Namdrol's Apology and some insight on rising above Sectarianism

[xabir2005]

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Edited July 20, 2012 by xabir2005

[rex]

Thanks Seth for posting this. I remember reading through someone else's copy at one time. I also remember that it was being sold at amazon.com, at an outrageous price. Which is why I never bought it. Oh, well.

 

All the more outrageous when the publisher is still selling at a reasonable price:

 

http://www.tibetantr...Publishing.html

[Seth Ananda]

All the more outrageous when the publisher is still selling at a reasonable price:

 

http://www.tibetantr...Publishing.html

Isn't it...

And they are such amazing books too.

[C T]

These are all textual knowledge. All beliefs. Hopeful beliefs. If at the point of death some other phenomena happens you'd be totally lost. Talk about a soothed mind! You have all this in your mind you are hoping will happen. What if it doesn't? Now your path is entirely dependent on an idea in your mind of the future.

Textual knowledge? Beliefs?

 

Not entirely.

 

Everything that happens at death is simply a magnification of all the gross and subtle 'little deaths' people can observe each moment if they choose to. Each in and out breath is a cycle of a miniature bardo, if you will. Those who practice effectively with their breath meditation get to establish the ground for the clear light to arise, while those who do not have the capacity or are not taught this, or simply take the breath for granted, cannot ever grasp the opportunity to establish the habit of 'small liberations' that these mindful awareness practices (with the breath) can present. The accumulative effects of these 'small liberations' will lead to bigger things... With breath steadied, mindful attention becomes effortless. If you think its textbook stuff, try it and see.

 

And, as a reminder, we all know that mind is clearest just before deep sleep, right? Same thing. No hope involved, simple observation will show this.

Edited July 20, 2012 by C T

[Lucky7Strikes]

My Mahayana teacher had four NDEs this life and reported the phases in how each sense consciousness disappears until there is left the Clear Light, and how one could get lost. His descriptions sound rather similar to those in the Bardo teachings, even though he did not read Tibetan texts. He also talked about how he read from other people's nde reports that they get mistaken notions of the light and are unclear what is happening and got lost in the process due to their lack of prior practice and experience. Yet he is totally clear of the whole process.

 

So anyway... my point is that the bardo teachings may not be a mere theory for everyone. Some people may have had intimate knowledge from meditation and NDEs to know this process, how it happens, and not just once, but many times, maybe hundreds or thousands of times.

 

Many masters who was able to stabilize in the clear light would simply abide in the state of Thugdam (or in my Mahayan teacher's terminology, the state of Ji Guang or queiscent light), or clear light, after death... for some period of time, before another condition arise and one takes birth (but at least not in an uncontrollable karmic ripening but perhaps more in line with one's bodhicitta intentions). I personally do not have intimate knowledge of bardos, but there are those teachers that do and made similar statements (even cross traditions, like my Mahayana teacher who did not read Vajrayana texts on bardo), who do speak from experience.

Yes, your Mahyana teacher didn't have to wait until death to find out, he just went ahead didn't he? It's not a theory for him. I think you are missing what I'm getting at. I'm not saying these experiences are unreal or just in books.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Textual knowledge? Beliefs?

 

Not entirely.

 

Everything that happens at death is simply a magnification of all the gross and subtle 'little deaths' people can observe each moment if they choose to. Each in and out breath is a cycle of a miniature bardo, if you will. Those who practice effectively with their breath meditation get to establish the ground for the clear light to arise, while those who do not have the capacity or are not taught this, or simply take the breath for granted, cannot ever grasp the opportunity to establish the habit of 'small liberations' that these mindful awareness practices (with the breath) can present. The accumulative effects of these 'small liberations' will lead to bigger things... With breath steadied, mindful attention becomes effortless. If you think its textbook stuff, try it and see.

 

And, as a reminder, we all know that mind is clearest just before deep sleep, right? Same thing. No hope involved, simple observation will show this.

Everything that happens at death? Have you gone through death beforehand to make comparisons with it to these "little deaths"?

 

And has this "clear light" arisen in you? You seem to have so much knowledge about all this, yet I doubt you have experienced a small fraction of what you believe is supposed to happen. What you have here is a mindfulness exercise using the breath. What bigger things have these "small liberations" lead you to? More mindfulness? Ok. But let's not bullshit ourselves here. That's all you have, just being more mindful. It doesn't mean "little deaths" or some understanding of "everything that happens at death" or some supposed "clear light." You just believe it will get you there...how long have you been doing this? Has it gotten you any closer? (I'm surprised doing mindful practice makes you question where else "knowing" happens besides the head).

 

Miniature bardo! Come. on. "Try it and see"....why don't you try it and see if suddenly "everything that happens at death" become apparent when breathing in and out. I believe your sense for poetics have clouded you from any practical understanding.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[C T]

Everything that happens at death? Have you gone through death beforehand to make comparisons with it to these "little deaths"?

 

And has this "clear light" arisen in you? You seem to have so much knowledge about all this, yet I doubt you have experienced a small fraction of what you believe is supposed to happen. What you have here is a mindfulness exercise using the breath. What bigger things have these "small liberations" lead you to? More mindfulness? Ok. But let's not bullshit ourselves here. That's all you have, just being more mindful. It doesn't mean "little deaths" or some understanding of "everything that happens at death" or some supposed "clear light." You just believe it will get you there...how long have you been doing this? Has it gotten you any closer? (I'm surprised doing mindful practice makes you question where else "knowing" happens besides the head).

 

Miniature bardo! Come. on. "Try it and see"....why don't you try it and see if suddenly "everything that happens at death" become apparent when breathing in and out. I believe your sense for poetics have clouded you from any practical understanding.

 

Its apparent there is no longer any reasonable purpose to continue the discussion.

[Lucky7Strikes]

 

Its apparent there is no longer any reasonable purpose to continue the discussion.

In my opinion, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

 

What you have here is dreamy nonsense strewn with spiritual jargon and "knowledge" compiled from here and there with very little direct experience. You have experiences with basic mindfulness exercise (that very well could lead you somewhere, I'm not saying it can't) but from it you have derived an entire story about bardos, clear light, the after-life, liberation, small liberation, small bardos, and more ridiculous fascinations.

 

This is bad. This type of spirituality is everywhere in Western circles. The whole new age movement is basically wishful interpretations of spiritual ideas and over glorification of the mundane, and stems from the inability to distinguish what is belief/conjecture and what is true knowledge.

 

And I am as guilty for doing this for a period of time with Xabir, Vaj, TCO, and others. But the taobums has been very watered down from the first time I joined because of this type of intellectual spirituality that gets us no where.

 

Edit: I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit harsh, but a bit of straight talk instead of abstractions would be appreciated. Sectarianism arises because people begin to have a clash of beliefs and speculations instead of means to honestly examine what one knows and what one doesn't know. In this case, I really think you are unwilling to assess your own limitations.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[C T]

In my opinion, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

 

What you have here is dreamy nonsense strewn with spiritual jargon and "knowledge" compiled from here and there with very little direct experience. You have experiences with basic mindfulness exercise (that very well could lead you somewhere, I'm not saying it can't) but from it you have derived an entire story about bardos, clear light, the after-life, liberation, small liberation, small bardos, and more ridiculous fascinations.

 

This is bad. This type of spirituality is everywhere in Western circles. The whole new age movement is basically wishful interpretations of spiritual ideas and over glorification of the mundane, and stems from the inability to distinguish what is belief/conjecture and what is true knowledge.

 

And I am as guilty for doing this for a period of time with Xabir, Vaj, TCO, and others. But the taobums has been very watered down from the first time I joined because of this type of intellectual spirituality that gets us no where.

 

Edit: I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit harsh, but a bit of straight talk instead of abstractions would be appreciated. Sectarianism arises because people begin to have a clash of beliefs and speculations instead of means to honestly examine what one knows and what one doesn't know. In this case, I really think you are unwilling to assess your own limitations.

Its no wonder the older generation of Tibetan masters refused to open up the teachings to simply anyone who requested them.

 

Since you appear confused, there is really no point in going further or else this may lead to unpleasant exchanges, as evidenced in the past on numerous occasions.

 

Please, as a final note, dont make 'clear light' into some sort of super-mystical state... its not. And i am saying this just for the purpose of clarification. 'Clear light' is simply a term given to those moments when one 'recognizes' without any traces of conceptualization of that which is being recognized. Its something that is ever-present -- see it for what it is, and one is free from that precise imprint, fail to see it, and that same 'seeing' takes shape as thoughts, concepts, feelings, formations, and so on, from the very subtle to actual manifestation in the grosser states.

 

From the Dalai Lama: "With respect to identifying the Clear Light in the Great Perfection, when for instance, one hears a noise, between the time of hearing it, and conceptualizing it as such and such, there is a type of mind devoid of conceptuality but nevertheless not like sleep or samadhi, in which the object is a reflection of this entity of mere luminosity and knowing. It is at this point that the basic entity of the mind (clear light) is identified."

These are not mere speculations. They are observable facts, but if you want to dismiss them because it does not agree with your current investigations, then i am happy to let it go without any hesitation, because either way, whether i speak from my own experiences (which you will say does not coincide with actual teachings and is therefore a jumble of new age nonsense) or quote traditional texts (which you will then say is nothing more than parroting some old, outdated scrolls and therefore invalid), there seems to be no potential to forward this matter, hence we might as well drop this discussion. Funny you should deem this approach of yours as some kind of 'straight talk'.

Edited July 21, 2012 by C T

[Jeff]

Thank you C T for your words and wisdom.

 

[Lucky7Strikes]

Its no wonder the older generation of Tibetan masters refused to open up the teachings to simply anyone who requested them.

 

Since you appear confused, there is really no point in going further or else this may lead to unpleasant exchanges, as evidenced in the past on numerous occasions.

 

Please, as a final note, dont make 'clear light' into some sort of super-mystical state... its not. And i am saying this just for the purpose of clarification. 'Clear light' is simply a term given to those moments when one 'recognizes' without any traces of conceptualization of that which is being recognized. Its something that is ever-present -- see it for what it is, and one is free from that precise imprint, fail to see it, and that same 'seeing' takes shape as thoughts, concepts, feelings, formations, and so on, from the very subtle to actual manifestation in the grosser states.

 

From the Dalai Lama: "With respect to identifying the Clear Light in the Great Perfection, when for instance, one hears a noise, between the time of hearing it, and conceptualizing it as such and such, there is a type of mind devoid of conceptuality but nevertheless not like sleep or samadhi, in which the object is a reflection of this entity of mere luminosity and knowing. It is at this point that the basic entity of the mind (clear light) is identified."

These are not mere speculations. They are observable facts, but if you want to dismiss them because it does not agree with your current investigations, then i am happy to let it go without any hesitation, because either way, whether i speak from my own experiences (which you will say does not coincide with actual teachings and is therefore a jumble of new age nonsense) or quote traditional texts (which you will then say is nothing more than parroting some old, outdated scrolls and therefore invalid), there seems to be no potential to forward this matter, hence we might as well drop this discussion. Funny you should deem this approach of yours as some kind of 'straight talk'.

No one is making "clear light" into anything. You brought it up. I've only noticed how you have made a fascination from that term linking it to a broader story of sorts involving words like bardos, liberation, little deaths, and so on.

 

In fact, clear light was brought up because you spoke about its possible function in the so called "bardo" states, writing with some convictions as to what will happen in these states and that the only way to truly measure someone's spiritual progress was upon death.

 

Is this an "observable fact" for you as it was for Xabir's Mahayana teacher? Or are they speculations learned from spiritual texts?

 

I will not dismiss anything you say based on some teachings. That is opposite of what I'm trying to do here. But I will ask you to clarify what you know from experience and what you think you know but don't actually have a clue about except in others' words.

 

BTW, as a small pointer amidst this, if you have experience of luminosity, then I'm surprised you asked where knowing is besides the head, because precisely luminosity is unfiltered knowing beyond the head.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

... if you have experience of luminosity, then I'm surprised you asked where knowing is besides the head, because precisely luminosity is unfiltered knowing beyond the head.

This caught my attention. Just this is worthy of a (another) discussion.

[Lucky7Strikes]

@ C T

 

A similar exchange between us took place earlier didn't it? From a post you wrote:

 

Problem is exactly this: people think there's so so (sooo) much to figure out. Actually, what 'things' are there to be figured out? In the process of dismantling and re-assembling one's head-mind so much precious time is lost. Just drop it, drop everything, a little each time, especially those ideas that lead one to believe that one is making progressive inroads and getting somewhere finally, a destination perhaps worthy of note, but its all nonsense. Go visit the terminally ill, speak with them, look into their eyes, hold hands with them, listen to how they breathe, and see what life is all about. Puts a lot of things into perspective. Then, if we are wise enough, we might learn a little about priorities, as well as how to sensitize oneself to face one's deepest fears, and then keep going at it, again and again and again, until death is finally understood. This is the only key to freedom -- not those ideas and concepts that need figuring out.

 

So I asked you what you knew about death. To which you replied:

 

That when it happens is extremely ambiguous. And also, those who focus too tight on getting healthy and staying healthy are the ones who get hit hardest when they realize time's up. Just recently, my sis-in-law was admitted to hospital for some condition undiagnosable by her GP. She is 27. Then, 2 days ago, a good friend, perfectly healthy 22-yr old law student, suddenly had an epileptic seizure. Talk about perspective.

 

I'm ok with this. Your practice is dropping everything and you think figuring things out is nonsense, so letting things be is your practice and then a soothed mind. I genuinely think this is a great practice. But let's not kid ourselves and write "death is finally understood" (followed by..."death is extremely ambiguous"). Or the bardo states. Or the function of "clear light" in the bardo states. Or about little deaths or little bardos. Or about liberation (if by that you mean the buddhist sense of liberation from karmic rebirths). Or about this being the only key to freedom. What a grandiose statement to make!

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Jeff]

]

 

I'm ok with this. Your practice is dropping everything and you think figuring things out is nonsense, so letting things be is your practice and then a soothed mind. I genuinely think this is a great practice. But let's not kid ourselves and write "death is finally understood" (followed by..."death is extremely ambiguous"). Or the bardo states. Or the function of "clear light" in the bardo states. Or about little deaths or little bardos. Or about liberation (if by that you mean the buddhist sense of liberation from karmic rebirths). Or about this being the only key to freedom. What a grandiose statement to make!

 

If you don't mind a question... Have you been into the light (not "clear light" as described above) and back?

 

[Simple_Jack]

Can you answer Simple Jack's question? I'm curious as well.

I don't think he is, due to samaya....Becoming 'really good at (dualistic) mindfulness' can be helpful for when subconscious crap get's stirred up to the conscious level.

 

IMO, the teachings on trekcho won't truly be able to be practiced until the 'path of seeing.' It won't truly be effortless until the 'path of meditation.' Seriously, bro: Good luck to you next time, when similar experiences start to surface due to progress in your cultivation.

[Simple_Jack]

All the more outrageous when the publisher is still selling at a reasonable price:

 

http://www.tibetantr...Publishing.html

Cool. Thanks for the link!

[Lucky7Strikes]

If you don't mind a question... Have you been into the light (not "clear light" as described above) and back?

 

No.

 

But that's not the point of this discussion is it?

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[rex]

Isn't it...

And they are such amazing books too.

Yeah I'm always suspicious when books appear on Amazon as available only through Market Place sellers. The books are real treasures.

 

Cool. Thanks for the link!

You're welcome!

[Jeff]

No.

 

But that's not the point of this discussion is it?

 

No, but it relates relative to perspective on death or bardo states. I have talked independently with three different people who have been at the stage of "building the golden body" and were "graced" with going in and returning from the light. Each, coming from different traditions, described with different words knowing the same thing about death or bardo states. Hence, my belief that it is possible to know before death of the body.

 

[Lucky7Strikes]

No, but it relates relative to perspective on death or bardo states. I have talked independently with three different people who have been at the stage of "building the golden body" and were "graced" with going in and returning from the light. Each, coming from different traditions, described with different words knowing the same thing about death or bardo states. Hence, my belief that it is possible to know before death of the body.

 

Cool! Yes, I also believe that it is possible.

 

Can you share their accounts? And was one of them a Kunlun practitioner?

Edited July 23, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Jeff]

Cool! Yes, I also believe that it is possible.

 

Can you share their accounts? And was one of them a Kunlun practitioner?

 

It is not my place to share their experiences, but I will ask them.

 

No on the Kunlun specific... In each case, they started on a path, but became more "non-path specific". One started Buddhist, one Taoist/yoga, one energy/magic/yoga...