There is no "Chinese mind"

[thelerner]

One thing we agreed on is its a game of percentages. I say(out of my butt) my top surgeon saves 4 out of 5, 80%. What percentage of visitors does your super yogi save? 1/10 of one percent? It goes up to 3% for those who disciple with them and go through vigorous ascetism? Rama Das and his ilk may leave people feeling good, giving them a spiritual and emotional life, but will it take you off the wheel? Not if your master has 98% to go. So in my opinion, giving people a few more years on this planet is more important, at least statistically .

 

Plus I don't subscribe to your religion. I have no idea if these people incarnate or not, or what happens to them when they die. I don't think its provable. I do find aspects of childrens remembered past lives fascinating, and have great respect for Buddism. Isn't Tibetan Buddhism based on these guys reincarnating(side track)?

 

I know that the great yogi's die. Dysentary got the Buddha right. I was at a Sivananda ashram when it was visited by its lineage successor. He was a great accomplished Yogi. A lifetime of work and purity. He had a stroke and was carried in. He was paralyzed, drooling, only able to mutter. Worse his eyes seemed sad.

 

My point is not to disparage him. He was enlightened IMHO. Being completely human is feeling the whole spectrum, love, rage, anger, despair. My idea is that complete human feels these things and lets them go completely. Whereas we feel them, and deny, then let in a little, deny, then over react etc.

 

Maybe its terminology problem, like the word God, Loaded with a thousand meanings and emotions. I like the term Complete human, not perfect, but there is a loving humaness in there imperfection, that is better then perfect. Its not the Godlike Enlightenment that seems to be your definition, but its what I mean when I say enlightened.

 

 

Michael

[Cameron]

I like stories like this one.

 

Stone Cutter

There was once a stone cutter who was dissatisfied with himself and with his position in life.

One day he passed a wealthy merchant's house. Through the open gateway, he saw many fine possessions and important visitors. "How powerful that merchant must be!" thought the stone cutter. He became very envious and wished that he could be like the merchant.

 

To his great surprise, he suddenly became the merchant, enjoying more luxuries and power than he had ever imagined, but envied and detested by those less wealthy than himself. Soon a high official passed by, carried in a sedan chair, accompanied by attendants and escorted by soldiers beating gongs. Everyone, no matter how wealthy, had to bow low before the procession. "How powerful that official is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be a high official!"

 

Then he became the high official, carried everywhere in his embroidered sedan chair, feared and hated by the people all around. It was a hot summer day, so the official felt very uncomfortable in the sticky sedan chair. He looked up at the sun. It shone proudly in the sky, unaffected by his presence. "How powerful the sun is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be the sun!"

 

Then he became the sun, shining fiercely down on everyone, scorching the fields, cursed by the farmers and laborers. But a huge black cloud moved between him and the earth, so that his light could no longer shine on everything below. "How powerful that storm cloud is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be a cloud!"

 

Then he became the cloud, flooding the fields and villages, shouted at by everyone. But soon he found that he was being pushed away by some great force, and realized that it was the wind. "How powerful it is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be the wind!"

 

Then he became the wind, blowing tiles off the roofs of houses, uprooting trees, feared and hated by all below him. But after a while, he ran up against something that would not move, no matter how forcefully he blew against it - a huge, towering rock. "How powerful that rock is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be a rock!"

 

Then he became the rock, more powerful than anything else on earth. But as he stood there, he heard the sound of a hammer pounding a chisel into the hard surface, and felt himself being changed. "What could be more powerful than I, the rock?" he thought.

 

He looked down and saw far below him the figure of a stone cutter

[DentyDao]

[Cameron]

As it is.

[DentyDao]

As it is.

[thelerner]

SeanD, I think you'd have me study just long enough until I agreed with you. If I studied a bit more came to a different viewpoint, obviously I'd be like those Buddhists who studied for decades but you say still don't get it.

 

Sorry, not my religion, some good stuff there, but judgement passed. I'm as likely to buy your load as you are to convert and become Hassidic. No problem, big world, Allah loves diversity.

 

 

Michael

[Ian]

Different practices effectively destroy negative karma, or tramatic mental imprints from your past, at different rates. In effect, these practices (meditation, the eight fold path, etc...) can delete negative karma; neikung or what are commonly called vajrayana tantras in Tibetan Buddhism can delete negative karma at an exponential rate. The Chinese Taoists have the most intact forms of this practice in our current day.

 

All practices also build karma. "Practice karma" - what you want to happen as a result of your practice, can be one of the hardest karmas to shed. And also one of the subtlest to notice.

 

And high-energy "light the blue touch paper and retire" kinda practices can be especially beguiling, since all those landmark changes convinvce you you must be doing ok.

 

Good momentum and a moderate level of achievement can be more important than trying to get the job done quickly. It's a little paranoid to assume that it's gotta be done this life before it all goes pear-shaped.

 

It can be argued that neigung is something you eventually experience, not something you try to do.

 

It's a sign of a good practice that you can shut up and get on with it. If you have to trumpet it as being better than other people's you leave yourself open for others to conclude that you are mainly trying to convince yourself.

 

Live and let live, anyone?

[Cameron]

Where Ime at with all this-and maybe it's a low level, if so, no problem-is it's mostly about connecting with our nature and then just following that. What is nature? What is natural? The sun is shining, stars and planets and trees and animals all 'do there thing'.

 

We humans like to complicate things with our intellectual capacities. Ultimately, it's all good. It's all flowing. But in the moment it might be seen as bad, or not right. I think Shakyamuni Buddha used the term unsatisfactory(Don't quote me on that).

 

So the thing that interests me most now is connecting with nature, what is natural for me, and then following that. Adyashanti uses the term 'ride the current' of your life. If you 'ride the current' your not striving. Your not efforting and struggling. That's not to say 'riding the current' is totally effortless. There are probably periods of hard work inherent in riding the current. But even that hard work is what is natural. Flowing as naturally as water down the river.

 

So..staying with this concept. If I can connect to this. And if my life can flow naturally like the river. Then whatever is, whatever naturally is, is perfect. In that perfection everything exists. If it involves going to China and studying with an enlightened Taoist, or never meditating again and picking up golf as my new hobby instead of meditation or qigong. Or devoting my life to martial arts, or getting married and raising a family. Whatever is naturally occuring is perfect. How can one way be really better than another?

 

I am just questioning and thinking on these things. It could be a mistake. But I think there is a deeper natural unfoldment going on. Deeper than the ego and what the ego wants. Or what the ego thinks that it wants. In that natural unfoldment we are already the great perfection. And all sentient beings already reside in the Buddha realms.

 

Of course, there is confusion. There is hunger. There is suffering. Wasn't this the very question that started Buddha on his search for truth? Why do beings suffer? If there is a question I am interested in it would be this one. Far more than becoming enlightened. Perhaps the answer to this question of suffering is enlightenment itself. But then, isn't the suffering, the unsatisfactoriness, the very cause of the effect of enlightenment?

 

Is it not because of the unsatisfactoriness that we search in the first place? And question and have arguments on the internet at 1 in the morning.

[forestofsouls]

Thinking something is true does not make it so.

Check out a book called 'clear light of bliss.' When you have reached this stage you have just begun the journey to enlightenment.

 

I think you're missing the point. People are at different stages of development and understanding, and need different things. In fact, if you give some one high level teachings before they are ready, you can in fact do them a grave disservice. I have known people who spend all their time engaging in intricate theory and metaphysics, but their actions don't match their intellectual understanding.

 

Perhaps your school doesn't practice layered, individualized teaching?

 

Regarding the book, my question was what you think. You have met people you belive to be enlightened, I was simply asking what factors they displayed (I haven't met any, or if I have I didn't know).

 

I have plenty of books and know by personal experience that reading a menu doesn't feed my hunger. I went through a book collecting stage and a theory only phase.

 

You rise above karma by reaching the first true stage of enlightenment which is beyond karma. Often refered to as salvation or liberation. In simple terms elightenment = 0% negative karma or beyond karma. Just to give a simple model, if most of us have say 90% negative karma, we can say a liberated being has maybe 25% negative karma. This person would be a saint in the eyes of most of us; we wouldn't be able to help ourselves from feeling drawn to the energy and charisma of such a person. People like the popular Indian Yogis are often around this stage. At least the more evolved ones. This stage is called Arhat in Buddhism. At this stage the cycle of birth and death nolonger hold sway over you.

 

You don't need to wait to appear to be a saint. Practicing the five precepts (or other basic moral code) can bring us a long way without even any meditation.

 

Not to knock the tantra of India and Tibet, but, relatively speaking, the Chinese appear to have maintained the highest levels of these traditions (neikung) while other areas have declined to the degree that only the shell of what once may have been remains.

 

Why do you say this? What have you achieved using neikung that you haven't with other methods?

[DentyDao]

Cameron,

 

At the risk of sounding condesending, not my intention, I would just like to say that there's nothing to worry about. Reincarnation is real (take that however you want). The implication is we have all the time in enternity to explore whatever we want to and live however we what to without fear (my personal belief).

 

One of the biggest pitfalls is unnatural emotion and worry. I think your 'be natural approach' is right on. I just think it's the first step, not the last.

 

Peace, S

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

All practices also build karma. "Practice karma" - what you want to happen as a result of your practice, can be one of the hardest karmas to shed. And also one of the subtlest to notice.

 

I think it's okay to have goals. 'Do your work and leave the fruits of your labor to the lord.' You're observation is elementary my dear Watson.

 

And high-energy "light the blue touch paper and retire" kinda practices can be especially beguiling, since all those landmark changes convinvce you you must be doing ok.

 

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?

 

Good momentum and a moderate level of achievement can be more important than trying to get the job done quickly. It's a little paranoid to assume that it's gotta be done this life before it all goes pear-shaped.

 

No one has said that it's got to be done quickly. Who's rushing?

 

It can be argued that neigung is something you eventually experience, not something you try to do.

 

Not really. 'Nei Gong' or internal 'work' requires effort. Thus the term 'work.'

 

It's a sign of a good practice that you can shut up and get on with it.

And yet here you are, talking it up.

 

If you have to trumpet it as being better than other people's you leave yourself open for others to conclude that you are mainly trying to convince yourself.

I'm not trying to be better. Just sharing. If you had information that you thought would help people, would you share it or just keep it to yourself?

 

Live and let live, anyone?

Take your own advice.

[Wayfarer64]

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

[Cameron]

Cameron,

 

At the risk of sounding condesending, not my intention, I would just like to say that there's nothing to worry about. Reincarnation is real (take that however you want). The implication is we have all the time in enternity to explore whatever we want to and live however we what to without fear (my personal belief).

 

One of the biggest pitfalls is unnatural emotion and worry. I think your 'be natural approach' is right on. I just think it's the first step, not the last.

 

Peace, S

 

 

No problem. I am happy to put myself at a 'first step' level because that is where I am at no matter how we care to define enlightenment. And if your vision of enlightenment involves immortality I hope you can achieve it.

 

Even still, this is all so much intellectual grasping of what is.

 

Your going to do what your going to do anyway just like me and anyone else on the board. Whether it is really going to a higher state or not is not for me to judge. As I presently don't view any states as being indicative of what is and mostly all transitory anyway.

 

Best of luck.

[Trunk]

Different practices effectively destroy negative karma, or tramatic mental imprints from your past, at different rates. In effect, these practices (meditation, the eight fold path, etc...) can delete negative karma; neikung or what are commonly called vajrayana tantras in Tibetan Buddhism can delete negative karma at an exponential rate.

I heard a teacher say that, on a practical basis, if you want to acheive enlightenment, that (paraphrased) "you have to meditate such that you purify oceans of it (karma) at a time" because there is just so much of it.

 

Appreciate your posts, btw,

and that you are still dropping by occasionally.

[DentyDao]

Edited December 7, 2006 by seandenty

[forestofsouls]

Without actual, personal experience, all this theory amounts to straw, empty words, mist vanishing at the touch of the sun.

[DentyDao]

Without actual, personal experience, all this theory amounts to straw, empty words, mist vanishing at the touch of the sun.

 

Well, go get some personal experience then.

[Wayfarer64]

[DentyDao]

Sean-

 

Sorry, I guess I am not seeing the light offered in your entries...But you do make a few good points amid the posings as benevolent sage...

 

If there is light attempting to be shared, you really should work on your communication skills. You make assertions as if they are facts and then when disagreed with state that this " misunderstanding" is due to a lack of understanding of your truths- not your lack of clearity or being obtuse, (or perhaps mistaken)...

 

This sort of hubris is very disconcerting and I am glad to say quite rare here at the Taobum's. That you express this need to be "holier than thou" - illustrates to me a very real need on your part for some meditation on humility and hubris and where you feel yourself to be in that particular paradox of being...

 

I get the sense that you wish to help those of us here who read your entries in an honest and heartfelt act of giving. This is a beautiful thing. But it is still your truth as you see it and it seems to me that in the flux of this everchanging flow through time and space there may be ways for that truth to share reality with other truths.

 

What I am interested in knowing is what "popular" Buddhism is -...Do you mean the very materialistic Nishi Renishi or Nom Myho Renge Kio chanting covetous crew I've seen around the USA? That is like a bizarro-world Buddhism to me- chanting for a new car etc...

 

Presuming to inform is common around here, but communicating to those who are up on a high horse is a pain in the neck. For me at this time, Absolutism seems out of place in Taoist thought...You do seem to be well informed and very dedicated so -go for it! I hope your truth rings true, for me there is a hollow thud to some of it, which may only be in how you state things, not what you state.

 

Sorry dude, my bad. Hugs okay, seriously.

Edited December 8, 2006 by seandenty

[sean]

SeanD,

 

What the hell are you talking about man!? Do you even fucking know?

 

Hahhah! Just joking. Sorry, I couldn't resist. That is a strange approach you have to a debate, I'll have to remember this one. Reminds me of this South Park epsiode where an urban gang war is about to go down, and I think it was Cartman who stands in between to the two gangs and he is trying to reason with them in all these different ways that aren't working, the gang is getting closer and closer to each other. Finally he goes "Guys! Come on!". And everyone is just instantly stopped in their tracks, confused, knife in one hand, the other hand scratching their head, going "... Wow ... yeah guys, I think he is right. He has a great point there. I mean -- Come on." The whole war is diffused by a completely meaningless remark that doesn't address any of the issues.

 

Anyway, I think The Tao Bums should start giving out awards, and I think you should get the "snarky Tao Bums know-it-all award". I always thought our first run in with an approach like yours would be through a born again Christian type stumbling onto the forum, irking everyone to convert with that southern density and insistence on literal scriptural understanding you just gotta love. I can't help but find immense humor in the fact that it ended up being a fundamentalist Taoist such as yourself. I didn't even know such a thing was possible.

 

 

With tongue in cheek,

Sean

[DentyDao]

I always thought our first run in with an approach like yours would be through a born again Christian type stumbling onto the forum, irking everyone to convert with that southern density and insistence on literal scriptural understanding you just gotta love. I can't help but find immense humor in the fact that it ended up being a fundamentalist Taoist such as yourself. I didn't even know such a thing was possible.

 

BOW DOWN TO ME!!!! OR FACE THE WRATH OF THE IMMORTAL MASTERS (who are my best friends and yes I'm a super sweat level 53.5 Wizard so you can lick the chocolate coated center of my universe, which I am the center of )

 

But seriously, Come on!

[DentyDao]

Sean-

 

Sorry, I guess I am not seeing the light offered in your entries...But you do make a few good points amid the posings as benevolent sage...

 

This from a guy who's screen name is 'Wayfarer' and writes cheesy taoist poetry.

 

If there is light attempting to be shared, you really should work on your communication skills. You make assertions as if they are facts and then when disagreed with state that this " misunderstanding" is due to a lack of understanding of your truths- not your lack of clearity or being obtuse, (or perhaps mistaken)...

 

Let's not get carried away. I'm sooo sorry I didn't respond to your brillant response to my post with that seriousness that it deserves. I'm sure your used to being taken fare more seriously, your highness.

 

This sort of hubris is very disconcerting and I am glad to say quite rare here at the Taobum's. That you express this need to be "holier than thou" - illustrates to me a very real need on your part for some meditation on humility and hubris and where you feel yourself to be in that particular paradox of being...

 

Honestly, I'm just sharing my honest views. I don't think I've said I'm more holy than anyone. I think your mistaking Humility with politeness, which I'm not really very good at. Humility doesn't mean you should always be PC and agree with people.

 

I get the sense that you wish to help those of us here who read your entries in an honest and heartfelt act of giving. This is a beautiful thing. But it is still your truth as you see it and it seems to me that in the flux of this everchanging flow through time and space there may be ways for that truth to share reality with other truths.

 

I think you may be splitting hairs here.

 

What I am interested in knowing is what "popular" Buddhism is -...Do you mean the very materialistic Nishi Renishi or Nom Myho Renge Kio chanting covetous crew I've seen around the USA? That is like a bizarro-world Buddhism to me- chanting for a new car etc...

 

I've covered this.

 

Presuming to inform is common around here, but communicating to those who are up on a high horse is a pain in the neck. For me at this time, Absolutism seems out of place in Taoist thought...You do seem to be well informed and very dedicated so -go for it! I hope your truth rings true, for me there is a hollow thud to some of it, which may only be in how you state things, not what you state.

 

Absolutism? Where are you getting that? I think your being overly sensitive. Maybe my posts are just the megaphone in the ear you needed to light a little fire under your ass.

 

Peace, S