Expressing/ pleasure in taoism..

[skydog]

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?

What is a bad man but a good man's job?

When some things are seen as good

Other things become bad

Success is as dangerous as a failure

Hope is as hollow as fear"

 

Tao te ching

 

But also

 

Express yourself completely but remain quiet

 

Ive been in peace all day

but then I got a job, my normal reaction to this is " yes, ego boost, I am better than this person that person, I am normal, I am respectable, I can make money, I can buy this, the future, this is good, bla bla bla"

 

but Is reminding myself of the tao te ching and sort of silencing this pleasure, wrong?

[Green Tiger]

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?

What is a bad man but a good man's job?

When some things are seen as good

Other things become bad

Success is as dangerous as a failure

Hope is as hollow as fear"

 

Tao te ching

 

But also

 

Express yourself completely but remain quiet

 

Ive been in peace all day

but then I got a job, my normal reaction to this is " yes, ego boost, I am better than this person that person, I am normal, I am respectable, I can make money, I can buy this, the future, this is good, bla bla bla"

 

but Is reminding myself of the tao te ching and sort of silencing this pleasure, wrong?

 

You got a job? Congratulations!!!

 

They're tough to come by these days.

[Brian]

You got a job? Congratulations!!!

 

They're tough to come by these days.

 

 

Indeed! That was my first thought when reading this post.

 

Congratulations!!!

[Taomeow]

Ive been in peace all day

but then I got a job, my normal reaction to this is " yes, ego boost, I am better than this person that person, I am normal, I am respectable, I can make money, I can buy this, the future, this is good, bla bla bla"

 

but Is reminding myself of the tao te ching and sort of silencing this pleasure, wrong?

 

Pleasure is the only thing in the world that is not wrong, but it's not a thought or an idea, it's a feeling. Gloating, which is an idea rather than a feeling (since it is not systemic and does not involve a harmonious resonance between the body, the mind and the spirit), is not pleasure, it's a defense against pain, in the form of enjoying the pain of deprivation in others so as to blunt your own. These "others" never end though -- there's always someone who is more than you and has more than you. If your gauge for determining whether you're experiencing pleasure or pain is a comparison between yourself and those "others," the pain never ends, and the painkiller relief of gloating, in the form of finding someone who is less and has less, can only be temporary until you run into someone who is more and has more. Does this make sense to you?

[skydog]

Pleasure is the only thing in the world that is not wrong, but it's not a thought or an idea, it's a feeling. Gloating, which is an idea rather than a feeling (since it is not systemic and does not involve a harmonious resonance between the body, the mind and the spirit), is not pleasure, it's a defense against pain, in the form of enjoying the pain of deprivation in others so as to blunt your own. These "others" never end though -- there's always someone who is more than you and has more than you. If your gauge for determining whether you're experiencing pleasure or pain is a comparison between yourself and those "others," the pain never ends, and the painkiller relief of gloating, in the form of finding someone who is less and has less, can only be temporary until you run into someone who is more and has more. Does this make sense to you?

 

Sort of

 

Misunderstandings are likely to take plac with the use of words nevertheless I will do my best.

 

Gloating I guess is a sort of "now Im higher up than you, (not lower than you), now im higher up than some others (not lower than some others) and your happiness should not depend on comparison with those around you because gloating is finding relief that others are not doing as well as me and that Im not at the bottom. Sort of confusing actually need some clarification of the practicalities of this kind of thinking.

 

I was thinking more in terms of thinking some things are good and bad and believing them. If I think getting a job is good (because not having this is bad, not having a job is bad, having a job here is worse than here) then I will believe not having a job is bad, not having these possessions is bad, it is worse to have a job in this place than here. Say I get a job in this luxury hotel I think its good, but what if I dont get paid/ have a major accident/ get bullied (lol) then this would be considered bad or believed to be worse than getting paid or being healthy or being spoken to nicely. What if I have a major accident but then go on to get massive claims by suing some and recover fairly quickly (this would be considered good) but then say if with this money I use it to drink alchohol and get drunk every night and party (some people may consider this good) some people may consider this bad, say I go and get drunk every night then end up dating a hot woman ( which is considered good) because not dating one is considered bad then the hot woman is abusive/breaks my heart which is considered bad rather than the good of not being abused, but maybe through this abuse/broken heart, I become enlightened which some people consider good rather than bad, then through this enlightenment it means I behave in dangerous ways which leads to family members being killed which is considered bad rather than good but say through these members being killed it leads to mass enlightenment which is considered good rather than bad which then leads to lack of productivity considered bad rather than good.

 

lol I was just amusing myself with this story but kind of true.

 

Also I guess fighting with oneself is against taoism so I have a feeling I can either philosophise out of the belief or philosophise out of the belief believing im going with the natural flow of peace, or I can accept the feeling and not intefere with it just allowing it.

 

Hmm..

[Taomeow]

Sort of

 

Misunderstandings are likely to take plac with the use of words nevertheless I will do my best.

 

Gloating I guess is a sort of "now Im higher up than you, (not lower than you), now im higher up than some others (not lower than some others) and your happiness should not depend on comparison with those around you because gloating is finding relief that others are not doing as well as me and that Im not at the bottom. Sort of confusing actually need some clarification of the practicalities of this kind of thinking.

 

I was thinking more in terms of thinking some things are good and bad and believing them. If I think getting a job is good (because not having this is bad, not having a job is bad, having a job here is worse than here) then I will believe not having a job is bad, not having these possessions is bad, it is worse to have a job in this place than here. Say I get a job in this luxury hotel I think its good, but what if I dont get paid/ have a major accident/ get bullied (lol) then this would be considered bad or believed to be worse than getting paid or being healthy or being spoken to nicely. What if I have a major accident but then go on to get massive claims by suing some and recover fairly quickly (this would be considered good) but then say if with this money I use it to drink alchohol and get drunk every night and party (some people may consider this good) some people may consider this bad, say I go and get drunk every night then end up dating a hot woman ( which is considered good) because not dating one is considered bad then the hot woman is abusive/breaks my heart which is considered bad rather than the good of not being abused, but maybe through this abuse/broken heart, I become enlightened which some people consider good rather than bad, then through this enlightenment it means I behave in dangerous ways which leads to family members being killed which is considered bad rather than good but say through these members being killed it leads to mass enlightenment which is considered good rather than bad which then leads to lack of productivity considered bad rather than good.

 

lol I was just amusing myself with this story but kind of true.

 

Also I guess fighting with oneself is against taoism so I have a feeling I can either philosophise out of the belief or philosophise out of the belief believing im going with the natural flow of peace, or I can accept the feeling and not intefere with it just allowing it.

 

Hmm..

Far as I've been able to discern so far, taoist cultivation (and some other rare modalities) can teach one to tell a feeling that is real and human (ren) from a pseudofeeling that is the outcome of numbing out and distorting real human feelings (becoming bu ren). Nothing is wrong with "just allowing" feelings. The devil is in being able to have them, instead of the bu ren substitutes...

[skydog]

Far as I've been able to discern so far, taoist cultivation (and some other rare modalities) can teach one to tell a feeling that is real and human (ren) from a pseudofeeling that is the outcome of numbing out and distorting real human feelings (becoming bu ren). Nothing is wrong with "just allowing" feelings. The devil is in being able to have them, instead of the bu ren substitutes...

 

I can see the sense in that. if peace is spontaneous then it is naturally occuring, however if one tries to force it, because one thinks "peace/bliss is good" then this ruins the flow ( I guess ) or possibly it can be done in a way that is naturally occuring since ones desire to be at bliss is also natural but on the other hand desire hinders reality. I think trying to live life without any desire at all is somewhat insane Taoists say if they have one desire to attain the tao then they do but if they have many they cant attain any of them. Their needs to be some structure? Also interesting Im noticing sometimes I am in peace or bliss or emptiness and Im like "yes this is good, Im advancing, im going to be enlightened soon (haha) Im better than others. Whereas if Im in a bad mood my mind is doing the opposite "this is bad, your not doing something right, your worse than those happy people, you cannot find ego completion in the future through enlightenment (wow just realising this thought)

 

However if I feel joy/excitement but my mind is saying ( you feel joy/excitement that means you believe this is good. But is it really, what about non duality, what is higher than temporary pleasure...peace/bliss, your current excitement is an ignorance of reality that you dont know/cant say what is good or bad) then one struggles to ignore this mind But also I cannot feel excitement if I am in emptiness meditation...it goes back to peace/bliss excitement is a sort of belief that what Im doing might be great and be a real ego boost but I must avoid doing something/I am scared of this not happening.

 

I guess one can allow natural feelings, while keeping non dualism in mind?

Edited July 17, 2012 by sinansencer