The Significance of Free Will in Spirituality and How It Relates to Popular Ideas of No Agent

[Lucky7Strikes]

I have always struggled with the idea that if there is no-self there is no free will, which seems like the most logical conclusion. And often you will encounter teachings that say, "there is no one, and therefore was no one to choose in the first place." Ideas such as, "there is just things happening with no one there," are abundant.

 

But in direct experience it is not like this. The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why? Because when you believe you are something, such as the body or the mind, you are constantly reacting as that object you identify with. For instance, patterns build up around a mental personal identity and form a personality. When you are engrossed in a personality, an idea of a self stuck to these thought patterns, or in attachment to the body, actions don't arise from a conscious choice, but a conditioned reaction.

 

So the purest way to express free will is when I am perfectly present, and without identification with any "thing" in experience as a self. How can any-"thing" in existence have any choices anyway? It will always be conditioned. But if I begin to see life in it's immediacy, seeing everything as they are, then the choice is true. You are creating a new situation that is not a reaction, but a creation.

 

Note: I'm not saying there is no-self or a Self or a background consciousness or whatever. I am speaking from what I perceive. And from what I perceive, acting with this sense of free will is much more rewarding than convincing yourself there is no free will and only scenery of life happening.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

[xabir2005]

I think creativity and choice does not contradict dependent origination but neither does it become a kind of determinism. Similar to Emergence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

 

So what manifest as an act of creativity, or a choice, is a result of complex conditions including our very "own" thoughts and ideas and patterns. Now these patterns CAN be changed, for example if your mind is always afflicted by anger, by desires, through Buddhism we CAN remove those afflictions, or what Buddha calls the latent tendencies towards craving and aggression and delusion - we can terminate them forever. And there is a path which we can practice and reach that goal, which is the noble eightfold path. So it is not saying 'these conditions are fixed'. They are not determined or fated in the sense that "that's just what is going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it". As Richard pointed out, "Will, freed of the encumbrance of fear and aggression and nurture and desire, can operate smoothly, with actual sagacity."

 

However, thoughts, including intentions, do not manifest as a result of an agent, thinker, controller, it is not independent of causes and conditions*. Everything including intentions and choices are the result of causes and conditions. Those causes and conditions can be changed, however, for were it not able to be changed, there would be no point in practicing anything including Buddhism or spirituality.

 

(Tron: Legacy):

 

Kevin Flynn: The Miracle...You remember. ISOs, isomorphic algorithms, a whole new life form.

Sam Flynn: And you created them?

Kevin Flynn: [Laughs] No, no. They manifested, like a flame. They weren't really, really from anywhere. The conditions were right, and they came into being. For centuries we dreamed of gods, spirits, aliens, and intelligence beyond our own. I found them in here, like flowers in a wasteland. Profoundly naive; unimaginably wise. They were spectacular. Everything I'd hope to find in the system; control, order, perfection. None of it meant a thing. Been living in a hall of mirrors. The isos, shattered it, the possibilities of their root code, their digital DNA. Disease? History! Science, philosophy, every idea man has ever had about the Universe up for grabs. Biodigital jazz, man. The ISOs, they were going to be my gift to the world.

 

 

 

*Check this out: http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide (Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide”)

 

"I wouldn't call it a hostage situation, because thinking about it as a hostage, implies a dualism between your conscious mind and your brain activity. But the conscious mind is encoded in brain activity, it is realized by brain activity, it is an aspect of your brain activity. Also your unconscious brain activity realizes certain aspects of you, it's in harmony with your beliefs and desires. So in most cases it is not going to force you to do something you do not want to do."

Edited July 24, 2012 by xabir2005

[silas]

>>I have always struggled with the idea that if there is no-self there is no free will.... But in direct experience it is not like this. The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why?

 

 

There have been plenty of scientific studies suggesting that free will does not exist, but individually, people do perceive free will - just as you say. The reason is that perceiving free will is necessary, because without that belief, people become selfish, and selfishness does not benefit the species as a whole. This 2011 study confirms the need to believe in free will - EVEN IF it is an illusion:

 

Free Will May Be An Illusion

 

>> if your mind is always afflicted by anger, by desires... we can terminate them forever.... So it is not saying 'these conditions are fixed'. They are not determined or fated in the sense that "that's just what is going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it".

 

In classical Taoism, it is always balance that matters, not too much of this, not too much of that. Even desires have their purpose, because we use them to perceive and navigate the real world, the manifestation of Tao (see this article Recognizing The True Form Of Things). In cases where a person polarizes, the treatment goal would be to restore balance with wu wei training.

Edited July 24, 2012 by silas

[Mokona]

I have always struggled with the idea that if there is no-self there is no free will, which seems like the most logical conclusion. And often you will encounter teachings that say, "there is no one, and therefore was no one to choose in the first place." Ideas such as, "there is just things happening with no one there," are abundant.

 

But in direct experience it is not like this. The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why? Because when you believe you are something, such as the body or the mind, you are constantly reacting as that object you identify with. For instance, patterns build up around a mental personal identity and form a personality. When you are engrossed in a personality, an idea of a self stuck to these thought patterns, or in attachment to the body, actions don't arise from a conscious choice, but a conditioned reaction.

 

So the purest was to express free will is when I am perfectly present, and without identification with any "thing" in experience as a self. How can any-"thing" in existence have any choices anyway? It will always be conditioned. But if I begin to see life in it's immediacy, seeing everything as they are, then the choice is true. You are creating a new situation that is not a reaction, but a creation.

 

Note: I'm not saying there is no-self or a Self or a background consciousness or whatever. I am speaking from what I perceive. And from what I perceive, acting with this sense of free will is much more rewarding than convincing yourself there is no free will and only scenery of life happening.

 

I used to think this way also. The more real spontaneity you add into your life, and passion - the less things will feel that way.

 

Wouldn't you think, that in a work enviroment you couldn't jump up on a desk and kick a computer? You could, free will exists, just act on it. Although you don't have to get yourself in trouble to feel it.

[thelerner]

I generally choose not to get involved in Free Will debates.

 

But

 

If you believe there is no free will, does that change the way you live and make decisions?

[silas]

If you believe there is no free will, does that change the way you live and make decisions?

 

No, not if you practice wu-wei, if you follow Tao currents.

[Stosh]

[Stosh]

 

 

The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why? Because when you believe you are something, such as the body or the mind, you are constantly reacting as that object you identify with. For instance, patterns build up around a mental personal identity and form a personality. When you are engrossed in a personality, an idea of a self stuck to these thought patterns, or in attachment to the body, actions don't arise from a conscious choice, but a conditioned reaction.

 

So the purest was to express free will is when I am perfectly present, and without identification with any "thing" in experience as a self. How can any-"thing" in existence have any choices anyway? It will always be conditioned. But if I begin to see life in it's immediacy, seeing everything as they are, then the choice is true. You are creating a new situation that is not a reaction, but a creation.

 

I think thats very rational and points at the benefit - personal truth

that wu wei is supposed to bestow

But I dont think one needs to not-have a sense of self,per se, just dispose of the

preconditions surrounding the maintenance of the identity-persona we each have

 

for instance, one doesnt have to be serious today because they were serious yesterday

they dont have to protect their feelings because they were told they were shy, etc.

or reenact unconscious scenarios and solutions retained from earlier times.

 

They free themselves up to react to the best of their discernment toward any given

situation rather than corral themselves to a few limited and possibly outdated

choices.

It doesnt make one superhuman, or correct all the time, or flow with some

imaginary tide. It opens your options and enriches your sense of being personally

involved -responsive

Stosh

[eye_of_the_storm]

Can one observe different levels of consciousness within oneself?

 

Sometimes when the ordinary mind/self is quiet... one senses the direction of the superconscious self? Is this the Guru within?

 

This self being an expression of the superconscious? so ordinary mind / this personality is an illusion of sorts... though still an expression of ones superself?

 

like the drop in the ocean kind of thing... though still the ocean? ... though most being oblivious to this? and totally identifying as the ordinary self...?

 

Edited July 24, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Lucky7Strikes]

Me: my understanding of will is rather similar to richard, an entirely impersonal and causal having nothing to do with a thinker, I, or mine, but nonetheless a necessary process of all (empty) body-mind organisms, but nothing to do with a disembodied universal will. it is an intimate thought happening without a thinker as part of a mind-body process.

 

 

[Co-Respondent]: ‘Apperception is awareness without any motive, it is immediate.

[Richard]: ‘I would not say ‘without motive’ ... but it is certainly immediate. It is immediate and direct, unmediated by any feelings whatsoever. The bodily needs are what motivates will and will is nothing more grand than the nerve-organising data-correlating ability of the body and it is will that is essential in order to operate and function ... not a self. Will is an organising process, an activity of the brain that correlates all the information and data that streams through the bodily senses. Will is not a ‘thing’, a subjectively substantial passionate ‘object’, like the self is. Will, freed of the encumbrance of fear and aggression and nurture and desire, can operate smoothly, with actual sagacity. The operation of this freed will is called intelligence. This intelligence is the body’s native intelligence ... and has naught to do with Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti’s disembodied ‘intelligence’. [endquote]

 

 

 

Thusness: Yes...what u hv to understand is how such an interdependent thought becomes isolated and made believed to be independent.

Will is immediate, it's not part of a process, just as presence is not part of a process. I would go as far as to say that presence and free will are inseparable, just as they say emptiness and infinite potential are inseparable in dzogchen. It doesn't belong just to the body and mind. The body and mind just function according to the conditions, more like a machine. But you can alter it. Will is only part of a process when it is a conditioned reaction within the mind and the body. It is certainly not a brain process. I can be outside of by head-mind at will. My brain is within my will and not the other way around.

 

As for your second post, imo, you can't change patterns while admitting that your will is also part of a cause-effect chain. You just develop another pattern at best, which is like changing bad karma to good karma. It's better to just drop karma altogether. Just drop the patterns and live immediately as everything is. Then whatever you do emerges from clarity.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

>>I have always struggled with the idea that if there is no-self there is no free will.... But in direct experience it is not like this. The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why?

 

 

There have been plenty of scientific studies suggesting that free will does not exist, but individually, people do perceive free will - just as you say. The reason is that perceiving free will is necessary, because without that belief, people become selfish, and selfishness does not benefit the species as a whole. This 2011 study confirms the need to believe in free will - EVEN IF it is an illusion:

 

Free Will May Be An Illusion

 

>> if your mind is always afflicted by anger, by desires... we can terminate them forever.... So it is not saying 'these conditions are fixed'. They are not determined or fated in the sense that "that's just what is going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it".

 

In classical Taoism, it is always balance that matters, not too much of this, not too much of that. Even desires have their purpose, because we use them to perceive and navigate the real world, the manifestation of Tao (see this article Recognizing The True Form Of Things). In cases where a person polarizes, the treatment goal would be to restore balance with wu wei training.

This is only if you believe you are limited to the brain organ. Do you make choices just in your head? Because sometimes I choose to use my brain and other times I don't.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I generally choose not to get involved in Free Will debates.

 

But

 

If you believe there is no free will, does that change the way you live and make decisions?

Actually it does! You become like a blob. A wave in the ocean. Until you get smacked up side the head.

[konchog uma]

This is only if you believe you are limited to the brain organ. Do you make choices just in your head? Because sometimes I choose to use my brain and other times I don't.

 

right.

 

even if you resign consciousness to the corner of neural activity, there are neurons in the heart, the gut, and throughout the entire body so the brain is not the end of the road here.

 

and then there is mind, free of brain. i imagine not everyone tested had developed minds, and were mostly stuck in their own heads, as people tend to be (at least in the western world).

 

interesting thread, thanks for posting

 

edited for grammar and punctuation

Edited July 24, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

in my experience there are times when one can exercise free will, and there are times when ones hands are tied so to speak. the fluctuation between the two poles of the spectrum seem to define the experience of humans as far as free will goes.

 

so in my model there is room for both free will and determinism, and some people are more actualized (in free will) while some people are more like blobs, but the seeming contradiction of fate/destiny and free will is not an issue of mutual exclusivity IMO/IME

 

just wanted to throw that out there, its not one way or the other. life i really diverse, complex, and strange. there is room for both free will and determinism

[silas]

Lucky7Strikes>> This is only if you believe you are limited to the brain organ. Do you make choices just in your head? Because sometimes I choose to use my brain and other times I don't.

 

anamatva>> Teven if you resign consciousness to the corner of neural activity, there are neurons in the heart, the gut, and throughout the entire body so the brain is not the end of the road here.

 

 

In classical Taoism, one follows the Tao flows by listening to one's chi, which interacts with both the inner self and the outer world. One listens not only to the brain but to all organs of the body, which respond to internal conditions and to the world by impacting the chi coursing through the body. By listening to one's chi (we connect to it via our center of Te by meditating), one listens to all aspects of the self and the surrounding Tao currents to guide one's way.

[kevincann]

I have always struggled with the idea that if there is no-self there is no free will, which seems like the most logical conclusion. And often you will encounter teachings that say, "there is no one, and therefore was no one to choose in the first place." Ideas such as, "there is just things happening with no one there," are abundant.

 

But in direct experience it is not like this. The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why? Because when you believe you are something, such as the body or the mind, you are constantly reacting as that object you identify with. For instance, patterns build up around a mental personal identity and form a personality. When you are engrossed in a personality, an idea of a self stuck to these thought patterns, or in attachment to the body, actions don't arise from a conscious choice, but a conditioned reaction.

 

So the purest way to express free will is when I am perfectly present, and without identification with any "thing" in experience as a self. How can any-"thing" in existence have any choices anyway? It will always be conditioned. But if I begin to see life in it's immediacy, seeing everything as they are, then the choice is true. You are creating a new situation that is not a reaction, but a creation.

 

Note: I'm not saying there is no-self or a Self or a background consciousness or whatever. I am speaking from what I perceive. And from what I perceive, acting with this sense of free will is much more rewarding than convincing yourself there is no free will and only scenery of life happening.

 

If we were both the One beyond all manifestation, and one of the many sparks of the One acting in concert

to produce manifestation: then we would be both the master and the slave; the maker of will and the recipient

of will. We'd also have nobody to blame but ourselves, for all the pain and confusion we have created together.

We'd see that the 'finger pointed' at 'God' was in fact one finger pointing away and three pointing back

at us; with a thumb pointing straight up for the F* of it.

[Birch]

Are we talking about free will with respect to choices? That's a rabbity-hole right there. I reckon the act of choosing gives one the impression of 'free will'. I read somewhere else that our 'social engineering' friends (aka the 'dark side' of enlightenment) take advantage of this phenomena by setting out the choices 'just so'. But if I go down that line of thought I will upset myself too much to be able to enjoy the rest of my afternoon.

 

I don't know what I believe about free will exactly. I do know from experience that when I'm acting from 'knee-jerk' my choices are different than when I'm acting (or at least I believe I am) from a more 'conscious' position.

[Aaron]

The question of free will always puzzles me. What does it really matter if we have free will or not? does it actually change who (or what) we are on a fundamental way or just how we view ourselves. I think the comment made about feeling like a hostage in regards to free will is apt for many people, they feel that without free will they are a prisoner to destiny, but that's not exactly true.

 

As someone who has felt the immensity of the universe and my own connection to it and everything that exists, what I can tell you is that free will absolutely does not exist and yet it absolutely does exist. Let me explain why both exist as simply as possible.

 

We are programmed to react and act according to what we are, human beings. We have drives and desires that are a result of this programming and it is required programming, otherwise we would not know what to do and what not to. People hate to be compared to computers, but in essence we are like computers, we are in fact what we want computers to be, beings that can learn and adapt to the situations around them, but herein lies the problem we have with making the perfect computer, in order to learn and adapt we must first have a working system that allows us to adapt.

 

Awhile ago the notion of pain being beneficial was mentioned. It was a heated topic, with some saying it wasn't necessary and others saying it was, but what we know from examining people incapable of feeling pain is that they have a hard time living in this world. The absence of pain makes it impossible for them to know when they've pushed their bodies too far and almost invariably they suffer from this condition and find it difficult to live a healthy life or have a healthy body.

 

If we truly had free will, then it seems like everyone could just choose whether or not to feel pain, but that's not how it is, rather we have been programmed with this ability, without our consent, in order to ensure that we can survive. The notion of no choice frightens us, as I've already mentioned, but what we sometimes fail to take into account is that the choice isn't actually an option, in other words the human race would not survive if we had the choice, in fact it would've probably died out before it even began.

 

In the same way simple choices like being kind to another person or not, seem to be a sign of free will, but in actuality, even in this circumstance it is an illusion. Our connection to others, the way we interact with others is always preconceived dependent on how we have learned to respond to certain conditions. The option for free will is reduced every minute we are alive, because everything we experience dictates how we will respond to something in the future. In fact it is the notion of free will that must be dismissed if one is ever to fully understand Tao and the process of harmony, because harmony is not born of free will, but with giving up free will and accepting that certain actions are natural. It is when we try to buck our actual destined action that we bring disharmony to the world. It is going against the way things are meant to occur and trying to find another way, that brings disharmony in our lives.

 

So this is the real gist of it, free will exists, but in exerting free will we are behaving contrary to how we are supposed to behave. When we deny what we have been created to be and decide to be something else, then we are denying the very nature of who we are. The idea of giving up free will and turning our will over to the care of something greater than ourselves seems like it is akin to slavery, but is it?

 

We do not have free will in the sense that we can determine who and what we are, but we do have a limited form of free will when we determine the actions we take. However, how many of us are willing to sacrifice what we want to do, in order to do what is beneficial for others? The Tao Te Ching actually says that this is a requirement for those who would be the caretakers of the world. If we exert free will and put our own desires first, then we are going against the way of nature. Nature hasn't programmed us to be greedy, selfish, or self-absorbed. In fact it programmed us to do the opposite. Our original nature was one dependent on the primary virtues of compassion, self-restraint, and group harmony.

 

The Tao Te Ching says that it was when we abandoned these virtues that we began to depend on morality, laws, and intellect. It is the failure to live according to how we have been designed to live that has caused us to suffer. It is our decision to exert free will that has allowed us to become what we are.

 

So the options we have are to give up free will and trust in our original nature, allowing us to live in harmony with the universe again, or continue to live with the illusion of free will, causing more harm that will ultimately result in the demise of humanity. If anyone has any doubt about this, they need only look at the state of the world.

 

Anyways, I could go on, but I think I'll stop there for now. After all I doubt many people read my posts these days, so no need to waste an inordinate amount of time on something that most likely few people will be interested in hearing anyways.

 

Aaron

Edited July 25, 2012 by Aaron

[Seth Ananda]

some science perspective:

 

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide

 

 

It appears the 'me' parts of the brain reverse engineer why it has 'decided' or 'chosen' to do whatever was already in the process of happening...

 

So there is no real self making decisions and all that, just a figment self taking responsibility for actions that were going to happen anyway, to convince itself of its reality....

 

:lol: :lol:

[Lucky7Strikes]

some science perspective:

 

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide

 

 

It appears the 'me' parts of the brain reverse engineer why it has 'decided' or 'chosen' to do whatever was already in the process of happening...

 

So there is no real self making decisions and all that, just a figment self taking responsibility for actions that were going to happen anyway, to convince itself of its reality....

 

:lol: :lol:

As I wrote above, I believe that's just the brain. In my experience will does not belong to the brain, it can, but usually that is a conditioned reaction in a chain of mind processes from previous thought. Free will is a spontaneous will that arises from being completely present in the moment.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Seth Ananda]

As I wrote above, I believe that's just the brain. In my experience will does not belong to the brain, it can, but usually that is a conditioned reaction in a chain of mind processes from previous thought. Free will is a spontaneous will that arises from being completely present in the moment.

Please describe your experience in great detail, demonstrating clearly when the brain is not involved...

 

and as great claims require great evidence, you should volunteer to be scanned, while 'willing'... That should be very interesting...

Edited July 25, 2012 by Seth Ananda

[Lucky7Strikes]

If we truly had free will, then it seems like everyone could just choose whether or not to feel pain, but that's not how it is, rather we have been programmed with this ability, without our consent, in order to ensure that we can survive. The notion of no choice frightens us, as I've already mentioned, but what we sometimes fail to take into account is that the choice isn't actually an option, in other words the human race would not survive if we had the choice, in fact it would've probably died out before it even began.

 

In the same way simple choices like being kind to another person or not, seem to be a sign of free will, but in actuality, even in this circumstance it is an illusion. Our connection to others, the way we interact with others is always preconceived dependent on how we have learned to respond to certain conditions. The option for free will is reduced every minute we are alive, because everything we experience dictates how we will respond to something in the future. In fact it is the notion of free will that must be dismissed if one is ever to fully understand Tao and the process of harmony, because harmony is not born of free will, but with giving up free will and accepting that certain actions are natural. It is when we try to buck our actual destined action that we bring disharmony to the world. It is going against the way things are meant to occur and trying to find another way, that brings disharmony in our lives.

 

So this is the real gist of it, free will exists, but in exerting free will we are behaving contrary to how we are supposed to behave. When we deny what we have been created to be and decide to be something else, then we are denying the very nature of who we are. The idea of giving up free will and turning our will over to the care of something greater than ourselves seems like it is akin to slavery, but is it?

 

We do not have free will in the sense that we can determine who and what we are, but we do have a limited form of free will when we determine the actions we take. However, how many of us are willing to sacrifice what we want to do, in order to do what is beneficial for others? The Tao Te Ching actually says that this is a requirement for those who would be the caretakers of the world. If we exert free will and put our own desires first, then we are going against the way of nature. Nature hasn't programmed us to be greedy, selfish, or self-absorbed. In fact it programmed us to do the opposite. Our original nature was one dependent on the primary virtues of compassion, self-restraint, and group harmony.

I suggest you try to live with an abandoned free will for a period of time and see if your life falls into harmony.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Please describe your experience in great detail, demonstrating clearly when the brain is not involved...

 

and as great claims require great evidence, you should volunteer to be scanned, while 'willing'... That should be very interesting...

I didn't say the brain isn't involved. Just that the will does not belong to it. My body has a will, doesn't it? When someone pinches you and you have a response, you have a reaction. But if you are present in the moment you can see the situation clearly and respond with a conscious will. For instance you can just feel the pinch without a resultant categorization of it as pain as most people would. That's an immediate and not a preconceived process. If our will was preconceived within the brain all the time, we would not have adequate means to respond to immediate changes in our environment which happen frequently. This is just a logical example.

 

In experience, when you no longer identify with thoughts which are mostly localized in the brain, you realize your head activity can be experienced not as you, but within you. I'd say this is one way to argue that consciousness is not generated from the brain. When this steeping outside happens, I am aware of everything as a whole, including my surroundings as if there is no boundary. It's like I stepped out of a moving vehicle and now I see its pathway totally from above without division between sceneries i would've seen had I been inside the car.

 

The less you identify with any-thing, the more expansive the view becomes. I feel very present and at the same time I feel like there is no I existing in the picture. Again, I'm just sharing an experience. But here I also feel very potent. Like I can really act. And when I act in a very clear states of being, it doesn't feel like I am choosing between possible pathways, but rather creating something entirely new from this immediate world I am aware of. There's an obvious correlation between how unconditioned this act is and how present I am within the moment.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Seth Ananda]

I didn't say the brain isn't involved. Just that the will does not belong to it. My body has a will, doesn't it?

Well it has its wants, desires, and its genetic imperatives...

 

When someone pinches you and you have a response, you have a reaction. But if you are present in the moment you can see the situation clearly and respond with a conscious will.

maybe, but maybe not. Say your particular mind stream has been influenced by material that says you should be present as it gives you more options. Maybe as a result, when you get pinched there is a momentary battle over which conditioning - Present awareness vs body reaction - will be the dominant reaction...

The scans suggest that the 'choice' part happens well after the action to do it had begun...

 

For instance you can just feel the pinch without a resultant categorization of it as pain as most people would. That's an immediate and not a preconceived process.

Really? It may be just which set of impulses are winning in that moment? The Impulse to be present and aware, or some other Impulse...

 

If our will was preconceived within the brain all the time, we would not have adequate means to respond to immediate changes in our environment which happen frequently. This is just a logical example.

Its not that logical. The brain processes at an incredible speed...

 

In experience, when you no longer identify with thoughts which are mostly localized in the brain, you realize your head activity can be experienced not as you, but within you. I'd say this is one way to argue that consciousness is not generated from the brain. When this steeping outside happens, I am aware of everything as a whole, including my surroundings as if there is no boundary. It's like I stepped out of a moving vehicle and now I see its pathway totally from above without division between sceneries i would've seen had I been inside the car.

Many 'people' [or maybe i should call them 'events'] are exposed to these teachings. Only some have thought streams that are ready for whatever reason, to try to adopt these 'new' ways of perceiving, and some do so successfully. Those then 'seem' to have several options available to them in how they react to their world...

 

The less you identify with any-thing, the more expansive the view becomes. I feel very present and at the same time I feel like there is no I existing in the picture. Again, I'm just sharing an experience. But here I also feel very potent. Like I can really act. And when I act in a very clear states of being, it doesn't feel like I am choosing between possible pathways, but rather creating something entirely new from this immediate world I am aware of. There's an obvious correlation between how unconditioned this act is and how present I am within the moment.

Sure it 'feels' like that normally. I won't argue that that is what it 'feels' like.

Except in lucid moments where nondoership or Annata is being very clearly seen.

 

Then it feels like there is just a stream of events happening, and there is no you doing any of it... Weird...