There is no "Chinese mind"

[sean]

This from a guy who's screen name is 'Wayfarer' and writes cheesy taoist poetry.

This coming from a guy in an ethnocentric fundamentalist cult who has faith in outrageous things he's never seen himself.

 

Sean

[DentyDao]

This coming from a guy in an ethnocentric fundamentalist cult who has faith in outrageous things he's never seen himself.

 

Sean

 

Right back at you new age, flaming Liberal neo-conformist, proliferater of mediocrity and yuppy flim flam.

[sean]

I think we have another Healing Tao casualty on the loose folks.

 

And I think I should change this thread title to "There is no lack of ego here".

 

Sean

[Wayfarer64]

Thank you Sean D.!!

 

I would not want to be appreciated by a narrow minded fool such as your writings have depicted you to be. My choosing Wayfarer is obviously beyond your limited grasp of what Taoism intails for those of us who do not assume we are correct in every step we take.

 

That even Sean O. has found mild chastisement of your narrow-minded approach an apt response - says it all for me. Until you actually have something to write that sounds like truth is even a part of its content-beyond yr egoistic nonsense, I shall content myself with laughing at your hubris and folly. Dollars spent do not buy us into levels of wisdom, only levels of foolishness.

 

You are a very fit example of what the Yi Jing's The folly of youth -warns us of... water has a known direction seeking its own level. You should restart your supposed tour of expensive learning, get your many thousands of dollars back as monies ill spent and again realize you know nothing. Get a manual day-job & re-enter the everyday world of men, to hopefully learn from the simple unassuming happy folks who are far closer to any sort of god than you are now. (and maybe lay off the coffee)...

Again, I thank you for the insults, they are very reassuring to me.

 

To the rest of you who have read this- I am sorry for the negativism this blow-hard has brought out in me & some others of us as well...I have never suffered fools gladly.

 

Sean O. I thank you for yr response to this crap as well.

[Lozen]

Right back at you new age, flaming Liberal neo-conformist, proliferater of mediocrity and yuppy flim flam.

 

[Wayfarer64]

Sean D. -Have your entries lately on this thread & others been hacked ? First its hugs and then its rancor relating to the same entry and then its more and sillier messages from you & now care bears and pics of flowers and such...on other threads -I'm thinking - 'tis odd this fella-

 

So- my regrets for pointing out your folly - seek a safe ancorage-you seem adrift. Good luck...

Edited December 8, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[DentyDao]

Until you actually have something to write that sounds like truth is even a part of its content-beyond yr egoistic nonsense, I shall content myself with laughing at your hubris and folly.

 

Sorry I ruffled your feathers; I shall continue laugh at you in turn and we can both laugh at each other. And now I endeth this discourth move forwith awayth from thowith.

[DentyDao]

I think we have another Healing Tao casualty on the loose folks.

 

And I think I should change this thread title to "There is no lack of ego here".

 

Sean

 

Sean,

 

Maybe, since you've run out of rational arguments, you should ban me from the forum. I know you're dying to.

 

Is it possible that someone with a perspective different than what's been shared on this forum in the past is just being shut down because the ideas are too contrary to the village mentality and agreed upon norms?

 

"Hey guys, don't listen to this guy, he's crazy... ignor him!" All covered up with sly humor and back patting. I think your more interested in supporting your friends than having a real dialoge. If what I have to say was so outragous, why not just ignor it instead of getting all worked up and having a hissy fit over what some guy wrote on the internet? Let those who have some interest in what I have to share read in peace without stooping to meaningless, dismissive comments and attacks?

 

Me: I think enlightenment is different than what you think it is.

 

You: You're mentally deranged!!! I hate you!!!

 

Just a thought, S

 

 

Sean D. -Have your entries lately on this thread & others been hacked ? First its hugs and then its rancor relating to the same entry and then its more and sillier messages from you & now care bears and pics of flowers and such...on other threads -I'm thinking - 'tis odd this fella-

 

So- my regrets for pointing out your folly - seek a safe ancorage-you seem adrift. Good luck...

 

At this point I'm not really concerned about your opinion of me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Leidee]

Hrmmm...

 

A person who seems to need to throw in..."with all due respect"...and then practice disrespect...and "i don't mean to condescend" and then proceeds to condescend...odd, don't you think?

 

The Skyhooks had a song "Ego is not a dirty word"

 

If I did not have an ego I would not be here tonight

If I did not have an ego I might not think I was right

If you did not have an ego you might not care the way you dressed

If you did not have an ego you'd just be like the rest.

 

Chorus

 

Ego is not a dirty word

Ego is not a dirty word

Ego is not a dirty word

Don't you believe what you've seen or heard

 

If Jesus had an ego he'd still be alive today

And if Nixon had an ego he might not be in decay

If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won

If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun

 

Chorus

 

Some people keep their egos in a bottom drawer

A fridge full of Leonard Cohen

Have to get drunk just to walk out the door

Stay drunk to keep on going'

So if you got an ego

You better keep it in good shape

Exercise it daily

And get it down on tape

 

You know - I don't know if there is any relevance (I suspect there isn't)...the song popped into my head and then I wondered about the lyrics...I like the last lines about exercising your ego daily As long as ego doesn't throw a leash around my neck.

 

Off to enjoy the rest of my tangent (ego included).

Leidee

[sean]

SeanD, honestly, I am not worked up in the least bit, nor had I even considered banning you. Is this something you are interested in?

 

You are really transparent, I wish you knew.

 

The problems people are having with you here, and I doubt it's just here you have these issues, don't really have anything to do with intellectual spiritual disagreements. There are thousands of posts on here amongst dozens and dozens of people, many with vastly different viewpoints, and nearly all of them civilly presenting their understanding of issues, listening carefully to other sides, being respectful, basically utilizing common sense social skills that we all learned in kindergarten. Something to think about.

 

Anyway, I think we should move away from the personal pokes and prods and character analysis. It was amusing but really nonstandard for the forum here. Normally I keep a pretty tight ship with the "no personal insult" policy so let's stick to it for real now.

 

Warmly,

Sean

[Wayfarer64]

It seems one of us has given up on even the basic concept of the forum. (But conceptualization may be a weak suit for that one in any case, such is the nature of narrow-mindedness).

 

No one of us should actually care what strangers think of us. Most of the time we share our thoughts in good humour and with lots of leeway for blather and silliness. Seldom do we try to agree for its own sake, and there is no semblance of a provincial mind-set here.

 

This I write for those who are very new to this forum...I am quite new here myself but have come to cherish these pages as a window into a greater chunk of humanity seeking spiritual insights than I would have thought likely to be available on the web...or anywhere!!!

 

That one member chooses to cast some of us, or all- as inferior to himself was bound to happen. It has happened at other forums and it will happen again. Open free-wheeling discourse is a sure way to make arrogant and narrow-minded folks take umbrage.

 

When one has little within themselves but aquired knowledge, yet little true wisdom, these things will happen.

 

So of course some of us will rely on spouting self-serving nonsense, in the name of "aquired wisdom", (that was maybe even foolishly bought and paid for at exhorbitant rate$...).

 

I guess one wishes to get one's money's worth. It is base and trite and simple-minded, but a natural response to having been ripped-off. We all like healthy returns on our investments. Even if we are not Yuppies.

 

If I had spent tens of thousands of dollars over the past ten years in a mighty effort to attain something that I am unable to grasp, and obviously have little capacity for after all; due to the basic lack of needed inner resources- that will naturally manifest in false hubris and spiteful nonsensical rancor.

 

I for one regret playing into this scenerio, my appologies to one and all ...

 

PS I am sorry Sean O.- I added this whilst you were adding yr last- still I desided to leave it in I mean it as a general statement more than an observation of any one's personal character, tho in this context that may not be so very clear...

Edited December 8, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[DentyDao]

You are really transparent, I wish you knew.

 

I think your character judgments about me are what's childish. I don't appreciate it and I said so. So what?

 

The problems people are having with you here, and I doubt it's just here you have these issues, don't really have anything to do with intellectual spiritual disagreements. There are thousands of posts on here amongst dozens and dozens of people, many with vastly different viewpoints, and nearly all of them civilly presenting their understanding of issues, listening carefully to other sides, being respectful, basically utilizing common sense social skills that we all learned in kindergarten. Something to think about.

 

I was very civil until I got blasted for a simple difference of opinion. If nobody else wants to play fare why should I? I live a very quiet hassle free life. What I learned in kindergarten is how to stand up for what I believe and say so.

 

Anyway, I think we should move away from the personal pokes and prods and character analysis. It was amusing but really nonstandard for the forum here. Normally I keep a pretty tight ship with the "no personal insult" policy so let's stick to it for real now.

 

I keep it it civil if you do, but if you what to stick it to me and rube dirt in my face, I'll playfully rub it back in yours. Nothing wrong with it really.

[Smile]

Wow, nice thread, I missed all the excitement.

 

I agree with lots of people here, especially with thelerner- I now believe Buddha was a jew- how else would it explain all the mess we are in now? Plus, that would make Mel Gibson right.

 

Now, from all the thoughts I stay close to what SeanD had to say. It's all hard work for a very long time. His view is realistic- if you don't do it harcore you have already "failed", but in order to wake someone up, sometimes they need to be bitch-slaped from their mayflower hippie dream.

 

If it was easy, everyone would be evolved. Instead everyone is talking about PS3. Well at least i do. PS3 thread energy is better.

[DentyDao]

It seems one of us has given up on even the basic concept of the forum. (But conceptualization may be a weak suit for that one in any case, such is the nature of narrow-mindedness).

 

That one member chooses to cast some of us, or all- as inferior to himself was bound to happen. It has happened at other forums and it will happen again. Open free-wheeling discourse is a sure way to make arrogant and narrow-minded folks take umbrage.

I'm sorry you feel that I'm putting myself in a superior position tahn the members of this forum; this may be your perception, but it's not reality.

 

When one has little within themselves but aquired knowledge, yet little true wisdom, these things will happen.

Who's really putting themselves in a superior position here?

 

So of course some of us will rely on spouting self-serving nonsense, in the name of "aquired wisdom", (that was maybe even foolishly bought and paid for at exhorbitant rate$...).

Speculation and wishful thinking on your part. What difference does it make how much money I've spent of what I choose to do with my life?

 

I guess one wishes to get one's money's worth. It is base and trite and simple-minded, but a natural response to having been ripped-off. We all like healthy returns on our investments. Even if we are not Yuppies.

 

If I had spent tens of thousands of dollars over the past ten years in a mighty effort to attain something that I am unable to grasp, and obviously have little capacity for after all; due to the basic lack of needed inner resources- that will naturally manifest in false hubris and spiteful nonsensical rancor.

 

Just sharing my point of view and pointing out that I felt you missunderstood what I was trying to say here. I found your responses weren't really accurate and a misdirection of what I was trying to communicate. Is saying so really so bad?

 

I'm enjoying my time here and I like good discussion and exchange. I don't respect all the opinions expressed here and had a desire to weigh in on these important topics. Personally I think your just as guilty of the rancor and narrow mindedness that you've accused me of having and I will continue to weigh in on similar topics as I see fit from time to time dispite your over reactions and undue criticism.

 

I will try to be a little me aware of your sensativity in future and I hope we have some more good debate.

 

Sincerely, Sean

[DentyDao]

Goodnight... howls at the moon, grunts a few times and does the neandertal walk back to cave. Wife smacks his face and growls as she bites neck...

[sean]

Yes SeanD, I agree to keep it civil.

 

Let's all just relax the ego stuff, myself included, and agree to show the utmost respect for each other. Forums are notoriously goofy like this because it's so easy to take things in ways that they weren't intended. So far I feel this forum has been blessed with a pretty impeccable track record of respecting different viewpoints. I want to continue holding this intention as a group. This is a beautiful little sangha we are cultivating here, let's keep it up!

 

Namaste,

Sean

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 28, 2021 by darebak

[Wayfarer64]

Darebak- A very apt take on this stuff, but we still each have our own paths to walk.

 

For me the liniages are not as important as the revolutionary. Many of the great teachers we quote here were the folks who took the old ways and made them over- Buddha from Hinduism, Jesus from Judaism, Baullah from Islam etc...

 

The quest for spiritual fullfillment for any one of us may be found in a totally new form. The context is the here and now. We are reading and listening in the now, this is likely somewhat new and different from whatever source our learning stems from.

 

This idea of constant change in the ever-present now is a very powerful idea for me and one that keeps me an adherant to Taoist thinking. All we really have is now. For me this means what is past is not the path forward.

 

I agree that self-discipline is one of the most important characteristics exhibited by the spiritual teachers we tend to follow and "get"...Meditation and renounciation of worldly activity and striving are usually required as well. But as Sean O. - (and I also) - have noted here already, sometimes the attainment of Dharma is not always so different from attaining chocolate or money or anything else that gratifies the self.

 

For me the search is more about learning how to give more of myself to the wider world than attaining powers and street-cred as a spiritual seeker. In other words having more to give rather than more to claim as one's own...Being a conduit -not a vessel...

 

Namaste- PDG

[thelerner]

I'm also sorry for my part in heating this up but (gets out stick), SeanD your main method of communication is dissection and criticism, your other is lecture. The last thing we want is mindless agreement or political correctness but its a discussion site. There's a two way process here.

 

Its not that D & C are always wrong, but it comes as combative, angry and stuffy. In your dissections your telling some wise people (I'm not included here) they don't know what the hell they're saying. Its not going to make you a good teacher.

 

Even Smiles 'Slap in the Face' is historically a good enlightening technique. But you need to connect with people for it to be anything other then assault. The really Great Ones are master listeners. Its a byproduct of their total being here now.

 

 

My exposure to Buddhism in the Midwest, through books, temples, festivals and newsletters has shown me that its pragmatic, loving and simple. Thats how its presented here. I love Rev. Kubose, listen to the Zen inspired talks of Michael McAllistair etc. I think my exposure is worlds away from SeanD's. It may be wrong, don't care, its pragmatic loving and simple. I'm follow the house holder path, which I believe is of equal nobility to the ascetics.

 

If enlightenment is something like all powerful, then I'm not going to make. Odds are you won't and if your master is at 2% then you'll be seeing him around next life. But I think the study and the effort can make us better people right now.

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

and I Know that Smiles get it, 'the Buddha is Jewish' comment was sarcasm, said after SeanD's who should I listen to a Nice Jew or Buddha. (I think we know the answer to that (me) )

[Wayfarer64]

Well I guess I got it backwards again... I have often thought that Jesus was a Buddhist trying to relate to the Jewish tradition. His home town was on the silk road to China and he could have been exposed to both Buddhism & Taoism from an early age. His ideas of finding compassionate ways for us to treat each-other is a very Buddhist way to go. AND the 3 wise men coming from the east may very well have been Lamas seeking the baby Jesus as one of their reincarnated Lamas- as they still do. And they usually bring stuff along that anyone could construe as gifts...

 

Of course on the otherhand some Jewish scholars maintain that all wisdom stems from Abraham...sending his offspring out into the world...So maybe it was a cyclical thing - Abraham - to Buddha - to Jesus etc etc -now I'm dizzy...Stay warm out there !!!

[DentyDao]

Its not that D & C are always wrong, but it comes as combative, angry and stuffy. In your dissections your telling some wise people (I'm not included here) they don't know what the hell they're saying. Its not going to make you a good teacher.

 

I'm not here to 'teach.' Actually it was a question about what Ian was saying. It didn't make any sense to me or probably to him either. But that was just on one point he was making; the rest just sounded like him kicking sand in my face so I gave it the unserious response I felt it warrented.

 

My exposure to Buddhism in the Midwest, through books, temples, festivals and newsletters.... It may be wrong, don't care, its pragmatic loving and simple.

Well, I guess Buddhism is whatever you decide it is. How can we really have a discussion if that's how you feel?

 

If enlightenment is something like all powerful, then I'm not going to make. Odds are you won't and if your master is at 2% then you'll be seeing him around next life. But I think the study and the effort can make us better people right now.

 

Khenpo, my Buddhism teacher, recalled many of his past lives at the age of five and begin trekking alone into the mountains to seek out masters at that time. He'll keep coming back until all sentient beings reach the full enlightenment of the Buddha. Once when he was giving a teaching, a man who had been secretly planning to commit suicide came up to receive a blessing from him. As he nelt down Khenpo touched his head and said, "Please don't kill yourself." The man burst in to tears and from that moment his life was changed forever.

 

Actually I'm quite confident that I will reach full enlightenment. Whether it's in this life or the next thousand isn't really important, but I promise to give it my best college try.

 

In the next few weeks I'll, hopefully, posts some further thoughts on why I feel the way I do. Perhaps this will bring a little more clarity to my position. We'll see.

 

S

Edited December 8, 2006 by seandenty

[Ian]

Actually, I just re-read the first thirty or so of Sean D's posts and he was unfailingly polite and reasonable.

 

I haven't been following entirely, so I don't really know where things might have got rancorous, but I wonder how much of the attitude of those communicating with him (including me) is due to

 

1) Training being offered which one might potentially rather like to do but life and finance doesn't permit, producing a bit of a sour grapes syndrome.

 

or

 

2) Bad memories of previous debates with students of David (Cemsen, anyone?)

 

or, on both sides,

 

3) Simple communication failures. I recall a post by Michael Winn some time ago, where he pointed out that most communication occurs through body language and tone of voice, and that it's therefore about a million percent easier to misconstrue the attitude of another person if you've only got print to go on.

 

What I mean is, you know, it's Christmas, let's all be friends. And perhaps make fewer statements and say "it seems to me" more.

[DentyDao]

Dear Ian,

 

A very merry Christmas to you too! And thanks; 'it seems' you're not such a bad guy after all.

 

Peace, Sean

[mYTHmAKER]

I agree with lots of people here, especially with thelerner- I now believe Buddha was a jew- how else would it explain all the mess we are in now? Plus, that would make Mel Gibson right.

 

You gotta be kidding. Right?

Please explain what Buddha being a jew has to do with todays mess

and how is Mel Gibson right.

[Pero]

SeanD, why do you think achievement of rainbow body is not full enlightenment? If that would be the case, then Padmasambhava would not be fully enlightened, since that is what he achieved. If we are thinking of the same thing though, as apparently there is a difference between rainbow body and body of light (which is what padmasabhava achieved), and despite reading around 20 pages about it on another forum, I`m still not quite sure of the difference. But since I`m quite far from achieving anything like that I don`t really worry much about it.

What is full enlightenment for you? (as much as it can be put into words)

Edited December 12, 2006 by Pero