phenomenon. So the AYP writings are not philosophical. They are practical and experiential. You can argue that the AYP practices are bastardized, do not work, are dangerous, etc., but there are many who would beg to differ with you based on their own experience that far exceeds your own.

 

So AYP did not work for you. Get over it, and move on. What you are doing now is meddling with the paths of others. It is not for you to decide what is appropriate for others. They can decide for themselves. If you are out to do harm, the one you will harm the most will be yourself, with the first casualty being your precious time for doing more productive things.

************************** end quote

 

And this was my reply.

 

Yogani, you are a narcisistic, self-centered ass. What gives you the right to decide what is appropriate for others? Who declared you the guru? If people can decide for themselves, then they are entitled to view all sides. The intellect plays an integral part in self-realization and you know, most people are much smarter than you give them credit for.

What really disconcerting about your teachings is that they have not grown and your understanding and fairness to other systems has not balanced out.

You really should read some writings that are much more mature than your current level of understanding. Perhaps some A. H. Almaas or Anadi.

AND, to someone who recommends the abandonment of analysis, logic and intellectual reasoning, I would again point this out: (from A.H. Almaas's book called "The Inner Journey Home"):

Quote:

"The next step is the development of dispassion and discriminating wisdom. The first is needed for the detachment for the effect from the gunas (inertia, passion, purity); for until these are transcended the soul is bound to wordly experiences and tends toward external flow. The second has to do with developing the subtlest function of the buddhi (intellect), what is called ritambhara prajna, meaning truth bearing intellect: "The power of that intellect which grasps the truth completely and does not accept even a trace of untruth is known as truth bearing intellect... Through it's truth bearing nature it aids a man to realize the subtlest knowledge of the difference between Pursha and Prakriti, known as discriminitive understanding or Viveka Kyati.

This discriminating understanding that the essential intellect is capable of is recognised by this yoga as the particular capacity need for liberation: "The direct means of attaining Moksha is Viveka Jnana or discriminative knowledge". It makes it possible for the individual to discriminate truth from falsehood, and to discriminate the true form and meaning of the subtle realities. It's function becomes specifically necessary for discerning and realizing the atman."

 

But I see from your book reviews that you are more interested in Jed Mckenna's anti-teachers writings and mass-marketing scientific yoga.

 

Tell me, in your book about retreats, do you also tell how to sponsor retreats while remaining anonymous? And how to get people to work for you for free?

 

Now I ask you, is that what enlightened people do? Write comments about other books on Amazon? Attack their ex-forum-members personally and spiritually? Boast about potential of their yogic creations, when they are unproven? I certainly hope not!

 

So the next time some brown-nosing parrot from AYP tells you that AYP will get you there, think again.

Learn to use your own mind. It is your only friend.

 

TI

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Birch]

Interesting development T_I

 

What I wonder is why your post got +7 and no comments. I read it already but was initially hesitant to comment as I didn't want to attract the loathing of any AYP folks and followers (just something I prefer to avoid). And then I didn't comment because I didn't see anyone else picking it up (I have my 'sheep' moments).

 

I was thinking a bit about the request to comment on the book etc and I figured that was no real big deal as IME people that produce stuff and promo it online often leverage their immediate friends/acquaintances (sp?) to 'Like' or comment on it. So AYP is using what has become 'pretty regular' online marketing techniques and I suppose had I ever authored anything I'd be there promoting it a lot and asking people I know to help promote it.

 

Do you intend to 'be there' every time the AYP folks comment on Amazon or whatever? My guess is they will return to do so after a time. I wonder if you're willing to keep it up and invest time and effort in it. Personally I wouldn't but that's just me. I don't know what that says about me. Probably something not very courageous. I don't know how arguments about practices have been solved in the past.

[thelerner]

the 7 stars, no comments is unusual.

 

TI obviously you've got a score to settle with AYP and won't rest til its done. My recommendation, take a rest anyway. In truth, AYP is rarely mentioned here, except by you.

 

 

 

Personally I've rarely gone to the AYP site, but the little I've read there in the past seemed pretty intelligent.

Edited July 12, 2012 by thelerner

[Tibetan_Ice]

Interesting development T_I

 

What I wonder is why your post got +7 and no comments. I read it already but was initially hesitant to comment as I didn't want to attract the loathing of any AYP folks and followers (just something I prefer to avoid). And then I didn't comment because I didn't see anyone else picking it up (I have my 'sheep' moments).

 

I was thinking a bit about the request to comment on the book etc and I figured that was no real big deal as IME people that produce stuff and promo it online often leverage their immediate friends/acquaintances (sp?) to 'Like' or comment on it. So AYP is using what has become 'pretty regular' online marketing techniques and I suppose had I ever authored anything I'd be there promoting it a lot and asking people I know to help promote it.

 

Do you intend to 'be there' every time the AYP folks comment on Amazon or whatever? My guess is they will return to do so after a time. I wonder if you're willing to keep it up and invest time and effort in it. Personally I wouldn't but that's just me. I don't know what that says about me. Probably something not very courageous. I don't know how arguments about practices have been solved in the past.

Hi K

 

Thanks for your comments, they always seem to have a soothing effect on me.

 

Yes, I will keep at it. It is a sad and sorry thing to have to expose something that you once thought was authentic, in support of the truth and universal principles of yoga, when in fact the only truth found there was Yogani's truth.

 

I will never forget Yogani's argument in support of mantra repetition versus breath meditation. He said, once the breathing stops you have nothing left to focus on, whereas if you are doing mantra repetition and the breathing stops, you can still do the mantra!!! Not only did he not understand that Buddha's Anapanasati is not soley about the breath, but he didn't understand that with breath meditation eventually nimittas (signs) appear, which you then switch your attention to. And, when you focus on the nimitta and penetrate it, it takes you to samadhi/jhana.

 

The other point is that you can only do so much of mantra repetition before the medulla tires and tries to shut off, whereas, like Alan Wallace says, you can meditate for hours on the breath. The other point is that mantra repetition is the mind effortfully creating a form, creating a thought or a subvocalization. It takes effort. That effort can prevent you from going deeper. When the nimitta appears, it does so naturally, without effort. The same goes for the breathing. Breathing occurs on it's own so you can remain a passive observer. Mantra repetition activates the lower tan tien and sends out spurts of chi/prana/winds. The two techniques are totally different. That is why Alan Wallace says that you can't use mantra to still the mind ala shamatha. And, it's very hard to overload while doing breath meditation because the out-breath is a natural vent for excess energy.

 

I know you weren't looking for any lessons on Anapanasati, sorry..

 

How did people solve spiritual differences in the past? They went to war. They killed millions of people in the name of their religion. Stupid to have to die only to be reborn and have to go through growing up all over again, isn't it?

 

Here, I will sing you a song.. in the key of B:

 

Row row row your boat, gently down the stream,

Merrily, merrily merrily merrily,

Life is but a dream..

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

the 7 stars, no comments is unusual.

 

TI obviously you've got a score to settle with AYP and won't rest til its done. My recommendation, take a rest anyway. In truth, AYP is rarely mentioned here, except by you.

 

Personally I've rarely gone to the AYP site, but the little I've read there in the past seemed pretty intelligent.

 

Hi theLerner

Thanks for your comments.

I guess I was really hurt when I discovered that AYP wasn't about seeking the truth. My attempts to further elaborate on concepts, teach people about the third eye, in support of Kunlun and correct understanding etc were viewed as leading people away from the AYP philosophy and a 'distraction which would no longer be tolerated'.

 

The hardest thing, apart from no longer being able to even view the forum from my home IP, is that I've lost the ability to communicate with the few intelligent members whom I respected, who held to their own points of view, despite the immense pressure and constant battering by the brown-nosing parrots.

 

You know, I've been a member of TTB since 2008, I started out here before I started posting at AYP and you are right. There is not much mention of AYP here. I wish there would have been some warnings..

 

But many AYP members read TTB because it is a clear pool of opinions untainted by a lording despot. (okay, I admit, maybe some opinions here aren't really a clear shining pool of lucid intelligence either, but that is par for the course).

 

AND, there are some very intelligent people here whose opinions I respect greatly.

 

Although a rest from it all sounds nice, there is no rest for the wicked..

 

TI

Edited July 12, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Cat Pillar]

Personally I wouldn't but that's just me. I don't know what that says about me. Probably something not very courageous.

 

Forgive me for butting my head in where it doesn't belong, but...I've noticed that you tend to be rather down on yourself in some of your posts.

 

I enjoy what you have to say and I have a lot of respect for you...personally, I think you're too hard on yourself.

[Protector]

OH! So Yogani is not a fish and Amazon is not the river

[Birch]

Forgive me for butting my head in where it doesn't belong, but...I've noticed that you tend to be rather down on yourself in some of your posts.

 

I enjoy what you have to say and I have a lot of respect for you...personally, I think you're too hard on yourself.

 

Hello Cat_Pillar. Thanks for the expression of concern but I don't actually feel particularly bad.

It could be a typical 'dog-training' thing installed by the culture I was brought up in.

 

The other reason I do it is so I don't come across as judgemental of people and catch the onslaught as a result. Hum, I guess that's somewhat hypocritical of me but perhaps it's also honest Had I told T_I that I thought he was wasting his time on the whole thing, would it have been more that I wouldn't waste my time on it??

 

I wouldn't but like I said that's just me. And why wouldn't I? Well, I'm especially averse to being singled out of my sheep pen and I don't want to get embroiled in fights about this stuff - even if I'm in my corner pondering relatively seriously the potential damage being done by misinformation and wrong practices- which I do think denotes a certain absence of courage on my part.

 

Respect mutual:-)

[thelerner]

The hardest thing, apart from no longer being able to even view the forum from my home IP, is that I've lost the ability to communicate with the few intelligent members whom I respected, who held to their own points of view, despite the immense pressure and constant battering by the brown-nosing parrots.

 

You know, I've been a member of TTB since 2008, I started out here before I started posting at AYP and you are right. There is not much mention of AYP here. I wish there would have been some warnings..

 

respect I understand where you're coming from.

[Birch]

Hi K

Thanks for your comments, they always seem to have a soothing effect on me.

Yes, I will keep at it. It is a sad and sorry thing to have to expose something that you once thought was authentic, in support of the truth and universal principles of yoga, when in fact the only truth found there was Yogani's truth.

I will never forget Yogani's argument in support of mantra repetition versus breath meditation. He said, once the breathing stops you have nothing left to focus on, whereas if you are doing mantra repetition and the breathing stops, you can still do the mantra!!! Not only did he not understand that Buddha's Anapanasati is not soley about the breath, but he didn't understand that with breath meditation eventually nimittas (signs) appear, which you then switch your attention to. And, when you focus on the nimitta and penetrate it, it takes you to samadhi/jhana.

The other point is that you can only do so much of mantra repetition before the medulla tires and tries to shut off, whereas, like Alan Wallace says, you can meditate for hours on the breath. The other point is that mantra repetition is the mind effortfully creating a form, creating a thought or a subvocalization. It takes effort. That effort can prevent you from going deeper. When the nimitta appears, it does so naturally, without effort. The same goes for the breathing. Breathing occurs on it's own so you can remain a passive observer. Mantra repetition activates the lower tan tien and sends out spurts of chi/prana/winds. The two techniques are totally different. That is why Alan Wallace says that you can't use mantra to still the mind ala shamatha. And, it's very hard to overload while doing breath meditation because the out-breath is a natural vent for excess energy.

 

I know you weren't looking for any lessons on Anapanasati, sorry..

 

How did people solve spiritual differences in the past? They went to war. They killed millions of people in the name of their religion. Stupid to have to die only to be reborn and have to go through growing up all over again, isn't it?

 

Here, I will sing you a song.. in the key of B:

 

Row row row your boat, gently down the stream,

Merrily, merrily merrily merrily,

Life is but a dream..

 

TI

 

 

Thanks for the reply T_I! I'm no technician when it comes to breathing/mantra/colour meditations (I'd say JB has to be the guy for the breath stuff) but it does sound to me like you know what you're talking about.

 

Yes I know it's tough being restricted in who you may and may not communicate with (not that this has ever happened to me online, but it has in other offline conflictual circumstances and I found that very sad).

 

Man, I guess going off to live in a cave in the mountains is sometimes a really good idea:-)

 

It is 'funny' (as in not at all funny) that people from different path forms would kill each other over those very forms intended to help them liberate themselves (including in part from religions BTW) but the latter actually leads me to ponder the idea that some forms are not at all liberating, or they're not unless done 'just so, just this much' and how much that happens to be is variable for all kinds of reasons.

 

I can't speak to reincarnation, unfortunately.

[JustARandomPanda]

I was thinking a bit about the request to comment on the book etc and I figured that was no real big deal as IME people that produce stuff and promo it online often leverage their immediate friends/acquaintances (sp?) to 'Like' or comment on it. So AYP is using what has become 'pretty regular' online marketing techniques and I suppose had I ever authored anything I'd be there promoting it a lot and asking people I know to help promote it.

 

You don't know the half of it! These days there are COMPANIES that aid no-name authors and musicians in getting sales by spiking sites that allow reviews. One guy sold 1 million copies of his self-published ebook on Amazon after he paid a company to spam Amazon with over 300 5 star reviews. It's become such a common marketing tactic that the New York Times ran a story about it.