forestofclarity Posted July 22, 2012 The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Even under anesthesia the yin mind/spirit continues to observe, it just observes the void. The yin mind/spirit is eternal, it is our subconscious mind, it retains memory, it observes reality, it is passive, female, made of energy like gravity or magnetic in nature, it does not move of it's own accord, but rather passively pulls things to it, the yin mind/spirit cannot understand or know emotion, or make choices, it's purpose is observation and memory. The yang spirit is mortal, it is our conscious mind, it is responsible for emotion, choice, personality, ego, identity, etc. It is active male, and made of energy like sunlight or electricity, it actively moves of it's own accord. The yang spirit is our lifeforce, it animates us. At point of death the yang mind/spirit separates and goes back into the environment. It is the interaction between the yin and yang minds/spirits which allow us to be alive. If the two can be fused as one before death, the mind will continue to function as it did in life, the more energy that can be channeled into developing the spirits before death the more human like the spirit will be. If the two are not fused together rebirth will occur when the yin mind is attached to a new yang spirit and observes a new life as such. The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding. Edited July 22, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted July 22, 2012 from a buddhist point of view, the 2nd turning of the wheel of dharma taught basically that consciousness was not eternal, that it arose and passed, and even the big mind is interpreted as being subject to cycles. So mahayana generally takes as its maxim this interpretation of reality but some schools, like vajrayana, who work mostly from the 3rd turning, say that consciousness is in fact eternal because it is uncreated. They say that it exists spontaneously in the void so it never arose and will never pass. So even if an individuals consciousness enters some kind of null state, which is rare even in deep sleep, but nonetheless possible given the right conditions, mind as such or consciousness as a phenomena is actually eternal. any hardcore buddhist scholars out there who are inclined to correct any misapprehension on my part can suck eggs. doh! oops wait, i mean feel free to point out the inevitable errors in my understanding, i appreciate it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 22, 2012 So, yeah, I have an opinion. No thing, including nothing, is eternal. I know of only one consciousness and that is the consciousness of living things. When a thing dies, and all things will die, there is no longer consciousness for that thing. To the question, was there consciousness before there were any living things?, my answer would be an absolute "No". Will there be consciousness after all living things have died? Again, "No". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) With that pattern of thinking Should we start digging our graves now? Why this desire to survive? this desire for life? A cruel joke? All this being to become nothing... why not remain nothing? There was always consciousness... if there wasn't there would be none now. Always was...always will be. But what is it that is conscious? aware... what is awareness? what is awareness... where does it come from? where does it go? is it anywhere? or...nowhere? or... I don't know. All of me wants progression / continuation /higher order /understanding / freedom None of me...what ever that is... wants to die..in the fullest sense... If the latter is true... shall we all blink out of existence this instant... and leave all the pain behind? perhaps that would be better? easier... why struggle for nothing? I would argue that living things are a result of consciousness... inanimate matter... where ever that came from... did not suddenly develop awareness... living beings are the result of consciousness... and everything is consciousness...and always will be. Edited July 22, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 22, 2012 This just feeds your head with useless thoughts. Go see for yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 22, 2012 With that pattern of thinking Should we start digging our graves now? Hehehe. Apparently we have a difference of opinion regarding this subject. No, I am not a nihilist. Hang in there and enjoy it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted July 22, 2012 hmm yes - opinions haha I agree with lucky 7... lets see Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 22, 2012 hmm yes - opinions haha I agree with lucky 7... lets see Yes, I am going to wait as long as I can before finding out if there is consciousness after death. My goal is 116 years. I'm doing pretty good so far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Disabled Not Broken Posted July 22, 2012 The Immortals, are not, Mortals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted July 22, 2012 The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding. You might find this helpful: - http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/the_experience_of_deep_sleep If that doesn't do it for you, if you go here: - http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/#questions and search the page for the term "sleep" (CTRL F in firefox), you'll find a few other questions relating to your hypothesis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted July 22, 2012 The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding. What you consider consciousness is only objective consciousness. There is another consciousness on which these objects are superimposed. That is eternal and unbroken...like the the space itself is. This is evident in the gap between thoughts...when there are no thoughts do you have consciousness or not? And to elaborate as to why Consciousness is eternal (further) -- When one is aware of the connectedness of all things (like ruffles on the same fabric or waves of the same ocean), unless consciousness is not eternal and continuous, the phenomena that are externally disparate (like the life and death of a bug or a dog or an elephant or a tree -- which chronologically are of different lengths and may have existed in different times) cannot seem connected. There are many clever arguments made for and against it by seemingly opposing camps (like advaita vedanta and Buddhists and within various systems within vedanta or buddhism themselves). But my stupid mind cannot grasp the complexity of these arguments. I know from experience that the simplest explanation is most likely the best explanation in the grand scheme of things. And the simplicity of the theory of the interconnectedness of all consciousness, reinforced in the gap between thoughts is evidence (in my humble opinion). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted July 22, 2012 The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding. What is your definition of consciousness. Are you talking about consciousness as awareness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevincann Posted July 22, 2012 The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia. Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding. What I have observed is that awareness needs matter of some grade (gross or 'spiritual') to give it something to work with; i.e to become consciousness. When everything happens at once (the fullness inherent in pure awareness), there is no communication, no wisdom, no love, no joy. This is why the "One substance" spins off all those sparks; that vast mirror-ball sea of little diluted copies of Itself, the vast sea of Atman; the primordial substance made possible by the cyclic arcs of time. Consciousness is awareness struggling to become whole. This is my observation. Kev Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 22, 2012 And the simplicity of the theory of the interconnectedness of all consciousness, reinforced in the gap between thoughts is evidence (in my humble opinion). See? Even you and I get to disagree now and then. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted July 23, 2012 To respond to a few points raised: What is consciousness? I'm taking consciousness to mean awareness, sentience, knowing. I'm open to other definitions. Do I have an experience of deep sleep? I do not. Do others? For me, sleeping is full of various states of consciousness, but at some point, all awareness disappears. The feeling of continuity of sleep is caused, perhaps, by forgotten states of consciousness (dreams, quasi-waking, etc.) than by a continuity of awareness. This also happens at a certain point during certain meditations. Awareness becomes so attenuated, then it is gone. I understand the gaps between thoughts. But what about the gaps between consciousness? My waking consciousness appears to be the same--- the subject appears to be the same each day. Yet I cannot say it is continuous. <br><br>What you consider consciousness is only objective consciousness. There is another consciousness on which these objects are superimposed. That is eternal and unbroken...like the the space itself is. This is evident in the gap between thoughts...when there are no thoughts do you have consciousness or not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fizix Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) There is only One consciousness, its true name cannot be named, and it transcends all duality, all language, it has no beginning, nor end, it animates all living things, it is the One Dreamer, it precedes matter, dreams matter, dreams us. When will we wake up? Edited July 23, 2012 by fizix 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 23, 2012 So, yeah, I have an opinion. No thing, including nothing, is eternal. I know of only one consciousness and that is the consciousness of living things. When a thing dies, and all things will die, there is no longer consciousness for that thing. To the question, was there consciousness before there were any living things?, my answer would be an absolute "No". Will there be consciousness after all living things have died? Again, "No". mind is some-thing or all-things, no-thing is not limited to mind yet it knows mind beyond any knowing of mind and is happy and the True. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 23, 2012 There is only One consciousness, its true name cannot be named, and it transcends all duality, all language, it has no beginning, nor end, it animates all living things, it is the One Dreamer, it precedes matter, dreams matter, dreams us. When will we wake up? Have you experienced this? Did you experience my consciousness as "One" with my own? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 23, 2012 Before you can really have this conversation we need to decide what we mean by consciousness. Are we talking about quantum consciousness, the akashic records, or simply the fact that we know we exist. In the case of quantum consciousness and the akashic records, then they are eternal, and may have existed through the lives of many universes, in the case of our own consciousness, well that obviously ends when we die. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 23, 2012 Before you can really have this conversation we need to decide what we mean by consciousness. Are we talking about quantum consciousness, the akashic records, or simply the fact that we know we exist. In the case of quantum consciousness and the akashic records, then they are eternal, and may have existed through the lives of many universes, in the case of our own consciousness, well that obviously ends when we die. Aaron Can you elaborate on quantum consciousness or "akashic" records? Do you have experience with them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seth Ananda Posted July 23, 2012 For a debate like this I like the direct path style of Krishna Menon. Consciousness is the basic fact of our entire experience. Thinking, Feeling, perceiving, believing, personing {acting upon the sense that we are a person}, and anything else we can think of, all happen within consciousness. So Consciousness is the actual ground of everything. What does Consciousness do? It experiences... and that is it. Waking life, is an experience within consciousness of lots of stuff happening. Dreaming is an experience within consciousness of other stuff happening. Deep sleep or unconsciousness or death are an experience of nothing happening till after death experiences start. Consciousness is prior to and behind all experience, and is completely untouched by those experiences. having ones leg chopped off, having an orgasm, waking up in the morning, disproving consciousness is eternal or having ones head blown off... all these things happen within a consciousness that was already there, that does not change or alter in the least, no matter what it is that goes on... We are not actually even a person. Being a person is also just an experience next to lots of other experiences within consciousness... What is consciousness? Who knows? Knowing itself is an experience within consciousness. Including meditation stages of 'oneness' with consciousness... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fizix Posted July 23, 2012 Have you experienced this? Did you experience my consciousness as "One" with my own? There is no one, nothing that has not experienced this. It is just to what degree, frequency, vibrational level/awareness that we vary, though we all eventually return to the Source. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) There is no one, nothing that has not experienced this. It is just to what degree, frequency, vibrational level/awareness that we vary, though we all eventually return to the Source. So have you experienced oneness with all animate beings? And seen the "Source" you will be returning to? Like, are you able to shift you vibrational level to a degree outside yourself to include others to know that we are One dreamer? Edited July 23, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted July 23, 2012 Consciousness is Knowing/Being. It's that which is reading these words. It's nature is Love/Peace/Happiness. It's usually conceptualised as being personal/individual - but this is just an unexamined belief. If Consciousness was limited and personal, it would have a boundary or edge. Can you actually find the boundary or edge of "your" Consciousness? Is it not strange that you cannot? Remember that this is quite subtle and it can take many years to investigate this question properly and for the previous false belief to fade away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
