End Game

[deci belle]

deci's posts from this thread have been removed and appear in End Game (director's cut) above.

Edited August 8, 2012 by deci belle

[mYTHmAKER]

[Marblehead]

Nice.

[deci belle]

merciii, you two vous!! I wrote female heart; not feminine, so i didn't mean it in a chauvinistic way~ ok?!!❤

[Marblehead]

merciii, you two vous!! I wrote female heart; not feminine, so i didn't mean it in a chauvinistic way~ ok?!!❤

Hehehe. I actually had to read that part twice to understand that but still my naughty mind kept playing.

 

And we all know that the game is never over, right?

[deci belle]

[Marblehead]

[Protector]

Rolling initiative

[deci belle]

This song is about the strategy winding down the remains of lifetimes; waiting out the momentum of residual karmic traces.

 

Eventually, the vestiges of psychological kinesis run out and the finite path leading to the timeless aperture opens whereby the limit of the limitless is penetrated.

 

Here is where the auspicious object hovers in space; liquid pearl flowing, subsuming as the image appears, approaching out of the depths.

 

This is chaos, this is the cauldron; the elixir is ripe, the medicines complete.

 

Though it is still not the time of stepping over eternity; the dharma wheel has been turned.

 

The vision of changeless changing has no equal.

[Marblehead]

WoW! You got a little mystical on me. Hehehe.

 

Chaos is an important concept in my understanding of Taoism. It is even important in a learning theory I have heard about.

 

"Penetrating to limit of the limitless." What a concept!

 

And I once again state: Change is the only constant in the universe.

[gatito]

WoW! You got a little mystical on me. Hehehe.

 

Chaos is an important concept in my understanding of Taoism. It is even important in a learning theory I have heard about.

 

"Penetrating to limit of the limitless." What a concept!

 

And I once again state: Change is the only constant in the universe.

 

Doesn't there have to be something unchanging to perceive the change?

[deci belle]

Doesn't there have to be something unchanging to perceive the change?

 

Nice!!❤

[Marblehead]

Doesn't there have to be something unchanging to perceive the change?

Not at all. All there needs be is a rememberance of what was. But note that sometimes the changes are so slow that they are unnoticable during the lifetime of a human.

[gatito]

Not at all. All there needs be is a rememberance of what was. But note that sometimes the changes are so slow that they are unnoticable during the lifetime of a human.

 

OK. Let's give part of this hypothesis provisional credence: -

 

Starting from what you seem to be saying; there's a past and a present and they appear to differ.

 

There has to be something common to both that hypothetical past and to this (undeniable) present that Knows both that past and this present in order to compare them and to Know the difference.

 

Another way to look at this is there has to be something that Knows the memories that arise (the Subject to which or in which the objects arise)?

 

You surely can't deny that you exist and that you are aware? If you don't deny that, there is therefore Self-evident Knowing/Being (i.e. Consciousness - which I'm using as synonymous with Awareness)?

[Marblehead]

OK. Let's give part of this hypothesis provisional credence: -

Okay, you tricked me into this discussion. Hehehe.

 

Subjective and objective.

 

Objectively, everything changes.

 

Subjectively, many things (appear to) remain the same.

 

But the universe does not work according to our (humans) wishes and desires. It operates according to its own principles (ziran or TzuJan).

 

Yes, I exist - the present. Yes, there was a time when I did not exist - the past. Yes, there will be a time when I no longer exist - the future.

 

Regretfully, time is linear. But the processes are cyclical.

 

As far as these changes that take place, no one needs to observe them in order for them to be. A tree falls in the forest and no human hears it fall. Was there a sound of it falling? Of course there was because the sound is energy vibration and it exists even though no human detected it. (The squirrel that had its house in it darn sure did hear it though!)

 

And I suggest that no, there does not have to be anything that "knows" the changes are happening. Changes were constantly taking place on this planet before it was in a condition for any forms of life to be on it.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Marblehead

[gatito]

Okay, you tricked me into this discussion. Hehehe.

 

Subjective and objective.

 

Objectively, everything changes.

 

Subjectively, many things (appear to) remain the same.

 

..................................

 

Oh yes!!! . I'm so devious that I even tricked myself into tricking you!

 

Let's dance then :-

 

Subject and Object to start off with if that's OK with you? Raincheck on the rest but I promise to come back to it later - if you can be bothered with it.

 

"Objectively everything changes."

 

Yes, so let's label objects "unreal" for the time being - because there's no evidence that they're permanent in your own experience. (If that's OK at this stage?)

 

"Subjectively, many things (appear to) remain the same."

 

That really intrigues me. From what I see, only objects appear to change. The witnessing Consciousness (Awareness) doesn't, so let's look at that a bit more closely?.

 

It strikes me that perhaps we're talking about slightly different things here or we may have some unexamined assumptions and we may need to refine our definitions before moving forward?

[Marblehead]

Oh yes!!! . I'm so devious that I even tricked myself into tricking you!

 

Let's dance then :-

 

Hehehe. Yes, let's do.

 

Subject and Object to start off with if that's OK with you? Raincheck on the rest but I promise to come back to it later - if you can be bothered with it.

 

No problem. As far as I know I will be around for a while.

 

"Objectively everything changes."

 

Yes, so let's label objects "unreal" for the time being - because there's no evidence that they're permanent in your own experience. (If that's OK at this stage?)

 

No, I can't do that. It is only the objective that is truely real, without question. However, I do agree that none of this objective reality is permanent. (Everything changes, ya' know.)

 

"Subjectively, many things (appear to) remain the same."

 

That really intrigues me. From what I see, only objects appear to change. The witnessing Consciousness (Awareness) doesn't, so let's look at that a bit more closely?.

 

I think that this is where we are going to find our unsurmountable differences. (Hehehe. I just had to say it that way.)

 

"The witnessing consciousness." What a phrase! You do remember that I am a Materialist? Consciousness, IMO, requires a functioning brain of some sort.

 

The universe is about 13.7 billion years old. Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Life, in its crudest form began about 3.5 billion years ago. Complex life started about 1 billion years ago. There is no known intelligent life anywhere in the universe except on our planet.

 

What created consciousness prior to 1 billion years ago? Yet, the universe existed for about 12.7 billion years without any form of consciousness. And all things that existed during those years we in a constant cycle of creation and destruction. None of it was or is permanent.

 

I have never seen one bit of proof that there is consciousness outside a functioning brain. Therefore, for me, I can speak only to the conscious brain of we humans, who first started evolving into what we are no more than 4 million years ago. WoW! We are young compared to the age of the universe. How did it ever manage to survive without us being able to explain it?

 

It strikes me that perhaps we're talking about slightly different things here or we may have some unexamined assumptions and we may need to refine our definitions before moving forward?

 

I just gave you an example of where I stand. Yes, perhaps we are looking at this whole thing from different perspectives. But if we try we can find commonly understood words with which to communicate.

 

And I just know that the game isn't over yet. Hehehe.

[Stosh]

Id like to see your discussion continue

but

1)

there is someting which doesnt change

The rules that the universe operates by never change

the rules are inherent in the nature of space itself

 

2)

Time is not actually linear it is progressive sequential and based on perspective

if it exists ,as described generally.

 

3)

that which is 'real' subjectively such as emotions is real in that sense

that which is 'real' objectively such as material objects is real in that

sense (though they can be as temporary as mirth)

denying reality to either spectrum is inaccurate at best

and saying all is unreal is also inaccurate because the term 'all'

disallows discernment.

 

I hope that my intrusion is helpful more than distracting

 

Stosh

PS

 

Decibelle , are the lines in your post #9 related to the avatar next to them ?

the words seem to fit ( nice poem?)

[gatito]

Hehehe.

 

 

No, I can't do that. It is only the objective that is truely real, without question. However, I do agree that none of this objective reality is permanent. (Everything changes, ya' know.)

 

 

 

I think that this is where we are going to find our unsurmountable differences. (Hehehe. I just had to say it that way.)

 

"The witnessing consciousness." What a phrase! You do remember that I am a Materialist? Consciousness, IMO, requires a functioning brain of some sort.

 

The universe is about 13.7 billion years old. Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Life, in its crudest form began about 3.5 billion years ago. Complex life started about 1 billion years ago. There is no known intelligent life anywhere in the universe except on our planet.

 

What created consciousness prior to 1 billion years ago? Yet, the universe existed for about 12.7 billion years without any form of consciousness. And all things that existed during those years we in a constant cycle of creation and destruction. None of it was or is permanent.

 

I have never seen one bit of proof that there is consciousness outside a functioning brain. Therefore, for me, I can speak only to the conscious brain of we humans, who first started evolving into what we are no more than 4 million years ago. WoW! We are young compared to the age of the universe. How did it ever manage to survive without us being able to explain it?

 

 

 

I just gave you an example of where I stand. Yes, perhaps we are looking at this whole thing from different perspectives. But if we try we can find commonly understood words with which to communicate.

 

And I just know that the game isn't over yet. Hehehe.

 

OK. Science is an interesting religion but I'm not really interested in belief systems.

 

I've had a sense of the man he doth protest too much methinks about you MH but I'm starting to think that I'm mistaken about that.

 

Are you interested in discussing what all the fuss is about from first-hand (your own) experience because that's when this becomes really interesting (to me anyway )?

 

If you're entrenched in western scientific materialism, the game's over because, in that case, the fat lady's definitely singing in my ear.

[Stosh]

Aww come on! give it a go!

 

materialism would also be incorrect as it denies subjective reality

 

Def

"In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance, and reality is identical with the actually occurring states of energy and matter." wikipedia

 

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Okay, who do I respond to first?

 

I guess I will take them as they came. (Linear time.)

[Stosh]

Okay, who do I respond to first?

 

I guess I will take them as they came. (Linear time.)

Ignore me completely if it makes the thing go!

[Marblehead]

there is someting which doesnt change

The rules that the universe operates by never change

the rules are inherent in the nature of space itself

 

This would be TzuJan which I sometimes speak to however, I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that this do not change over time. If there are multiple universes I would suggest that it is very likely that the rules are different in those different universes. I say that because we have been unable to detect any so far.

 

that which is 'real' subjectively such as emotions is real in that sense

that which is 'real' objectively such as material objects is real in that

sense (though they can be as temporary as mirth)

denying reality to either spectrum is inaccurate at best

and saying all is unreal is also inaccurate because the term 'all'

disallows discernment.

I don't recall suggesting that emotions were not real. I will state here that I believe that they are. I have mentioned on this forum before that I love my emotions.

 

But they become real from the subjective, do they not?

 

I have also mentioned on this forum that we each have our own truths. They are subjective but they are real for the holder.

 

No, I have no intention of reducing everything to particles and waves. Never will I do that.

 

I have also confessed here on this forum that I have my set of illusions and delusions because they allow me to be more at peace when I am on my own property. But I know my illusions and delusions are not real - they are idealistic imaginings.

[Marblehead]

OK. Science is an interesting religion but I'm not really interested in belief systems.

 

I've had a sense of the man he doth protest too much methinks about you MH but I'm starting to think that I'm mistaken about that.

 

Are you interested in discussing what all the fuss is about from first-hand (your own) experience because that's when this becomes really interesting (to me anyway )?

 

If you're entrenched in western scientific materialism, the game's over because, in that case, the fat lady's definitely singing in my ear.

Sure, I love to speak of my personal experiences. I also love to speak of my beliefs, my understandings, and my opinions.

 

Science is not a religion for me. But it does help me understand the objective reality that my senses send to my brain.

 

So where do we go? What is consciousness? What is reality? Objective/subjectivity? Or perhaps beginnings and ends?

[Marblehead]

materialism would also be incorrect as it denies subjective reality

I still can't remember denying the reality of the subjective in the mind of the feholder.