The Significance of Free Will in Spirituality and How It Relates to Popular Ideas of No Agent

[idiot_stimpy]

No, not if you practice wu-wei, if you follow Tao currents.

 

wu-wei practices you

[xabir2005]

Will is immediate, it's not part of a process, just as presence is not part of a process. I would go as far as to say that presence and free will are inseparable, just as they say emptiness and infinite potential are inseparable in dzogchen. It doesn't belong just to the body and mind. The body and mind just function according to the conditions, more like a machine. But you can alter it. Will is only part of a process when it is a conditioned reaction within the mind and the body. It is certainly not a brain process. I can be outside of by head-mind at will. My brain is within my will and not the other way around.

Not only is 'presence' and 'will' inseparable, every event that is so called 'not related to will' is also presence. There is no partial non-duality. Non-duality means everything is the immediacy of presence.

 

What is immediate, is a process, for I have clearly seen that there is no 'presence', or 'will', that is not an activity that arises and ceases. And yet what arises and ceases conditions the next moment. Therefore it is a causal process. What is immediate is the immediate arising and passing, what is immediate doesn't stay. What is immediate is totally interdependent with the entire universe, just like right now I am typing these words, a seamless activity of seeing the screen, hands typing, thoughts popping up (including of course the intention to type this), sound of keyboard, and so on... all happening as a seamless activity of dependent origination. There is no 'controller' at the center doing all these... it is just an activity of seamless interconnectivity.

 

Will is an arising intention, it is a thought. You can never know what the next moment of thought will be. A thought does not 'touch' or 'know' or 'predict' or 'control' the next thought. When the next thought arises, it arises completely unbidden, not as a result of an 'I' or an agent. Yet it does not arise chaotically without a cause. For this moment of thought can condition the next moment of thought, yet it does not control, or predict, what unfolds next.

 

And thought/will is something that is free (though not without causes) - like a wheel - it can turn in any direction, yet the turning does not 'turn' causelessly. There are causes which turns the wheel. So 'will', like a wheel, can be turned into a good and wholesome path (like the noble eightfold path), or it can be turned into an unwholesome path which leads to great suffering. Actions that follow 'bad' will leads to great suffering. Will, mind, intention, is the forerunner of actions, though not itself without causes.

 

Presence (which is simply whatever manifest in all sense doors) arises and ceases, yet it is not 'coming from somewhere' or 'going somewhere'. It is a mere happening without movement. Movement requires duality - an unmoved observer seeing things coming from somewhere, abiding a little, and then 'leaving me'. This is not the true experience of impermanence from a non-dual perspective... and it is seen that reality has always been non-dual and empty of a self. There is just the painting on the water, vividly shimmering and disappearing without a trace.

 

There is no 'I' that can be 'outside head and body', that would imply a someone who can dissociate, and that 'someone' is a delusion. However where out-of-body experience arises (I am not denying these experiences), that too, arises dependent on conditions without a someone. So I am not denying will, or the power of will, or out of body experiences, but an agent.

 

The youtube video is quite interesting.

As for your second post, imo, you can't change patterns while admitting that your will is also part of a cause-effect chain. You just develop another pattern at best, which is like changing bad karma to good karma. It's better to just drop karma altogether. Just drop the patterns and live immediately as everything is. Then whatever you do emerges from clarity.

Good and bad karma caused by craving, and these karma will result in samsara, be it in the lower or higher realms.

 

Action (karma) caused by non-affliction is not susceptible to a karmic result in samsara.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.033.than.html

 

AN 3.33

PTS: A i 134

Thai 3.34; BJT 3.34

Nidana Sutta: Causes

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 2001–2012

 

"Monks, these three are causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

 

"Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

 

"Any action performed with aversion — born of aversion, caused by aversion, originating from aversion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

 

"Any action performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

 

"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and the rain-god would offer good streams of rain. Those seeds would thus come to growth, increase, & abundance. In the same way, any action performed with greed... performed with aversion... performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

 

"These are three causes for the origination of actions.

 

"Now, these three are [further] causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Non-aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Non-delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

 

"Any action performed with non-greed — born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originating from non-greed: When greed is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

 

"Any action performed with non-aversion — born of non-aversion, caused by non-aversion, originating from non-aversion: When aversion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, destroyed at the root, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

 

"Any action performed with non-delusion — born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originating from non-delusion: When delusion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

 

"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and a man would burn them with fire and, burning them with fire, would make them into fine ashes. Having made them into fine ashes, he would winnow them before a high wind or wash them away in a swift-flowing stream. Those seeds would thus be destroyed at the root, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

 

"In the same way, any action performed with non-greed... performed with non-aversion... performed with non-delusion — born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originating from non-delusion: When delusion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

 

"These, monks, are three causes for the origination of action."

A person unknowing: the actions performed by him, born of greed, born of aversion, & born of delusion, whether many or few, are experienced right here: no other ground is found.[1] So a monk, knowing, sheds greed, aversion, & delusion; giving rise to clear knowledge, he sheds all bad destinations.[2]

Notes

 

1.

According to the Commentary, "right here" means within the stream of one's own "selfhood" (attabhava), i.e., one's own chain of rebirth. "No other ground is found" means that the fruit of the action is not experienced by any other person's chain of rebirth.

2.

 

The Commentary notes that this verse refers to the attainment of arahantship, and that an arahant — in reaching nibbana — sheds not only bad destinations, but also good ones.

 

The word "sheds" acts as a "lamp" in this verse — it appears only once, but functions in two phrases, as I have rendered it in the translation. On the use of the lamp as a literary figure of speech, see the Introduction to Dhammapada: A Translation.

 

See also: SN 42.8; AN 3.99.

Edited July 25, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Thusness (February 2006):

 

From a conventional point of view, it is. If we feel, see, hear and think in terms of entity, then it seems that there is a self leaving the body. This is because all along, we experience all phenomenon appearances as solid things existing independently. Such conventional mode of comprehending our meditative experiences masked the true character of these experiences.

 

If we treat consciousness to be an atomic-like-particle residing in our body somewhere, then we are making it as a self too. Do not do that. The true character of Consciousness is not a thing, it does not enter, leave, reside within or outside the body. Clear Luminosity is bonded by karmic propensities, causes and conditions. There is no need for a place within. Yes, there is a mental phenomenon arising but the sensation of entering and leaving is the result of associating it with a self. Just like it is illusionary to see a self succeeding from moment to moment, an entrance and exit is equally illusionary.

 

Mystical experiences are extremely crucial during the journey of enlightenment. Do not discard them unwisely but assign them correct places. These experiences loosen karmic bonds that latent deep down in our consciousness where it is almost impossible to break through ordinary means. It is an essential condition for the awakening of penetrating insight. The main different between non Buddhist and Buddhist practitioners is that transcendental and mystical experiences are not molded into a self but correctly understood and purified with the wisdom of emptiness. This applies true to the Luminous Clarity Knowingness that is non-dual, it is not wrongly personified into Brahman. In perfect clarity, there are no praises for radiance bright, only the Dharma is in sight. The wisdom of emptiness is so deep and profound that even if one has entered the realm of non-dual, he/she will still not be able to grasp its essence in full. This is the wisdom of the Blessed One. The second level of Presence.

 

....

 

(July 2006):

 

...Next is her experience of astral traveling, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that consciousness has left and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS...

[xabir2005]

I can be outside of by head-mind at will. My brain is within my will and not the other way around.

Let me put it this way: there is no brain within my will, nor a will within my brain. In the will is just the (phenomenal appearance of) will, in the brain is just the (phenomenal appearance of) brain - there is no you in terms of that. But whatever manifests are interdependent and causal. Will conditions action, and other factors also condition will.

 

Just like in Bahiya Sutta - in seeing there is just the seen, in hearing just the heard.

 

If there is a container, that implies duality - something (like a subject) containing an object. I have seen that metaphors of container is entirely false experientially, they are only for conventional communication (like when you tell a friend "I am on the first floor" or "I am in ..."). In reality there is no 'I am' nor an 'external environment containing me'. There is just lights, colours, rays, sounds, .... arising without a center or boundary.

 

 

On a sidenote, I just saw this blog post by a friend, it's good: http://thassa.blogspot.sg/2012/07/there-is-running.html

Edited July 25, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

I didn't say the brain isn't involved. Just that the will does not belong to it. My body has a will, doesn't it? When someone pinches you and you have a response, you have a reaction. But if you are present in the moment you can see the situation clearly and respond with a conscious will. For instance you can just feel the pinch without a resultant categorization of it as pain as most people would. That's an immediate and not a preconceived process. If our will was preconceived within the brain all the time, we would not have adequate means to respond to immediate changes in our environment which happen frequently. This is just a logical example.

When an incredibly loud explosion wakes you up from sleep and your body jolts up, that too happens without a preconceived process, but not out of will. If you ever had one of those experiences you will know. It does not mean that anything to do with a brain has to be preconceived. It does not mean that anything conditioned is being preconceived.

In experience, when you no longer identify with thoughts which are mostly localized in the brain, you realize your head activity can be experienced not as you, but within you. I'd say this is one way to argue that consciousness is not generated from the brain.

I wouldn't say they are entirely generated from the brain, but in this life it is dependent on brain (think about brain dead people), as it is also dependent on other factors like mental factors from the past, etc. Our every activity is entirely interdependent, and especially in this human life, brain is very important even though it is just one of those factors among many.

When this steeping outside happens, I am aware of everything as a whole, including my surroundings as if there is no boundary. It's like I stepped out of a moving vehicle and now I see its pathway totally from above without division between sceneries i would've seen had I been inside the car.

Great. There is in fact never a center or a boundary... we merely conjured one.

The less you identify with any-thing, the more expansive the view becomes. I feel very present and at the same time I feel like there is no I existing in the picture. Again, I'm just sharing an experience. But here I also feel very potent. Like I can really act. And when I act in a very clear states of being, it doesn't feel like I am choosing between possible pathways, but rather creating something entirely new from this immediate world I am aware of. There's an obvious correlation between how unconditioned this act is and how present I am within the moment.

Creativity is spontaneous and fresh, but spontaneity does not contradict interdependence. (much like emergence) Interdependence does not bind us either - it is interdependence that makes this life/creativity possible (e.g. the food you eat, the things you wear, the computer you are using, just to use some gross examples).

 

I like what Thusness said: "No transcendental 'unconditioned' being or 'state' exists by itself and of itself. The 'unconditioned' in Buddhism is the spontaneous perfection of all necessary conditions in the natural state. This is only realized after the direct insights of the 2 fold emptiness."

Edited July 25, 2012 by xabir2005

[johndoe2012]

The question of free will always puzzles me. What does it really matter if we have free will or not? does it actually change who (or what) we are on a fundamental way or just how we view ourselves. I think the comment made about feeling like a hostage in regards to free will is apt for many people, they feel that without free will they are a prisoner to destiny, but that's not exactly true.

 

[snip]

 

Anyways, I could go on, but I think I'll stop there for now. After all I doubt many people read my posts these days, so no need to waste an inordinate amount of time on something that most likely few people will be interested in hearing anyways.

 

Aaron

 

Thanks, enjoyed your post.

[Stosh]

I read and liked Aarons post too.

(And others)

 

Stosh

Edited July 25, 2012 by Stosh

[Aaron]

Howdy guys,

 

Chris and Stosh, I'm happy that you found something you liked in what I wrote. Lucky7, I actually have given up my own will and turned it over to the care of the universe. When I do this I find that the amount of problems I have are minimal at best. The universe has a way of taking care of us, if we let it. I know that sounds new age-ish and all, but from my experience, it's the absolute truth. I think this is also what Lao Tzu alludes to in the Tao Te Ching, the idea of living, not for yourself, but for the universe, of being a servant to the universe and by being a servant, being able to benefit the universe. Anyways, I hope things are going well for everyone.

 

Aaron

[Simple_Jack]

I have always struggled with the idea that if there is no-self there is no free will, which seems like the most logical conclusion. And often you will encounter teachings that say, "there is no one, and therefore was no one to choose in the first place." Ideas such as, "there is just things happening with no one there," are abundant.

 

But in direct experience it is not like this. The less you identify with a self, the stronger your sense of choice is. Why? Because when you believe you are something, such as the body or the mind, you are constantly reacting as that object you identify with. For instance, patterns build up around a mental personal identity and form a personality. When you are engrossed in a personality, an idea of a self stuck to these thought patterns, or in attachment to the body, actions don't arise from a conscious choice, but a conditioned reaction.

 

So the purest way to express free will is when I am perfectly present, and without identification with any "thing" in experience as a self. How can any-"thing" in existence have any choices anyway? It will always be conditioned. But if I begin to see life in it's immediacy, seeing everything as they are, then the choice is true. You are creating a new situation that is not a reaction, but a creation.

 

Note: I'm not saying there is no-self or a Self or a background consciousness or whatever. I am speaking from what I perceive. And from what I perceive, acting with this sense of free will is much more rewarding than convincing yourself there is no free will and only scenery of life happening.

IMO, 'free will' only applies (in this sense) when there is a notion of a fixed 'destiny' or as if our lives our dictated by some external controller. With dependent origination, this really is a moot point since there are only causes and conditions. You ever come across this Nagarjuna quote?

 

To whomever emptiness is possible,

All things are possible.

 

You've got the gist of it, but I think this premise could be expanded further.

[Simple_Jack]

No, not if you practice wu-wei,

That sounds like an oxymoron. How can you 'practice wu wei?' This already entails a perceived 'practitioner' who 'practices', wu-wei. By making it a subject/object duality, this renders it an effortful action. This would not be natural or effortless.

 

EDIT: Also it depends on how you interpret "Tao." Do you interpret in terms of Brahman? Or like how this commentator on the Zuangzi who put it like this: Guo's thought reinterprets the classical pronouncements about the Tao so that it in no way signifies any kind of metaphyisical absolute underlying appearances, but rather meaning "no thing." This absence of anything beyond appearances is the first premise in Guo's development of a theory in which all phenomal things are "self - so," creating and transforming themselves without depending on any justification beyond their own temporary being.

My link

Edited July 27, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[silas]

>>That sounds like an oxymoron. How can you 'practice wu wei?' This already entails a perceived 'practitioner' who 'practices', wu-wei. By making it a subject/object duality, this renders it an effortful action. This would not be natural or effortless.

 

To "practice" wu-wei is to remove the mind from one's actions, so that the actions occur without effort or intent. It is a natural action because it is thinking that takes effort. If I am hungry, I absent=mindedly reach for a fruit and eat without realizing or knowing that I am eating.

 

>> like how this commentator on the Zuangzi who put it like this: Guo's thought reinterprets the classical pronouncements about the Tao so that it in no way signifies any kind of metaphyisical absolute underlying appearances....

 

Yes, but Guo (I am assuming it's Guo Xiang) is not a classical Taoist. Some of his philosophy illuminates classical Taoism, but the rest is not classical Taoism.

Edited July 29, 2012 by silas

[zerostao]

doesnt a person (or anyone) have free will, if and only if, they are free to choose the will that they want?

seems to me that some folks have freedom of will and others do not.

[Stosh]

doesnt a person (or anyone) have free will, if and only if, they are free to choose the will that they want?

seems to me that some folks have freedom of will and others do not.

 

One thing a person does have is the ability to emphasize or

deemphasize motivations.

Building upon that over time one can manipulate their motivations

change the sequence of events.

While each of us is dealt a hand of cards

there are great differences in which way they are played.

When a person is acting out of habit

and is not consciously monitoring and molding their behavior

it is then that they are sacrificing the free will they could

have had...some folks think that is terriffic , give it a name,

and promote it as bringing them peace.

Stosh

[Aaron]

One thing a person does have is the ability to emphasize or

deemphasize motivations.

Building upon that over time one can manipulate their motivations

change the sequence of events.

While each of us is dealt a hand of cards

there are great differences in which way they are played.

When a person is acting out of habit

and is not consciously monitoring and molding their behavior

it is then that they are sacrificing the free will they could

have had...some folks think that is terriffic , give it a name,

and promote it as bringing them peace.

Stosh

 

This brings to mind Chapter 65 from the Tao Teh Ching (Wu trans.)...

 

 

IN the old days, those who were well versed in the

practice of the Tao did not try to enlighten the

people, but rather to keep them in the state of simplicity.

For, why are the people hard to govern? Because they

are too clever! Therefore, he who governs his state

with cleverness is its malefactor; but he who governs

his state without resorting to cleverness is its

benefactor. To know these principles is to possess a

rule and a measure. To keep the rule and the measure

constantly in your mind is what we call Mystical

Virtue. Deep and far-reaching is Mystical Virtue! It

leads all things to return, till they come back to Great

Harmony!

 

Aaron

Edited July 31, 2012 by Aaron

[Jetsun]

doesnt a person (or anyone) have free will, if and only if, they are free to choose the will that they want?

seems to me that some folks have freedom of will and others do not.

 

They say in the Fourth Way system that free will has to be earned and worked for, if you are bound by all the rules and conditionings that you are subjected to while growing up in a family and society at large then you aren't really free unless you have done something to remove them or transcend your identity so it isn't controlled by them. So I agree some people are free and others aren't , I'm not free yet by a long way but at least I see that I am not which creates the possibility that I could become free by working towards it, while those who believe they are already free without having done anything to earn it are more imprisoned as they see no need to do anything.

 

Edit: but how that relates to no agent I think the teachings which say there is completely no agent fall into the nihilistic side of the middle path so I don't believe they are correct, the self identity and agent is self evident, it just gets polluted with the taints and habits which then claim the identity of the person and imprison them and give them no free will , my understanding of the purpose of many spiritual paths is to show that you are not this bundle of taints and conditionings so you are not what you think you are , but that doesn't mean that there is completely no agent its just the self isn't what most people think it is.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Jetsun

[Birch]

What Jetsun said.

 

---returns to sheep pen---

[silas]

>. When a person is acting out of habit and is not consciously monitoring and molding their behavior it is then that they are sacrificing the free will they could have had.

 

The advantage of wu-wei practice is that habits belong to the mind, and in wu-wei, the mind stands back as observer and it is the inborn nature of the self and Tao currents that influence actions.

 

In those cases when someone has really strong conditioning, I recommend trying a subliminal meditation to ease the control of such conditioning. There are other options too like water meditation.

 

However, even if there is free will, I advocate will influenced by Tao through a connection to the Tao currents, cultivated with mirror mind meditation. The reason is we are all part of the world's regulatory system. If the planet, for example, is injured, there are currents drawing energies to the damaged areas to heal the world. Those who isolate their wills may not experience such currents.

Edited August 1, 2012 by silas

[kundakiss]

Ouff. The free will debate. How long have you boggled my mind. But to every question there's an answer they say. So, does free will exist? An answer must exist, that's for sure .

 

Someone argued with me being pro-free-will saying, "If I wanted to, I COULD go out right now, and kill someone. Or jump on my computer desk at work and scream! So, free will exists!"

 

Ahh. But the theoretical ideas of these actions and reality are two different things. Sure, free will exists theoretically. But, does it exist in my experience? I could FORCE myself to jump on the desk, but wasn't that simply a result of my mind trying to prove to itself that free will exists, and therefore acting accordingly to its specific nature under these specific circumstances? Another cause and effect in motion. My jumping on the desk had a cause behind it, and the mind was conditioned to its specific decision in its reaction. So, no, it's not out of the flow of life.

 

Hmm... But then I go higher, my awareness grows. Now I act fully in the present moment. I start to live a life of creation, instead of reaction. But all that means is that my awareness was ripe enough from its experience to change the ways it perceives reality. And so, it still remains an inevitable occurrence that has happened to me, even though now I feel so different compared to how other people live and decide. Nonetheless, free will remains a mystery.

 

Then I wrap my head around an idea: There is no time. It is an illusion that is created by a relative point of reference created by my body's location in space. Time is movement through space. If my body or awareness occupied infinite space, I would not know time. And the idea of free will vs. determinism would equally fly out of the window... Hmm.

 

But then I can go even higher... to realms I am currently unfamiliar with in my experience, so I can't comment any further. And so, free will still remains a mystery.

 

The above is a description of my personal evolution towards my understanding of free will. Hope it helped at all.

 

Peace,

 

Eugene

Edited August 1, 2012 by oodjee

[zerostao]

"However, the dynamical structure of quantum

 

theory contains certain causal gaps. In particular, the process-1 agent-generated choices

 

of probing actions are determined, within the theory, neither by the physically described

 

aspects of nature, nor by any non-human agency. Thus, within the framework of orthodox

 

quantum mechanics, the process-1 probing actions are, according to the specified

 

criterion, manifestations of human free will, and they have, by virtue of the dynamical

 

rules of quantum theory itself, the capacity to influence, in consciously intended ways,

 

the physical actions of the agent. Thus the passage from classical mechanics to quantum

 

mechanics converts human beings from mechanical automata to causally efficacious

 

conscious agents whose conscious intentional efforts can, by virtue of the quantum laws

 

themselves, cause to occur the intended physical action and increase in knowledge."

 

[kundakiss]

"However, the dynamical structure of quantum

 

theory contains certain causal gaps. In particular, the process-1 agent-generated choices

 

of probing actions are determined, within the theory, neither by the physically described

 

aspects of nature, nor by any non-human agency. Thus, within the framework of orthodox

 

quantum mechanics, the process-1 probing actions are, according to the specified

 

criterion, manifestations of human free will, and they have, by virtue of the dynamical

 

rules of quantum theory itself, the capacity to influence, in consciously intended ways,

 

the physical actions of the agent. Thus the passage from classical mechanics to quantum

 

mechanics converts human beings from mechanical automata to causally efficacious

 

conscious agents whose conscious intentional efforts can, by virtue of the quantum laws

 

themselves, cause to occur the intended physical action and increase in knowledge."

 

 

Interesting. Who said that?

 

Well, personally, the mentality of spirituality is to not take anything as fact unless it is supported by personal experience. And even then, contemplate it endlessly. My personal experience does not yet encompass wisdom of quantum mechanics, so I cannot speak on it, or know where to place the piece into reality's puzzle.

 

I'll tell you this though, the study of life through external means would get you a fraction of results that inner realization can, and has by present and past mystics. (Although I love science's contribution, and is definitely an important piece to our life). My personal advice still, don't attach to external information while it still evolves to full comprehension. Nice post nonetheless. However I can't do anything with it. It is just brain-talk, and gives no wisdom, which actually has potential in solidifying ignorance.

Edited August 1, 2012 by oodjee

[zerostao]

Interesting. Who said that?

 

You're on a Taoist forum, zerostao. The mentality of spirituality is to not take anything as fact unless it is supported by personal experience. And even then, contemplate it endlessly. My personal experience does not yet encompass wisdom of quantum mechanics, so I cannot speak on it, or know where to place the piece into reality's puzzle.

 

I'll tell you this though, the study of life through external means would get you a fraction of results that inner realization can, and has by present and past mystics. (Although I love science's contribution, and is definitely an important piece to our life). My personal advice still, don't attach to external information while it still evolves to full comprehension. Nice post nonetheless. However I can't do anything with it. It is just brain-talk, and gives no wisdom, which actually has potential in solidifying ignorance.

 

for sure i have never contemplated anything endlessly yet. i liked your post alot oodjee, that is why i responded.

but it is you that brought up determinism,time, space, infinite, cause and effect, motion,,,

i have never been aware of my body or awareness occupying infinite space, so i cannot speak to that.

you seem familiar, but i guess that cant be, as this is our first meeting, i suppose? welcome to the tao bums.

yes it is taoist forum, thanks for the reminder. interested to hear more of your views on taoism.

 

the quote is pulled from a new topic i started in the off topic section.

[Stosh]

This brings to mind Chapter 65 from the Tao Teh Ching (Wu trans.)...

 

 

IN the old days, those who were well versed in the

practice of the Tao did not try to enlighten the

people, but rather to keep them in the state of simplicity.

For, why are the people hard to govern? Because they

are too clever! Therefore, he who governs his state

with cleverness is its malefactor; but he who governs

his state without resorting to cleverness is its

benefactor. To know these principles is to possess a

rule and a measure. To keep the rule and the measure

constantly in your mind is what we call Mystical

Virtue. Deep and far-reaching is Mystical Virtue! It

leads all things to return, till they come back to Great

Harmony!

 

Aaron

Fair and truly said

but I dont know where you are going with it.

Personally, I am not out to govern folks

and it is probably true that the ignorant are easier

to handle, but I rebel at the idea that ignorance is bliss

Besides , most folks want to keep the ideas they

already have and trust

Only those who do not yet have ideas, which they think

they can trust, will embrace new ones.

So if you or I ever convince anyone of something new

their faith was shaken-betrayed beforehand.

( I can say that for myself for sure)

Stosh

[Simple_Jack]

To "practice" wu-wei is to remove the mind from one's actions, so that the actions occur without effort or intent. It is a natural action because it is thinking that takes effort. If I am hungry, I absent=mindedly reach for a fruit and eat without realizing or knowing that I am eating.

This is just a state of dullness or of being 'unawares'(i.e. lack of mindfulness.) IMO, instead of trying to understand nubulous concepts from Chinese philosophy, it would be more practical for you to develop your shamatha practice by means of developing one-pointed concentration on a meditation object (i.e. focusing on the breath.) Building and tempering 'mindfulness' is a core spritual practice.

[Simple_Jack]

Edit: but how that relates to no agent I think the teachings which say there is completely no agent fall into the nihilistic side of the middle path so I don't believe they are correct, the self identity and agent is self evident, it just gets polluted with the taints and habits which then claim the identity of the person and imprison them and give them no free will , my understanding of the purpose of many spiritual paths is to show that you are not this bundle of taints and conditionings so you are not what you think you are , but that doesn't mean that there is completely no agent its just the self isn't what most people think it is.

'No-agent,' just means that there isn't any inherent (i.e. absolute, eternal, unchanging) agent seperate from the action or chain of events as it unfolds.

 

Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,

no doer, though certainly the deed is found.

peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,

the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

 

- Visuddhimagga* XVI, 90

 

*English title: Path Of Purification by Bhadantacariya Buddhagosa.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[silas]

>>Simple_Jack: This is just a state of dullness or of being 'unawares'(i.e. lack of mindfulness.)

 

The way to begin understanding wu-wei is to remove the mind; the way to develop understanding is to bring the mind back to awareness without interference. Action without action is action without effort, without intent, motivated by Tao/Te.

 

 

>>Simple_Jack: IMO, instead of trying to understand nubulous concepts from Chinese philosophy, it would be more practical for you to develop your shamatha practice by means of developing one-pointed concentration...

 

In classical Taoism, needle-sharp 1-pointed concentration is fine if you want it, but not necessary. What is important is one's ability to sense energy flows because the world is real.

Edited August 2, 2012 by silas