Filling Vs. Opening [a Center]

[宁]

Edited July 26, 2012 by 宁

[thelerner]

also, there is a quote from Mr. Michael Saso that i read the other day on FB,

The secret of Taiji, Daoist meditation is to focus on the body's center of gravity, the belly, 3 inches below the navel, 3 inches in.

 

2. Opening a center ~ apparently it requires more energy, and more heat, to 'melt' the knot that ties the energy there. Once the center is opened, the state is permanent, and the Qi become very apparent, not just subtle phenomena (sometimes it 'burns' marks on the skin, like the ones we can see in the forementioned book by kosta.)

 

I tried to make the article as easy to read as possible, there is alot of info and i have to pack it all into one piece. For those that enjoy reading the last part and conclusion of the article, i insert here the puch line:

 

the state of a filled center is a temporary one, and is subject to thermodinamics, hence will leach out by osmosis.

the centers are containers with specific capacity. fill them, and they become active. 'melt' them, and you have the gate to real energy.

 

the other way that remains 'open' for us, is to fill the LDT and then allow the energy to flow up and fill the other centers one by one. i'm not sure this is the case though, although it kind of make sense.

 

This reminds me of some of the taoist 'Steaming' practices. Where you imagine/feel the dantien getting hotter and it heats water/ice in a cauldron above until there is steam that fills the body. A bit like some tummo exercises. Just wondering if this strikes a chord in the notion of filling vs opening.

 

Michael

[johndoe2012]

the other way that remains 'open' for us, is to fill the LDT and then allow the energy to flow up and fill the other centers one by one. i'm not sure this is the case though, although it kind of make sense.

 

This is also what Ya Mu says: first filling the LDT with light, then it opens the channels and then the energy centers open.

 

The thing you haven't explicitly stated is that the field in the LDT needs to be created first. I think I read on the longmenpai blog that women already have this field, however I cannot find that post now.

 

It can take a long time to first create the field and then start filling the LDT. See some of Ya Mu's post where he talks about this.

[宁]

Actually, Kostas reffers to the 'Opening' as pertaining to level two in mopai technology.

 

@Michael, it does strike a chord, however i'm not very familiar with the steaming process reffering to specific centers, as in opening upper centers via steaming..

 

@RW, Opening is an entire new dimension, it adds compression of the Qi to the practice, to aquire the desired result, i.e, the 'melting' of the 'knot'

 

@Chris, yeah, i thought about that, it's an interesting connection that i wanted to discuss here on this thread

 

Edited July 26, 2012 by 宁

[宁]

As far as i've noticed, the methodology of filling is simmilar in most schools, the type of Qi is the one that really differs.

 

for instance, the Christianity has the stilling of the mind via a practice known as Hesychasm, with various points of focus inside and outside the body. It's an esoteric part of the Christian Orthodox Church.

Also, there is a prayer, that needs a specific breathing pattern.

 

And so on.

 

We see simmilarities like these in many systems. They add their specific vibration via their particular focus, and all sorts of methods that accompany STILLNESS.

 

Stillness filles the body with Qi.

 

'When the body is still, the jing stays, when the emotions are tranquil, the Qi stays, when the Mind is still, the spirit returns' ~ Forgot the author...

[Brian]

Wait! I want to edit and expound on my original reply! I am in the process of composing a more thorough response. (May not be an immediate reply. But stay tuned. )

 

And your image is right on point, my friend.

 

 

<checks_watch>

[joeblast]

think flux density, for flux implies a dynamic situation;

vector and scalar potentials feeding and mutually supporting...

then think of the coefficient of friction,

what happens when the stickyness of the coefficient is surpassed...

 

...for what was the big bang other than this

Edited July 26, 2012 by joeblast

[fizix]

"if a 'wannabe daoist' wishes to find out more, the only other way (other than be formally accepted as indoor student) is to try to piece together all the pieces of puzzle that exist as free information ~ i'm refering to posts from posters like Practitioner, YM, and some others etc."

 

Oh really? The only ways huh. Makes me ponder the Original Source of such seemingly club-exclusive knowledge.

 

Kill the Buddha.

[Diamond Spectrum]

Clear:Open Empty Circulate Fill Balance/Close

[宁]

think flux density, for flux implies a dynamic situation;

vector and scalar potentials feeding and mutually supporting...

then think of the coefficient of friction,

what happens when the stickyness of the coefficient is surpassed...

 

...for what was the big bang other than this

 

i suppose that's why you require a strong body to do this kind of training.

 

 

btw,

 

people say you're good with breathing practices, and from reading your posts about it i tend to agree with them. can i ask you something, what do you think is, in your experience, the most effective way to increase lung capacity. the question is related to the topic, as most of the practices of neigong include breathing as a component.

 

thanks!

[joeblast]

*bows humbly* /\

 

I honestly dont think lung capacity is a super important matter. One will only be able to expand his lungs so much if one is being natural. If one is healthy then there should not be any major impediments - you might be able to increase the "middle 70%" range to perhaps 80, 85% of "what it used to be," but it is a secondary matter. Far more important is the energetic coherence of the breath and the smoothness of interaction of structures. From the smooth interaction we get more harmonious potentials, from coherence we get more focused and thus higher amplitude potentials. It is this coherence and higher amplitude that allows for very long breaths and resultant quiescence, not quite so much "increasing your lung capacity." Years ago after an all too celebratory weekend I trashed my progress hard, 3 days of getting a good buzz on, two of them significantly drunk, were enough to slash my breath times from over a minute down to 30, 35 seconds - so that is an indicator right there of how the energy is very supportive of longer breaths. I'm pretty certain it did absolutely nothing to the vital capacity of my lungs, but it ate up pretty much any qi reserves that I had gained at that point in time.

 

IMHO, Yang-ey workouts are honestly plenty to ensure you are at an optimal lung capacity. .02

[Sifu ReL]

i suppose that's why you require a strong body to do this kind of training.

 

 

btw,

 

people say you're good with breathing practices, and from reading your posts about it i tend to agree with them. can i ask you something, what do you think is, in your experience, the most effective way to increase lung capacity. the question is related to the topic, as most of the practices of neigong include breathing as a component.

 

thanks!

 

i thnk if you take slower-longer-deeper breaths it should increase. most masters breath very slow/ silent breaths

[thelerner]

My Aikido Sensei had an extremely long breath cycle gave this advice: Breath like a gourmet, sip the air, in slow relaxed appreciation.

 

Early on I got one of Silent Grounds Breathing CD's. This one was just timed tones. Starting with a tone getting louder for an 8 count then lower for an 8 count. Next was 10-10 all the way up to 50-50. Having on my ipod makes its an ideal tool for lengthening my breath, I set the ipod on repeat and when I'm comfortable enough with a rhythm I'll move to the next longer setting.

 

Insight Timer is an app that does similar timing, but any old metronome can be used. It's a tool that needs to be discarded eventually so you could 'just breath' naturally, but by using the tool you're natural breath evolves long, smooth and deep.

[宁]

My Aikido Sensei had an extremely long breath cycle gave this advice: Breath like a gourmet, sip the air, in slow relaxed appreciation.

 

Great tip, i discovered that by myself. When everything fails, return to breathing, it's life.

 

@Joeblast,

 

that a great tip also, entrainment breating, coherent breathing. It seems to be responsible for creating a specific state of physiological confort and efficiency in the body, called 'the zone'.

there are devices that train with them, biofeedback-ish, i don't like them that much but the idea is brilliant.

thanks, and keep adding.

 

I'm currently reading Jim's book on his experience, interesting tips there about the practice. For instance, he says that level 2 is a continuation of level one, that is, you have the same meditation. What differs is an additional isometric exercise deviced to compress and enlarge the capacity of the LDT.

 

he also adds some specifics about level one practice: it includes three factors

 

1, meditation, which is a specific state, reach-able via concentration

 

2, breathing practice,

 

[i have reasons to believe that the poster shaq 786 already shared this part as followes:

 

Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:06 PM

My question is

1. how long do I wait after masturbation before I practice my energy cultivation?

 

2. And how long do I wait after practicing energy cultivation so that I can masturbate?

 

 

Here are the methods that I use for energy cultivation:

 

1. Meditation focusing on the dan tien only, breathing in deeply and holding it for 5 seconds and releasing it fully and holding that for 5 seconds. Stomach expands on inhalation and collapses on exhalation.

 

2. I also do, meditation focusing on the dan tien only, breathing in deeply and holding it for 5 seconds and releasing it fully and holding that for 5 seconds. BUT this time the Stomach collapses inward on inhalation and expands on exhalation.

and 3, a specific detail used for gathering yin energy, which i derived from Mike's post as being practicing on the ground.

 

Edited July 27, 2012 by 宁

[Diamond Spectrum]

By clearing I mean emptying your cup, your mind.

By opening I mean creating space inside yourself, your vessel.

By circulating I mean Gung, Work.

By filling I mean relaxing, flowing, going with your work; cultivation; what is empty is filled full.

By balancing I mean creating harmony.

By closing I mean tying a ribbon on your accomplishment; and preseting your personal gifts to the world.

 

"Purple Light Comes from the East"

Edited July 27, 2012 by Diamond Spectrum

[kevincann]

My observation:

 

A 'full chakra' causes a rubbing effect between the flow within this time strata and the core essence

within this chakra, which is a tiny silver thread going back towards the 'core', which is in a different

time strata.

 

Chakras are 'time portals', which provide access to different snapshots of time, catching the One

pattern at different stages of unfolding, since the original spanda or primal desire in formlessness

unfolds into all that we know and see and are.

 

When the yang energy you are filling the chakra with starts to pass through the 'portal', then there

is a flow of the yin energy from the other side of the portal into our system.

 

When this mutual flow occurs, which I call the pattern of the seven twistings, then and only then

may the chakra considered to be 'open'.

 

Love,

 

Kev

[joeblast]

Great tip, i discovered that by myself. When everything fails, return to breathing, it's life.

 

@Joeblast,

 

that a great tip also, entrainment breating, coherent breathing. It seems to be responsible for creating a specific state of physiological confort and efficiency in the body, called 'the zone'.

there are devices that train with them, biofeedback-ish, i don't like them that much but the idea is brilliant.

thanks, and keep adding.

Sure So going by the premise that each component of breath has input on the overall energetic dynamic, I made a correlation to the output from a dyno readout from a car's engine. Power plotted vertically, consumption plotted horizontally. Each component will have a 'readout' and each will have its own timing and distance to travel. The idea there is to take the 70% range and figure out for oneself where the 'power band' is for each component. But not just 'power,' for the curve responds differently depending on input-effort - as effort increases, consumption increases, which limits the harvest-able energy potentials and also has a cascade of neural and bodily effects that serve to crank the system up into a higher consumption state. So the idea there is to find a relative consumption minima corresponding to a relative energetic maxima. Spend some time with each component and give it honest assessment. Once the relative local energetic maximas have been identified then it is on to combining them and making them coherent - and coincident, since the components wont necessarily naturally come to culmination concurrently - and once that starts to click, then begin to assemble those vectors at the dantien, the more coherent the larger the amplitude, the greater the flux density.

 

Its here where the utter and complete stillness assists greatly, for there are QM rules for combining amplitudes that states something about the apparatus;

 

if we have two amplitudes, let's just keep it simple and only consider two; a=3 and b=4, for the sake of argument:

 

-if the events happen in sequence, multiply the amplitudes: 3x4=12

-if the events are in coherence but can be distinguished, square the multiples then add: 9+16=25

-if the events cannot be distinguished, add before absolute squaring - 3+4=7, ^2=49

 

 

ergo,

 

 

When practicing, events not in coherence will have the lesser outcome;

 

In refining, one finds coherence yet events are at least partly still of the mind and thus distinguishable;

 

Practice until the foreground fades away, background becomes the foreground - and certain events within will start to become indistinguishable, producing the most efficacious result.

 

 

Only when you truly attenuate the cranial nerves will the mind quiet and allow for the greater combination of amplitudes.

[fizix]

My Aikido Sensei had an extremely long breath cycle gave this advice: Breath like a gourmet, sip the air, in slow relaxed appreciation.

Truly sagacious advice. Excellent mindfulness.

[forestofclarity]

Of all the qigong teachers I've encountered, the most compelling for me were the teachings from Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. His basic teaching was open up and let go. His qi theory was that a loose, open body allowed the flow of qi, so it was more important to let go rather than try to focus on one thing.

 

To take it a step further, for me, it is not just stillness that does the trick, but a relaxed, perhaps almost a playful openess. I've been on retreats where I've had amazing mystical experiences after long periods of disciplined concentration. But in life, I get the most energy not out of concentration, but out of letting go of all things (as much as I am able).

 

Strangely, the most profound qi practice I've found is sitting and cultivating letting openness and letting go.

 

 

We see simmilarities like these in many systems. They add their specific vibration via their particular focus, and all sorts of methods that accompany STILLNESS.

 

Stillness filles the body with Qi.

 

'When the body is still, the jing stays, when the emotions are tranquil, the Qi stays, when the Mind is still, the spirit returns' ~ Forgot the author...

[kevincann]

Of all the qigong teachers I've encountered, the most compelling for me were the teachings from Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. His basic teaching was open up and let go. His qi theory was that a loose, open body allowed the flow of qi, so it was more important to let go rather than try to focus on one thing.

 

To take it a step further, for me, it is not just stillness that does the trick, but a relaxed, perhaps almost a playful openess. I've been on retreats where I've had amazing mystical experiences after long periods of disciplined concentration. But in life, I get the most energy not out of concentration, but out of letting go of all things (as much as I am able).

 

Strangely, the most profound qi practice I've found is sitting and cultivating letting openness and letting go.

 

There is much to be said for your approach.

 

The body is indeed a miniature microcosm of the macrocosm; but when we are 'over fastidious' with our

thoughts, emotions and practices, we put a subtle tension on our entire system, and this kills

progress.

 

We also become 'spiritual' instead of 'alive'.

 

The ancient yoga masters first derived their practices by watching nature; many of the yoga practices

that are done today (sambhavi, mulabandha, bastrika etc) are things the body found itself doing

naturally.

 

I love the quote about the spirit returning home.

 

It is extremely well said.

 

Love,

 

Kev

[mjjbecker]

 

if a 'wannabe daoist' wishes to find out more, the only other way (other than be formally accepted as indoor student) is to try to piece together all the pieces of puzzle that exist as free information ~ i'm refering to posts from posters like Practitioner, YM, and some others etc.

 

 

I think it is REALLY important for someone to consider very deeply WHAT their 'end-goal' is. The core, not the side-show. I think people-all people-do get caught up on the seemingly 'cool stuff'. That ISN'T the core though, but it can offer suggestions towards what a person's core purpose is.

 

My own feeling is it really is about reconnecting with the Dao and removing the blinkers of separation. Words don't do it, and only suggest at it. Experience is what is relevent.

 

On the subject of teachers and lineages, I believe that we already come from a lineage before we are born into this 'life'. We are the sum total of ALL our experiences through different incarnations. That is why you have to 'feel' rather than 'think' your direction. Square pegs don't fit in round holes.

 

There is a HUGE amount of information available now. There is access to teachers. Getting those things is not the hard part. The hard part is the 'gong fu'. It is putting in the time and effort in practice. For some it will be easier than others. Personally I've hard to work and work and work and work. Progress through thousands of hours of effort, thousands of miles of travel and yes, thousands of dollars of expense. You can't have it all, and there are choices-hard choices-to be made.

 

I think I've said it before, but one of the most profound experiences I had was practicing a qigong set I learned from a book. My first qigong book and first qigong practice infact: The 18 step taiji qigong. It can be found in books, online and probably on Youtube also. Of course it lacks the 'cool factor' because it is not exclusive and exotic. It's just very good. Try it. Put in a few hundred hours of practice and see where it leads you. Consistent effort is the key. And BTW, it will do wonders for your breathing .

 

Otherwise, if you must have a lineage and high level qigong, I will break out my stuck record and once again recommend what Michael Lomax-'Ya Mu' teaches. The 'Gift of the Tao' exercises move qi, gather qi and work the main energy centers in some 'really cool' ways. And you might just find those blinkers leave you as well.

 

One final note. If you are going to attempt 'forced' practices-breath retention, dynamic tension, etc.-you REALLY want to do so under the supervision of a GOOD teacher. Do it wrong and you won't have to worry about your masturbation problems again, because you will be impotent. Other fun aspects include internal rupturing of organs with the possible happy side effect of death. You have been warned (again). I don't say this to be a spoilsport, but because I genuinely don't want anyone to cause themselves, and their loved ones, misery and pain. There is too much of this in the world as it is.

[Birch]

kali Yuga, dude, apparently. Not that I'm buying it.

[宁]

up to now no one denied that the respective breathing practice [as posted by user shaq786] is part of level one, interesting..

 

@joeblast,

 

i believe that the entrainement state generated by coherent breathing is part of the media that generates the state of 'meditation' needed to FILL. good info. i'll be sure to read your article again.

 

@thelerner,

 

i've read something interesting in jim's book yesterday, with regards to your thread about HEAT filling the LDT:

~it's not heat per se that fills it, heat is an effect of gathering Qi in that area. it seems it's the first of two signs that accompany the progress in FILLING, the second sign apparently is harder to obtain, but it does not specify what it is.

~ the book makes alot of refference about differences between qigong and neigong methodologies, @RW, i think it'd be a nice addition to the practice books you hold dear.

 

@Mike,

 

as far as i know neigong and qigong's primal difference is that qigong works only with yang energy [mainly heat generating practices], meanwhile neigong works with yin and yang together.

is that a valid criteria? how does it apply to s-m?

also time is another, it took many practitioners more that 6 years to accomplish level one [jim needed 10 if i recall]. the difference in time and dedication should show up later as efficiency.

 

btw, LEVEL 3 info: it seems that the practice for this level takes more than 10 hours of dedicated work PER DAY. talk about commintment.

 

@RW,

 

i don't think you need to know more about other systems, sometimes it makes you mind move around too much, and leaves too little time for practice hehe. i admit i'm fascinated by the methodologies and the reasoning behind them, this is a hobby of mine, i like to know, i have to know

but aside that, i have my own practice [been keeping at it ~slothfully, modern distractions are a great opponent~ for a few years now].

 

in terms of efficiency, i think s-m is more appropriate practice to modern times, it seems to require less dedication and time compared to traditional neigong [as in mopai], and from the testimonials i've read, the efficiency is not half bad!

 

also, you can't use s-m for combat purposes, many say it's because it's not deviced for that, but i think the real answer is the power generated by s-m is insufficient for that purpose. i maybe wrong, but it kind of makes sense that way. also, i believe s-m works with FILLING rather than OPENING the center [as explained before], which make it's effects more qigong-like.

 

this is not meant as judgemental and cheap criticism ~ many will say the proof is in the pudding. still, you don't need to be a genius to put 2 and 2 together. each person should choose what they feel it's more appropriate to their goals, energetic constitution, as well as the amount of time and discipline one wants to consume with such an endeavour. [i'm a firm believer in 'the more one... the more one...' equation.]

 

thanks for reading,

[mjjbecker]

 

 

No one, that I have seen, has accurately described the level one practice, online, on this forum, or on any other forum. Neither myself nor anyone else who learned it is about to correct the various false assumptions that have been made. The bit about the oath and not teaching it. You might have read about that somewhere?

 

Either you're not reading through what I am writing or you just don't get it. You are fixated on what you've read in some books and have no interest in learning, as learning requires altering a viewpoint, even if it is a dearly held one. I recommend you go back through the various posts I've made and spend some time thinking about what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote. I strongly recommend you take the time to read-and think about-'Ya Mu's' and 'Kempomaster's' posts.

 

As for Kostas, if you'd listened-and payed attention-to the audio interview he gave last year, you would know that his own opinions have evolved over time.

[宁]

@Mike

 

 

of course his opinions evolved [though it's still unclear to what extent] and so will mine, this is the whole point of this topic, to confront ideas and paradigms to people that know more about the subject.

 

so by all means, ram into them, i'll be happy to pick up the pieces that still stand, i.e, not rejected, or rejected without valid arguments [this is an open invitation].

 

i'm NOT a mopai wannabe, please understand. i have deep respect for this school, teachers and students, but i have my own practice.

what i am looking for is PERSPECTIVE.

that is what kosta's and jim's book offered, for better or for worse, and those perspectives changed the way we look at chi cultivation phenomena in the west. i'm hoping to piece it all together in one thread, for refference.

so thank you either way ~

 

 

 

there are some other questions that come in mind [not 'aimed' at you but you're welcome to respond as well if you feel so]:

 

~ how does the specific neigong energy interact with the body's own bioenergy? it seems that they do to a certain extent, as training seems to ease and even heal some ailments, however the process is still fuzzy, because you'll get improvement in some parts, and no response in others. hmm.

 

~ regarding that, if the neigong energy does interact fully with the bioenergy, would it primarely focus on repairing physical damage? that will explain why more aged practitioners, as well as the ones that have (minor) health problems, take longer to FILL the center.