There is no "Chinese mind"

[thelerner]

Are we really talking percentages here?

 

If I listen to a piece of music that I really like, isn't my mind(or lack thereof) in the same place as the mind of an enlight?ened? Same as when I'm relaxed and see the sky or anything that strikes the chord of beauty. Aren't we in the same place then?

 

Isn't it desires and mind clutter that separate me from the enlightenment? Do the enlightened just stay in that place longer?

 

Good luck to those who seek 10 year cave enlightenment. I think they're sorely tested when they leave the monastery or cave. Can we all agree you can be enlightened and still very screwed up? The path to enlightenment is litered with the paranoid and delusional.

 

One of the keys that the West has found (and maybe all great guru's knew instinctively) is that there needs to be internal psychological balance. Enlightenment, powers, satori are no proof that one is a complete human being. Meditation and Juice are not enough. The enlightened person who cannot sit in a coffee shop, enjoy a good hot chocolate and carry on conversation with a friend has lost far more then they've gained.

 

 

Michael

 

Whoa while typing this SeanD typed his, want to take this live chat gentlemen?

 

 

Michael

[sean]

It has nothing to do with belief, Sean. It's what is present regardless of beliefs. A noticing of this presence may draw one to become a spiritual renunciate, but becoming a monk is not a guarantee of anything. Because no one is there to notice the noticing. There is no self in control of wether to notice presence or not. Deepening just happens. There is no self that deepens. The ego can just as easily spend 10 years on spiritual quest as it can on building a business or creating a family. In fact, in some ways it may even be easier to hide an aloof, detached, angry, aggressively seeking ego away in a cave than amongst society where there are constant demands for you to give back, and so much more room for getting knocked on your ass, embarrassed, hit in the face with bottles -- btw where were you with your "hands in front of your face" advice last month man, I needed you!

 

There is only one truth, expressed in infinite ways. It's the ego that places monks and sifus and gurus on pedestals. Being drawn to a time of solitude and silence is more about a return to what is natural and ordinary for you than being "the best spiritual guy ev3r!!! -- way better than those stupid lost capitalist douche bags in that coffee shop back there, that's for sure".

 

It's all one, including the infinite ways in which things are unique. All of the distinctions, good, bad, medicine, cocaine and health food as you say, these distinctions are also part of the one. The one is not a gross sloppy grey soup at the midpoint of two extremes. The one is dynamic and filled to the brim with Everything.

 

Talking about Truth is pretty wild, you are right. I try to have a good time failing. I choose my words as pointers to silence. My own silence and anyone else who is reading my words. I know I fail a lot on my end, instead stirring more confusion and grasping in my own mind, so I can only imagine the kind of pure torture I put people reading my posts through. Sometimes though there is a real stopping here. My words seem to cancel themselves out, or maybe my mind just gets frustrated and gives up, and there is Silence, even amongst words.

 

Perhaps, like you say, literal silence is best sometimes. I've been thinking of making a transition to poetry but I think I am pretty bad at it. But there is less room for argument and I prefer to meditate than debate these days.

 

Peace,

Sean

[Cameron]

Hehe. Ok. Ime happy to help clarify things at my own expense

 

 

Sounds like more coffee tabel wisdom to me. "All those Taoists in China are caught up in some ego trip; We've got it all figured out here in the good old USA." This reminds me of Michael Winns commentary on the Buddha's "mommy issues." Say what???

 

 

 

Not talking about "All the Taoists in China". Ime talking about YOU.

 

But enough of this. I hope you get whatever it is your seeking. Ime serious, I have no interest in debating who is the real enlightened guy or not. The very basis is a thought that doesn't even exist.

[DentyDao]

[thelerner]

If you put enlightenment on such a grandiose scale, "endless power, absolute truth, infinite peace, boundless compassion, incalculable luminosity, indestructible bliss, unchangeable happiness... Unsurpassable" then your not going to have many people in a generation who pass the test. I happen think a modern Buddha can as likely be a bum as a business man.

 

I see people who I consider enlightened. You can go with big names like, Tolle, Advai, and dozens like them. You can go with people here on the board, guys like MatthewQi (sorry to drag you into this) who quietly calmly say, they're enlightened; and you know what I believe them.

 

They don't have endless power and I don't know how to calculate incalculable luminosity. But they have something precious. They're complete. Good enough for them, good enough for me.

 

Bodhi was famous for trying to judge levels of enlightenment. To me thats just an ego game. We all have tastes of it. Some more, some less.

 

I have great respect for Buddhism. I'm sure we can all agree that the Buddha actually was Jewish. Isn't the heart of his teaching to try his practice with a clear mind, not to codify or gospelize it.

 

well yada yada yada.

 

Its late, there is enlightenment in eating when hungry and going to sleep when tired.

Sorry I didn't have a chance to catch you for Live Chat

 

 

Michael

[Cameron]

 

Its late, there is enlightenment in eating when hungry and going to sleep when tired.

 

Michael

 

'Highest' wisdom on this thread IMO.

[DentyDao]

It has nothing to do with belief, Sean. It's what is present regardless of beliefs. A noticing of this presence may draw one to become a spiritual renunciate, but becoming a monk is not a guarantee of anything. Because no one is there to notice the noticing. There is no self in control of wether to notice presence or not. Deepening just happens. There is no self that deepens. The ego can just as easily spend 10 years on spiritual quest as it can on building a business or creating a family. In fact, in some ways it may even be easier to hide an aloof, detached, angry, aggressively seeking ego away in a cave than amongst society where there are constant demands for you to give back, and so much more room for getting knocked on your ass, embarrassed, hit in the face with bottles -- btw where were you with your "hands in front of your face" advice last month man, I needed you!

 

Traditionally, what your saying is true, if, over the course of many life times, one endeavors to slowly improve themselves according to the basic principles found in most spiritual traditions east and west. Not stating a fact, just a point of view shared by Buddhists and Daoists alike. But to achieve enlightenment in one life time (the Buddha's wish for all of us) requires a different approach... In the view of the Daoist and Buddhists I've come accross. The Buddha himself commented on this reality and was very clear about it. Wisdom or deepening as you call it, does NOT just happen. It's a result of the choices we make and the process can go both ways; we can actually become more egoistic and deluded if we don't know the causes of happiness and peace. These cause are very clearly outlined in Buddhism and Taoism (traditional taoism is perhaps less explicit).

 

There is only one truth, expressed in infinite ways. It's the ego that places monks and sifus and gurus on pedestals. Being drawn to a time of solitude and silence is more about a return to what is natural and ordinary for you than being "the best spiritual guy ev3r!!! -- way better than those stupid lost capitalist douche bags in that coffee shop back there, that's for sure".

 

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone is 'better.' More skillful perhaps. There are examples of enlightened householders, but that doesn't meen they didn't have extremly high levels of self discipline. Wang Liping for example, shocked his wife when she found out that he meditates 6 hours every night while she slept.

 

It's all one, including the infinite ways in which things are unique. All of the distinctions, good, bad, medicine, cocaine and health food as you say, these distinctions are also part of the one. The one is not a gross sloppy grey soup at the midpoint of two extremes. The one is dynamic and filled to the brim with Everything.

 

Does this even make sense to you?

 

Talking about Truth is pretty wild, you are right. I try to have a good time failing. I choose my words as pointers to silence. My own silence and anyone else who is reading my words. I know I fail a lot on my end, instead stirring more confusion and grasping in my own mind, so I can only imagine the kind of pure torture I put people reading my posts through. Sometimes though there is a real stopping here. My words seem to cancel themselves out, or maybe my mind just gets frustrated and gives up, and there is Silence, even amongst words.

 

Perhaps, like you say, literal silence is best sometimes. I've been thinking of making a transition to poetry but I think I am pretty bad at it. But there is less room for argument and I prefer to meditate than debate these days.

 

The Buddha said that absolute truth is beyond existence an non-existence, and therefore beyond words. He didn't say we shouldn't talk, but rather suggested we talk in terms of relative truth. It's true that 'I' does not exist, but we can give it a name; it's more practical and more honest. The Buddha wanted us to repect our limitations and fears and, in doing so, gradually move beyond them. All is not one relatively speaking and therefore we should respect it as such or we might get hurt.

 

We need to take care of our selves and consider the needs of others. Actually Buddha just wanted most people to understand this basic truth.

 

Good night. Thanks for the nice debate.

Edited December 6, 2006 by seandenty

[QiDr]

So your saying there are inherited behavioral traits that are passed down to Chinese babies?

 

What about half chinese half white? Would those traits then be blended according to your view?

 

*question directed to QiDr.

 

No, I have known dozens of couples over the years who have adopted Asian, Croatian, African and Central American babies, they all report that their children are "hard wired" for certain behavioral tendencies and they all have said that nature seems much stronger than nurture.

Adoption from other countries usually precludes knowledge of family lineage and I do not know any couples who have done DNA testing on their children.

Blending? It would be interesting to follow these children, to see if their offspring are still hard wired for those behavioral tendancies.

[Wayfarer64]

I can't amagine us all being wrong, but we may all be right about these issues. Every Sunday some members of the local Babtist Church come by to bring the word of god to me- via the bible. I tell them it is but one way to seek spiritual connectivity and that even as I hold Jesus in my heart I also hold Lao Tzu, Moses, the Buddha, Mohammad, Bahullah, and Shakespear! There are many paths to spiritual/human truth. Each is worth study and contemplation.

 

A cave is a fine place for some to reach that which they seek. For some it comes in their daily work as a revelation grants them inner wholeness and a cosmic unity...Those who have never heard of Jesus nor Lao Tzu may still hold the universe in their mind's capacity and an enlightenment beyond any other. The ways and means of this attainment matters very little in the long run. Each to their own in their own way and time. Many lives or an instant of satori are both viable and will indeed be needed for the human race to grow towards a brighter future of generally evolved mind-sets.

 

I don't think we do this alone, we must give as we receive. There is no value to enlightenment that is kept in a cave, even if that is where is was developed. That is also a real value for us all exchanging ideas on this site! We bring ourselves closer to realizing our potentials and share this as we grow...

 

The value of Chinese perspectives or western perspectives is also relative to individual mind-sets. Most Americans are of mixed genetics, more than most other demographic groups around the world. The Japanese and Chinese have mixed far less than would be expected considering the reach of their worldly endeavors...

 

I have doubts about the inherent genetic tendencies written of here. Just what are these proclivities? I know many Chinese with poor math skills. Are they an anomoly? What are the character traits of Central Americans? Does this rest on how much Europen or mestizo blood runs through their veins? Bah!!! I refute the notion of genetics pertaining to behavioral characteristics. As noted by others- there are many more differentiations within each racial group as there are differences from other racial groups.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[forestofsouls]

No, I have known dozens of couples over the years who have adopted Asian, Croatian, African and Central American babies, they all report that their children are "hard wired" for certain behavioral tendencies and they all have said that nature seems much stronger than nurture.

Adoption from other countries usually precludes knowledge of family lineage and I do not know any couples who have done DNA testing on their children.

 

QiDr,

 

What sort of traits, if you don't mind my asking?

[forestofsouls]

[Lozen]

[DentyDao]

Edited December 6, 2006 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

If you put enlightenment on such a grandiose scale, "endless power, absolute truth, infinite peace, boundless compassion, incalculable luminosity, indestructible bliss, unchangeable happiness... Unsurpassable" then your not going to have many people in a generation who pass the test.

 

Exactly my point.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that the Buddha actually was Jewish.

 

Now you could be on to somethinge here.

[thelerner]

When it comes to human perspectives and actions truth can be awfully subjective. The question 'Are You enlightened?' is as loaded as a gun and the answer is going to say more about the listener then the asked.

 

The same person asked, 'Are We enlightened right now?' may well smile back and say 'Yes, you understand'.

 

Beware assumptions. Also after 13 years of practice and Nidan rank I am much akido, not some

 

 

The root of modern Jewish tradition(hey we're 3000 years + old so its not an oxymoron) is that of the householder path. Finding the sacred in the ordinary and living now, in this world. No monasteries or caves. If the Chinese guy who dropped being a doctor to spend 10 years writing the TTC had a Jewish mother he'd be told; 'Meshuganeh, be a doctor, help people, then bill them. Get married and have some kids. You want to find the path, its right under your feet.'

 

Ones path must help others, otherwise it lacks heart.

 

Michael

[Lozen]

[DentyDao]

Beware assumptions. For example I'm only 70% nice, 15% exceptional and 15% relatively dark, but I'm slowly trying to even out a bit.

 

Impressive.

 

Also after 13 years of practice and Nidan rank I am much akido, not some

 

I'll take your word for it; sorry I didn'y realize you were a bad ass.

 

The root of modern Jewish tradition(hey we're 3000 years + old so its not an oxymoron) is that of the householder path. Finding the sacred in the ordinary and living now, in this world. No monasteries or caves. If the Chinese guy who dropped being a doctor to spend 10 years writing the TTC had a Jewish mother he'd be told; 'Meshuganeh, be a doctor, help people, then bill them. Get married and have some kids. You want to find the path, its right under your feet.'

 

Actually one of the most famous Buddhists in the world, Lama Surya Das, is a Jewish guy named Jeffery. He spent about ten years combined in retreat in the Himalayas and a monastery in Europe. He has probably helped more mentally sick (depressed, lost, unhappy) people than 10 Jewish doctors put together. The few who undertake this type of life are heroes and help people in ways we cannot comprehend.

 

Ones path must help others, otherwise it lacks heart.

 

This goes without saying. It's the foundation of Buddhism and Taoism. The Buddha spent over a decade in retreat seeking enlightenment; he left his wife and kids; was he a heartless, self absorbed person? I really don't think so.

Edited December 6, 2006 by seandenty

[thelerner]

Its not about being a good ass or bad ass. You have a chip on your shoulder. I think it will keep you from being a good teacher or communicating what you wish to.

 

Michael

[forestofsouls]

Edited December 7, 2006 by forestofsouls

[Wayfarer64]

Oy Vay! I once argued with a Jewish scholar on a train from New Brunswick to New York, about the age of the origins of Taoism vs the origins of the Talmud. He maintained that It ALL Came from Abraham and his off-spring then spreading the wisdom of Abraham world-wide...I thought that the burnt turtle shells that developed into the Yi Ching predated the historic Abraham... On this we did not agree...He said even Taoism sprang from Abraham-indeed any and all wisdom springs from Abraham!!! This seems as narrow-minded as the Baptists saying all truth springs from the New Testament, or for us to claim our truth is the way for all...The beauty of our diversity is reflected in our ways to attain our bliss...

 

In any case there is some very old wisdom around still.

 

We must each find a way to delve into our own awakenings. Each of us has a seperate path. Only when we get very close to "awakening" do these paths "prove" our developement...Broader perspectives can help us choose our paths with more insight, and recognize the sign posts that we may have become aware of already, through shared insights from each-other...

Edited December 7, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[DentyDao]

Its not about being a good ass or bad ass. You have a chip on your shoulder. I think it will keep you from being a good teacher or communicating what you wish to.

 

Michael

 

No offense Michael. Just trying to be cute... and failing.

[thelerner]

Amen brother. Nothing worse then arguing angrily about spiritual matters. Passionately discussing and disagreeing, not so bad.

 

Strangely I was talking to a doctor who had met Das and he spoke highly of him. Though I must say one good doctor, say a surgeon, 3 operations a day, 4 times a week. 48 times a year. What maybe 550 lives saved, (50 lost ). 10, 20, 30 years. Thats a lot. If there are 10 of them, why they've saved a small city(and sadly lost a small village).

 

And as says in the Talmud, Saving one life is like saving the universe.

 

Whereas great Lamas are like buses, both wear orange.

 

michael

[DentyDao]

Wait a minute. You're assuming that everyone needs the same thing. Every person is different. Every person suffers in a different way. As the Tao Te Ching can be translated:

 

"The way can be expressed, but not as a fixed path; terminology can be designate, but not as fixed labels."

 

If a person's defintion of enlightenment helps them to become a good person, to follow sila, then it may be a good thing, even if it is false. If you are an alcoholic or a drug addict struggling with your addiction, simply having an "ordinary" life might appear to be enlightenment.

 

Thinking something is true does not make it so.

 

 

What do you think these signs are? I don't mean this is an argumentative way, but as a true question. I have known people with real power, but they did not strike me as enlightened.

 

Check out a book called 'clear light of bliss.' When you have reached this stage you have just begun the journey to enlightenment.

 

Another definition: karma. I understand karma to mean action, as in cause/effect bound up together. Karma means that if you jump off a building, you'll break your legs. If you go into the rain, you get wet. If you think good thoughts and perform good actions, your mind becomes pure. I don't understand how one can rise above the laws of cause and effect.

 

You rise above karma by reaching the first true stage of enlightenment which is beyond karma. Often refered to as salvation or liberation. In simple terms elightenment = 0% negative karma or beyond karma. Just to give a simple model, if most of us have say 90% negative karma, we can say a liberated being has maybe 25% negative karma. This person would be a saint in the eyes of most of us; we wouldn't be able to help ourselves from feeling drawn to the energy and charisma of such a person. People like the popular Indian Yogis are often around this stage. At least the more evolved ones. This stage is called Arhat in Buddhism. At this stage the cycle of birth and death nolonger hold sway over you.

 

Basically your right, karma is the law of cause and effect. What does it mean? A lot of people, even long time practioners don't understand karma as clearly as they should. If we can say that all that exists is the present moment, then karma is the 'power of the past moment' manifested in this present moment. Different practices effectively destroy negative karma, or tramatic mental imprints from your past, at different rates. In effect, these practices (meditation, the eight fold path, etc...) can delete negative karma; neikung or what are commonly called vajrayana tantras in Tibetan Buddhism can delete negative karma at an exponential rate. The Chinese Taoists have the most intact forms of this practice in our current day. Not to knock the tantra of India and Tibet, but, relatively speaking, the Chinese appear to have maintained the highest levels of these traditions (neikung) while other areas have declined to the degree that only the shell of what once may have been remains.

 

Yoganada, the great yogi saint who became famous in the 1940's and 50's was fond of calling Tantra the 'jet airplane ride' of the religious world. He was refering to the fact that, if applied in a dedicated way, one can 'rise above' the cycle of birth, old age, death and rebirth in one life time; thus rising above the bonds of worldly karma and becoming a jiva mukti (freed soul).

 

Unfortunitly, yogis like yogananda are hard to come by these days. He had some basic accomplishment and was probably a true self realized saint.

[DentyDao]

Amen brother. Nothing worse then arguing angrily about spiritual matters.

 

Not at all.

 

Strangely I was talking to a doctor who had met Das and he spoke highly of him. Though I must say one good doctor, say a surgeon, 3 operations a day, 4 times a week. 48 times a year. What maybe 550 lives saved, (50 lost ). 10, 20, 30 years. Thats a lot. If there are 10 of them, why they've saved a small city(and sadly lost a small village).

 

And as says in the Talmud, Saving one life is like saving the universe.

 

Whereas great Lamas are like buses, both wear orange.

 

"Spiritual knowledge is the only thing that can destroy our miseries forever; any other knowledge removes wants only for a time. It is only with the knowledge of the spirit that the root cause of want is destroyed forever; so helping man [or women] spiritually is the highest help that can be given... we must always strive not to commit the mistake of thinking that physical help is the only help that can be given. It's not only the last but the least, because it cannot give permanent satisfaction." -Swami Vivekananda 1955

 

Who is the greater doctor, the one who staves off death and suffering for a number of years or the one who frees you from death forever?

 

Time to start thinking outside the box. If we read the diamond sutra we can understand the heart of true spirituality and start to see why Buddha's teachng along with the the teaching of other 'Buddhas,' saints and sages in the various spiritual traditions was perhaps the greatest gift ever given to humanity.

 

It's life that is Dukka (full of disatisfaction), not the small ups and down in between. Once you understand the problem you can fix it.

 

Imagine a world where everyone experiences and understands the reality of reincarnation; that's the real break through. The end of fear, a least to an extent.