Namdrol's Apology and some insight on rising above Sectarianism

[C T]

Sure there is. Ignorance can be bliss. Until it isn't.

That kind of bliss is built around false premises, so its not real bliss as such. Like fool's gold... only looks good on the surface.

[Fū Yue]

Your body has its knowledge. Your body knows in fact much more than your do about how to operate itself. If you get on a bike your body knows how to ride it without your head going step by step how to operate it. Whether you are conscious of that or not is your choice.

 

Your energies have their knowledge and patterns. You can see how it reverts to its knowledge when you interact with others or when you begin to become more conscious of your energetic patterns. Strong sensations such as lust come from an energetic movement more than your head. People who are not as aware of this aspect attribute it as intuition.

 

So does your emotions and feelings. They carry memories and knowledge of their own to function. You saying that knowing is in your head is probably a big problem in itself because you have only seen that dimension of yourself. Your being has tremendous layers to it that's unexplored. The head is just a part of what constitutes your experience.

 

Your body is your mind.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Actually, if each time a seasoned biker gets on a bike in a totally mindful fashion, its similar to learning to ride all over again. And its good, because then one does so in a completely conscious fashion. Accidents usually happen when people do things on auto mode.

 

One can choose to be more conscious even of those things that one thinks ought to have become habitual responses. In fact, it is those precise things that one ought to exercise even more mindful attention over. How else can one rectify one's being to be free from habitual tendencies and behavioral responses?

You asked me where else knowing occurs. So I gave three examples.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Your body is your mind.

Oh really? Btw, I'm not using mind as Mind, or some over encompassing awareness. If you are going to say mind is everything, then the word is no longer meaningful

 

I'm using mind as your analytical mind, the brain to be more specific, the linguistic mind. C T said "head."

Edited July 19, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

That kind of bliss is built around false premises, so its not real bliss as such. Like fool's gold... only looks good on the surface.

Yeah. And that's what I think of your soothed mind.

[C T]

Yes, so the system and the teacher you choose to adopt for such occasions is important. As for do-it-yourself retreats, my guess is that only applies when you are certain a technique will require that much focus and intensity to be accomplished. But that requires confidence about the instructions.

In my experience, the instructor/instructions are secondary. Its the individual that matters most. Two trainees under the same guide in the same retreat can come away with different levels of realizations -- one can ride the wave to greater shores, the other could well drown. They both entered the retreat with great confidence in their own beliefs and swear allegiance to their guru. Hehe... life is like this.

[Lucky7Strikes]

In my experience, the instructor/instructions are secondary. Its the individual that matters most. Two trainees under the same guide in the same retreat can come away with different levels of realizations -- one can ride the wave to greater shores, the other could well drown. They both entered the retreat with great confidence in their own beliefs and swear allegiance to their guru. Hehe... life is like this.

Of course.

[C T]

Yeah. And that's what I think of your soothed mind.

Thats the whole point behind why i entered this silly discussion... you and i dont know if my mind is really 'soothed' until death reaches me, isnt it? I can make all the claims of being free and liberated and what not, but when death finally approaches -- thats the crunch to really see if all these time have i been deluding myself or have i really overcome the thought-based, ignorance-based duality of birth and death.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Thats the whole point behind why i entered this silly discussion... you and i dont know if my mind is really 'soothed' until death reaches me, isnt it? I can make all the claims of being free and liberated and what not, but when death finally approaches -- thats the crunch to really see if all these time have i been deluding myself or have i really overcome the thought-based, ignorance-based duality of birth and death.

And my point was why can't you see that now?

[C T]

And my point was why can't you see that now?

And my point is that it can be seen, but not by a 'you/i', because where there is a 'you/i' then it follows that there is 'birth/death', and all the rest. Birth/death are the two shadows of a self, each present at once, not one first, then the other.

[Simple_Jack]

Even those who are guided thru one year retreats have 'crashed' after completing it, so its not like guided retreats offer any sort of guarantee against any negative post-retreat happenings. It gets even dicier when people attempt the 'do-it-themselves' route. The great thing about Dzogchen is that one gets tools on how to utilize/transmute those energies that abound during the crashes to aid in awakening. Its like the greater the crash, the more awakened one can get, that kind of way.

Could you elaborate on these "tools?" It's not the usual trekcho instructions is it? Doesn't "Vivid Awareness" discuss any of this or one of Dudjom Lingpas books? Do you know of any material that describes this (assuming its not just more trekcho instructions?)

[Seth Ananda]

I seem to recall a central Dzogchen teaching being:

 

Rest in Natural great peace.

 

 

Contemplate for a minuet the correlations between 'Rest' and 'Soothed'.

 

Now contemplate this...

 

 

"Pleasure is timelessly free, free in the evenness that is the true nature of phenomena.

 

Pain is timelessly free, free in the uniform spaciousness of the ground of being.

 

Neutral sensations are timelessly free, free in dharmakaya,

equal to space.

 

Purity is timelessly free, free in the emptiness of underlying purity.

 

Impurity is timelessly free, free in the supreme state of total freedom."

 

~ "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" by Longchen Rabjam

 

 

 

Sounds very soothed to me... what is there to get in the way of each experience as it comes? What is there to be agitated or tense?

 

 

 

~Natural Meditative Stability~

 

Awakened mind is by nature primordially pure.

 

The true nature of phenomena is such that there is nothing to discard or adopt,

 

nothing that comes or goes, nothing to achieve by trying.

 

Rather, the sun and moon of utter lucidity arise

 

when one rests naturally in the spacious expanse that is the true

 

nature of phenomena.

 

~ "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" by Longchen Rabjam

 

:wub:

[Jeff]

I seem to recall a central Dzogchen teaching being:

 

Rest in Natural great peace.

 

 

Contemplate for a minuet the correlations between 'Rest' and 'Soothed'.

 

Rest = Surrender (or let go)

 

Soothed = gone (or just noted)

 

 

Now contemplate this...

 

 

"Pleasure is timelessly free, free in the evenness that is the true nature of phenomena.

 

Pain is timelessly free, free in the uniform spaciousness of the ground of being.

 

Neutral sensations are timelessly free, free in dharmakaya,

equal to space.

 

Purity is timelessly free, free in the emptiness of underlying purity.

 

Impurity is timelessly free, free in the supreme state of total freedom."

 

 

Or as a direct example, Buddha would say "Anger is dropped." Thoughts arise or flow by, it is "your" choice on whether to focus on them and give them energy.

 

[C T]

 

Sounds very soothed to me... what is there to get in the way of each experience as it comes? What is there to be agitated or tense?

 

 

~Natural Meditative Stability~

 

Awakened mind is by nature primordially pure.

 

The true nature of phenomena is such that there is nothing to discard or adopt,

 

nothing that comes or goes, nothing to achieve by trying.

 

Rather, the sun and moon of utter lucidity arise

 

when one rests naturally in the spacious expanse that is the true

 

nature of phenomena.

 

~ "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" by Longchen Rabjam

 

:wub:

 

Excellent reminders, Seth, as always. Gratitude!

 

As Padmasambhava remarked once, "Do not seek to cut the root of phenomena, cut the root of the mind." In Tibet, they say mind is the king responsible for everything -- kun je gyalpo -- the universal ordering principle. Buddha said, "Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine. Whoever realizes this has realized all the teachings."

[xabir2005]

From what xabir posts: He does seem to have experience of the form and formless jhanas and is able to demonstrate certain siddhis.

In my years of experience with him, yes I would say that is true, but I would not want to discuss openly those instances where he demonstrated siddhis that I've known, he probably wouldn't be too happy.

 

Also he privately hinted about his experiences with siddhis but refuses on a few occasions to disclose them in details openly (he did disclose some of his experiences with another friend, and I only get to hear indirectly, also I had some experiences/encounters with his siddhis), but stated many years ago that he will write a book on his experience with siddhis before he dies (don't know when or if that will even happen). Anyway, he is a very reclusive person, and getting more reclusive than ever (I asked him and confirmed that he is trying to withdraw from all activities and would prefer to avoid any more connections with people whether with business or spiritual interests), and he rejected a number of people who sincerely wanted him to be their spiritual teacher. So anything that might attract unnecessary attention to him may be unwanted.

 

He also informed me that despite his experiences with siddhis, he has no interest speaking with those shamatha practitioners who were cultivating them, he was only interested in discussing with wisdom practitioners and how non-local events relate and help in development of wisdom... so he does not want to advertise some of his experiences lest it invites unwanted attention and interest from the wrong crowd. It can also lead to a misdirection for those immature where instead of getting to know our true nature and practice the path to liberation, we become more attached instead (he warned me that siddhis can cause more attachments when one visits 'other realms' of existence and lacks wisdom so gets attached to those realms).

 

The only article by him that even briefly mentions about his experience with siddhis (which he calls non-local events, i.e. clairvoyance, clairaudience, mind-reading etc which transcends limitations of locality) and past lives in my blog is this: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html

 

 

As for knowledge of past lives, karma and such... my friend Simpo who is another student of Thusness was far more willing to talk about them in details based on his experiences.

Edited July 19, 2012 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

In my years of experience with him, yes I would say that is true, but I would not want to discuss openly those instances where he demonstrated siddhis that I've known, he probably wouldn't be too happy.

 

Also he privately hinted about his experiences with siddhis but refuses on a few occasions to disclose them in details openly (he did disclose some of his experiences with another friend, and I only get to hear indirectly, also I had some experiences/encounters with his siddhis), but stated many years ago that he will write a book on his experience with siddhis before he dies (don't know when or if that will even happen). Anyway, he is a very reclusive person, and getting more reclusive than ever (I asked him and confirmed that he is trying to withdraw from all activities and would prefer to avoid any more connections with people whether with business or spiritual interests), and he rejected a number of people who sincerely wanted him to be their spiritual teacher. So anything that might attract unnecessary attention to him may be unwanted.

 

He also informed me that despite his experiences with siddhis, he has no interest speaking with those shamatha practitioners who were cultivating them, he was only interested in discussing with wisdom practitioners and how non-local events relate and help in development of wisdom... so he does not want to advertise some of his experiences lest it invites unwanted attention and interest from the wrong crowd. It can also lead to a misdirection for those immature where instead of getting to know our true nature, we become more attached instead (he warned me that siddhis can cause more attachments when one visits 'other realms' of existence and lacks wisdom so gets attached to those realms).

 

The only article by him that even briefly mentions about his experience with siddhis (which he calls non-local events, i.e. clairvoyance, clairaudience, mind-reading etc which transcends limitations of locality) and past lives in my blog is this: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html

 

 

As for knowledge of past lives, karma and such... my friend Simpo who is another student of Thusness was far more willing to talk about them in details based on his experiences.

The siddhis simply show what he is capable of and how much he understands the realm beyond the body. Realization is a type of siddhi. But I'm more interested in what he knows besides his views on the nature of reality as of this moment. What does he know about his own being, and the material world, its energies, the after-life, etc.

 

My guess is his knowledge is very much incomplete so he doesn't share anything in those terms.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

 

Excellent reminders, Seth, as always. Gratitude!

 

As Padmasambhava remarked once, "Do not seek to cut the root of phenomena, cut the root of the mind." In Tibet, they say mind is the king responsible for everything -- kun je gyalpo -- the universal ordering principle. Buddha said, "Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine. Whoever realizes this has realized all the teachings."

Can you answer Simple Jack's question? I'm curious as well.

[Lucky7Strikes]

And my point is that it can be seen, but not by a 'you/i', because where there is a 'you/i' then it follows that there is 'birth/death', and all the rest. Birth/death are the two shadows of a self, each present at once, not one first, then the other.

Ok....so why can't it be seen without you/I right now instead of waiting until death?

[Simple_Jack]

I seem to recall a central Dzogchen teaching being:

 

Rest in Natural great peace.

 

 

Contemplate for a minuet the correlations between 'Rest' and 'Soothed'.

 

Now contemplate this...

 

 

"Pleasure is timelessly free, free in the evenness that is the true nature of phenomena.

 

Pain is timelessly free, free in the uniform spaciousness of the ground of being.

 

Neutral sensations are timelessly free, free in dharmakaya,

equal to space.

 

Purity is timelessly free, free in the emptiness of underlying purity.

 

Impurity is timelessly free, free in the supreme state of total freedom."

 

~ "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" by Longchen Rabjam

 

 

 

Sounds very soothed to me... what is there to get in the way of each experience as it comes? What is there to be agitated or tense?

 

 

 

~Natural Meditative Stability~

 

Awakened mind is by nature primordially pure.

 

The true nature of phenomena is such that there is nothing to discard or adopt,

 

nothing that comes or goes, nothing to achieve by trying.

 

Rather, the sun and moon of utter lucidity arise

 

when one rests naturally in the spacious expanse that is the true

 

nature of phenomena.

 

~ "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" by Longchen Rabjam

 

:wub:

Thanks Seth for posting this. I remember reading through someone else's copy at one time. I also remember that it was being sold at amazon.com, at an outrageous price. Which is why I never bought it. Oh, well.

[Simple_Jack]

[Seth Ananda]

The siddhis simply show what he is capable of and how much he understands the realm beyond the body. Realization is a type of siddhi. But I'm more interested in what he knows besides his views on the nature of reality as of this moment. What does he know about his own being, and the material world, its energies, the after-life, etc.

 

My guess is his knowledge is very much incomplete so he doesn't share anything in those terms.

Hmm Interesting questions... I think I get where you are coming from...

 

I heard a Dzogchen teacher say something along the lines of Rigpa takes only a second to realize, but a life time to stabalize...

 

If I am right, you are saying something like "Ok so I have dropped into the present moment, and see the open perfection, and transience of things as they are right now, and frankly whats the big deal?"

 

I went through this as well. Especially after meeting Norbu's students. I didn't feel any attainment at all from them. Then I would see Vippashna practitioners and other serious meditators who had that samahdic buzz to them, and a sense of Insight into things, even if only slight...

They at least seemed like they were getting 'somewhere'...

 

Then that quote I heard clicked into place. Rigpa will always be Rigpa, no matter what level of insight or how penetrating ones view of existence actually is.

 

Its like a slow burn technology, it only takes a second to get, but in the stabilizing of it, all the other cool stuff will start to happen.

 

For me the reason is that, once ones mind is resting continuously in the Natural state, ones mind is focused [sort of] in the present, and that is shamatha practice, but spread out over as long as it took to get there and over the rest of your life.

Shamatha reveals the Siddhis, or external Nimmitas, which include non local consciousness and all that other stuff.

Also it is Vippashna practice [in a non conceptual way] in that Insight will be slowly sinking in from Rigpa, into the mess of delusion we 'seem' to carry... So each moment appears as a magical illusory display... Thats Emptiness and Impermanence being viewed, but rather than doing it on a cushion its taking a life time to unfold...

 

I really like this approach as I have a busy life, and it gives me something to practice through the day which has tangible results for me - more relaxed, more enjoyment of the moment...

 

Yet I too sometimes struggle with questions about the path... Stabilizing Rigpa is no easy feat. For that reason I am picking up the Soto Zen practice at a nearby community, as their injunction of 'just sit' is very in alignment with Dzogchen philosophy. I will do as many of their retreats as I can till I can until I am fortunate enough to be able to do a Dzogchen retreat.

 

And I will still do other studies and support practices from the 'lower' Yanas where I feel naturally called.

 

I don't know if any of this was even close to your concerns, but regardless, Best wishes on your path

[C T]

Ok....so why can't it be seen without you/I right now instead of waiting until death?

Because the clear light is brightest/most luminous during that bardo phase. If there is steadfast recognition, whatever appears then is immediately released/dissolved without effort. Spontaneously. Those who are not practiced enough will be carried away by all the displays, thinking still in dualistic modes. Those who train now to recognize mind essence, getting into the habit of not being distracted by mind arisings, technically should be able to remain in this sort of steadfast mental poise as death nears, but its hard to tell for sure because many are able to disguise their (lack of) accomplishments for the mind is full of deceptiveness. This is why i said earlier that the only way to determine whether a person's spiritual practice has been fruitful or fruitless is to observe how he or she deals with the onset of that bardo. Dzogchen, in part, aids the practitioner to recognize mind essence -- and retreats are, in many ways, to help stabilize this recognition. Imagine doing hundreds of thousands of mantras, yidam practices and prostrations... these are all tools for transforming the mind, with the noble aim of uprooting even the subtlest habitual tendencies for self-deception.

Edited July 20, 2012 by C T

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hmm Interesting questions... I think I get where you are coming from...

 

I heard a Dzogchen teacher say something along the lines of Rigpa takes only a second to realize, but a life time to stabalize...

 

If I am right, you are saying something like "Ok so I have dropped into the present moment, and see the open perfection, and transience of things as they are right now, and frankly whats the big deal?"

 

I went through this as well. Especially after meeting Norbu's students. I didn't feel any attainment at all from them. Then I would see Vippashna practitioners and other serious meditators who had that samahdic buzz to them, and a sense of Insight into things, even if only slight...

They at least seemed like they were getting 'somewhere'...

 

Then that quote I heard clicked into place. Rigpa will always be Rigpa, no matter what level of insight or how penetrating ones view of existence actually is...

Maybe...we'll all see what happens down the road. We're all a bit blind at this point.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

Because the clear light is brightest/most luminous during that bardo phase. If there is steadfast recognition, whatever appears then is immediately released/dissolved without effort. Spontaneously. Those who are not practiced enough will be carried away by all the displays, thinking still in dualistic modes. Those who train now to recognize mind essence, getting into the habit of not being distracted by mind arisings, technically should be able to remain in this sort of steadfast mental poise as death nears, but its hard to tell for sure because many are able to disguise their (lack of) accomplishments for the mind is full of deceptiveness. This is why i said earlier that the only way to determine whether a person's spiritual practice has been fruitful or fruitless is to observe how he or she deals with the onset of that bardo. Dzogchen, in part, aids the practitioner to recognize mind essence -- and retreats are, in many ways, to help stabilize this recognition. Imagine doing hundreds of thousands of mantras, yidam practices and prostrations... these are all tools for transforming the mind, with the noble aim of uprooting even the subtlest habitual tendencies for self-deception.

These are all textual knowledge. All beliefs. Hopeful beliefs. If at the point of death some other phenomena happens you'd be totally lost. Talk about a soothed mind! You have all this in your mind you are hoping will happen. What if it doesn't? Now your path is entirely dependent on an idea in your mind of the future.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

These are all textual knowledge. All beliefs. Hopeful beliefs. If at the point of death some other phenomena happens you'd be totally lost. Talk about a soothed mind! You have all this in your mind you are hoping will happen. What if it doesn't? Now your path is entirely dependent on an idea in your mind of the future.

My Mahayana teacher had four NDEs this life and reported the phases in how each sense consciousness disappears until there is left the Clear Light, and how one could get lost. His descriptions sound rather similar to those in the Bardo teachings, even though he did not read Tibetan texts. He also talked about how he read from other people's nde reports that they get mistaken notions of the light and are unclear what is happening and got lost in the process due to their lack of prior practice and experience. Yet he is totally clear of the whole process.

 

So anyway... my point is that the bardo teachings may not be a mere theory for everyone. Some people may have had intimate knowledge from meditation and NDEs to know this process, how it happens, and not just once, but many times, maybe hundreds or thousands of times.

 

Many masters who was able to stabilize in the clear light would simply abide in the state of Thugdam (or in my Mahayan teacher's terminology, the state of Ji Guang or queiscent light), or clear light, after death... for some period of time, before another condition arise and one takes birth (but at least not in an uncontrollable karmic ripening but perhaps more in line with one's bodhicitta intentions). I personally do not have intimate knowledge of bardos, but there are those teachers that do and made similar statements (even cross traditions, like my Mahayana teacher who did not read Vajrayana texts on bardo), who do speak from experience.

 

On the thug-dam:

 

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

 

Thrangu Rinpoche:

 

"...What will benefit the individual at the time of death? If a practitioner has been able to gain some understanding of the nature of the mind by developing mindfulness and awareness and has been able to see how the mind works and is able to establish mental stability, this practice while alive will be very beneficial during the bardo. In the bardo mindfulness and awareness of the mind’s activities is important and stability of mind is also very beneficial for bardo. When the mind is separated from the body during the bardo, it experiences a quality of naked awareness. Without meditation practice, we will not be able to recognize what is happening to us nor understand the arising appearances. With the development of stable meditation of Shamatha and the insight of Vipashyana meditation, we will be able to recognize what is occurring through clarity of the mind. We can then enter into a state of meditation at death. When great practitioners die, they are able to enter the state called thug-dam and consequently have control over death. In this state of meditation the body remains warm and the cells of the body don’t start to dissolve. These are signs that a great practitioner has entered a slate of meditation at death and is able to voluntarily remain in that state..."

Edited July 20, 2012 by xabir2005