Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) After numerous decades of reading the Tao Te Ching and my recent study of the Chaung Tzu, I have come to the conclusion that the notion of Wu Wei, as it is taught by the majority of Taoist, is not in line with what Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were actually teaching, but instead, most likely originated as a means to bridge Taoist and Buddhist philosophy. In other words it allowed the Taoist philosophy, one that is intrinsically linked to a deeper attachment with one's world, to become more palatable to the predominant Buddhist philosophy advocating detachment. I was wondering what other people thought regarding this and if anyone can actually find any passages within the Tao Te Ching that speak of Wu Wei as it's taught by most Taoist? Keep in mind I'm not talking about the Western bastardization of the philosophy, the so called, "go with the flow" Wu Wei, but the actual process taught in empty mind meditation and the early taoist schools. Aaron edit- Just to clarify, I'm using the Eastern notion of Wu Wei which is precipitated upon Wei Wu Wei, or action without action. The predominant belief, as I understand it, is focused on spontaneity, or action that is influenced intuitively, rather than logically. One acts, not because of thought or belief in the value of the action, but because it is an intuitive response to what occurs. This means the action doesn't necessarily NEED to be done, but rather is an intuitive response to what is occurring in the environment around the person experiencing wei wu wei. Edited July 31, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 31, 2012 I will wait to speak until after a couple of our members who read the Chinese language have spoken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) If wu wei is a real thing, as in a state of being then it doesnt require anyone to be ,or read chinese to recognize it but their interpretation of what is written would be most pertinant that is , if there was concensus about what was meant which I dont believe there is, or if there was concensus about traditional paths which I haven seen. Words are at best ,vague agreed upon symbols Chinese and English speakers could both of course, contribute their opinion but many, would not be considered unbiased, and as Chuang tzu commented who would be able to act as arbiter between them? Doesnt the forum regarding TTC and Chuang tzu verify what I am saying? More specificity may be required , and in the presence of it resolutions may present themselves. Stosh Edited July 31, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thetaoiseasy Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Here's my interpretation. I read both the chinese and english version. Wu wei does not mean doing nothing. It means doing nothing extra. It means always hitting the mark. Contrary to the implication of doing "nothing," achieving this perfect balance of wu-wei is not easy and requires discipline: its like carrying a bucket of water on your head in the dark. The reason the Tao Te Ching seems to emphasize a more passive approach--which is often construed as being lazy and undisciplined--is that the tendency of the world is to do too much, to overexert oneself. Recognizing this trend, Lao Tze sought to correct the extremist tendencies that he saw at the time. He reminds us that we don't need that much effort to be efficacious in life. In fact, extreme effort should be avoided, as extreme effort will always lead to extreme inertia. So doing just enough everyday, living out our normal lives with responsibility, is sufficient to achieve great things. A thousand mile journey begins on the land you walk on. Note that you still have to walk, but you just take the first step, and split the journey in many steps. You walk just enough everyday to reach your goals. In other words, do what needs to be done--but nothing more--is the true spirit of wu-wei. Sometimes it will mean sitting on your ass and "going with the flow" as the bastardized western interpretation. Sometimes it means working hard to achieve your goals. Both are valid, but neither should be taken as the rule. Furthermore, the Tao Te Ching teaches us how to approach meditation with "Wu Wei". Lao Tze tells us that if the king does not interfere with the kingdom, the kingdom will thrive. What does he mean on a deeper level? The mind is the king, the body is the kingdom. When we stop coming with miraculous ways to manipulate health--as modern science is trying to do--our body can and will function well. When we are still in our meditation--when our mind stops machinating the future--qi begins to move naturally throughout our meridians, and our body is benefited thousand fold. This not a matter of detachment, but a matter of efficacy. Edited July 31, 2012 by thetaoiseasy 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clarity Posted July 31, 2012 Nice post and comments. Another way to look at Wu Wei: Spontaneity of action Or as my teacher used to say, doing things for the sake of doing them. No effort, no thought of reward or punishment; doing just what needs to be done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Here's my interpretation. I read both the chinese and english version. Wu wei does not mean doing nothing. It means doing nothing extra. It means always hitting the mark. Contrary to the implication of doing "nothing," achieving this perfect balance of wu-wei is not easy and requires discipline: its like carrying a bucket of water on your head in the dark. The reason the Tao Te Ching seems to emphasize a more passive approach--which is often construed as being lazy and undisciplined--is that the tendency of the world is to do too much, to overexert oneself. Recognizing this trend, Lao Tze sought to correct the extremist tendencies that he saw at the time. He reminds us that we don't need that much effort to be efficacious in life. In fact, extreme effort should be avoided, as extreme effort will always lead to extreme inertia. So doing just enough everyday, living out our normal lives with responsibility, is sufficient to achieve great things. A thousand mile journey begins on the land you walk on. Note that you still have to walk, but you just take the first step, and split the journey in many steps. You walk just enough everyday to reach your goals. In other words, do what needs to be done--but nothing more--is the true spirit of wu-wei. Sometimes it will mean sitting on your ass and "going with the flow" as the bastardized western interpretation. Sometimes it means working hard to achieve your goals. Both are valid, but neither should be taken as the rule. Furthermore, the Tao Te Ching teaches us how to approach meditation with "Wu Wei". Lao Tze tells us that if the king does not interfere with the kingdom, the kingdom will thrive. What does he mean on a deeper level? The mind is the king, the body is the kingdom. When we stop coming with miraculous ways to manipulate health--as modern science is trying to do--our body can and will function well. When we are still in our meditation--when our mind stops machinating the future--qi begins to move naturally throughout our meridians, and our body is benefited thousand fold. This not a matter of detachment, but a matter of efficacy. Just to clarify before this gets too far off topic, I'm actually not asking for an interpretation so much as actual evidence that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu advocated Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching. I'm not sure if the majority of practicing religious and philosophical Taoists would consider this Wu Wei, but rather a westernization of the idea. So again, not so much just an interpretation, but actual passages that refer to Wu Wei directly and advocate it. Thanks for your post though, it's a very nice post. I'm wondering where you came up with this interpretation? Could you cite your sources? I'd be interested in reading more on this take of Taoist action. Aaron Edited July 31, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thetaoiseasy Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) My apologies. Before I post, what definition of Wu-Wei are looking for in the Tao Te Ching that you are skeptical it contains? I gave my interpretation based on my readings of the Tao Te Ching; I can cite those passages, but I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at. Just to clarify before this gets too far off topic, I'm actually not asking for an interpretation so much as actual evidence that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu advocated Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching. I'm not sure if the majority of practicing religious and philosophical Taoists would consider this Wu Wei, but rather a westernization of the idea. So again, not so much just an interpretation, but actual passages that refer to Wu Wei directly and advocate it. Thanks for your post though, it's a very nice post. I'm wondering where you came up with this interpretation? Could you cite your sources? I'd be interested in reading more on this take of Taoist action. Aaron Edited July 31, 2012 by thetaoiseasy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) My apologies. Before I post, what definition of Wu-Wei are looking for in the Tao Te Ching that you are skeptical it contains? I gave my interpretation based on my readings of the Tao Te Ching; I can cite those passages, but I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at. I added what is the general interpretation in the original post... Just to clarify, I'm using the Eastern notion of Wu Wei which is precipitated upon Wei Wu Wei, or action without action. The predominant belief, as I understand it, is focused on spontaneity, or action that is influenced intuitively, rather than logically. One acts, not because of thought or belief in the value of the action, but because it is an intuitive response to what occurs. This means the action doesn't necessarily NEED to be done, but rather is an intuitive response to what is occurring in the environment around the person experiencing wei wu wei. Also could you elaborate on where you came up with your description? I've heard a bunch of people explain it in the same way, but I can't track down the original source. I found the phrase "Do what needs to be done" in a translation by Feng and English, could that have been where you got the idea? Edited July 31, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 31, 2012 Help me to understand how wu-wei is "not easy and requires discipline." I would think that authentic wu-wei is easy and requires anti-discipline. Ouch! on the valid counter-point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thetaoiseasy Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Sure, for the sages, Wu-wei is easy and requires no discipline. They know better. But for the average man in his ignorance, it takes one thousand years to learn how to do. It takes discipline to learn how to do stuff the easy way -- so in that sense, it's hard. If you are studying for an important exam, what's the most logical way to go about it? To split it into parts, to study a little everyday. If you are on a workout regimen, the best way to go about it is to be consistent and put in a little time everyday. By the test day, you are prepared and don't need to cram. By the end of three months, with a solid 2 hours each day of exercise, you achieved your goals. Yet how many of us can do that? Very few. Why? That is the discipline of Wu-Wei. What do most people do? They study 10 hours one day, and then they slack off the entire week because they are burnt out. They work out for 3 hours one day, and they are too sore to exercise the entire week. Which description speaks to discipline? The first method of breaking thing downs into pieces, or second--the crash and burn method? I'd say the first is closer to wu-wei and definitely requires discipline. So I agree with your counterpoint. The first method is easy in the sense that you don't overexert yourself and you do a little everyday to reach your goals in a efficient way. But hard in the sense that...how many people listen and can follow the sage's advice? The sages know Wu-wei is easier and anti-discipline, like you said. But for the average person, they must discipline themselves to take the easier path. People love the hard way! Okay, I won't post anymore. Sorry for the hijack, Aaron! : / Help me to understand how wu-wei is "not easy and requires discipline." I would think that authentic wu-wei is easy and requires anti-discipline. Edited July 31, 2012 by thetaoiseasy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted July 31, 2012 Also could you elaborate on where you came up with your description? I've heard a bunch of people explain it in the same way, but I can't track down the original source. I found the phrase "Do what needs to be done" in a translation by Feng and English, could that have been where you got the idea? The reason you are having trouble understanding the concept of Wu Wei was because you are only absorbing it from the Western source. Those who read Chinese do absorb it from the more authentic source of native interpretation. What we read, you will not see it in the western source. We can only presented the idea to you as the way we understand them. Even though we cite you the source, you will not be able to read and interpret them. The bastardized "do nothing" notion has been locked in the minds of the westerners too long for them to be changed. Based on my previous communication with the people that do not have an open mind, except a few, are not willing to accept the corrected meaning of Wu Wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 I'm not too knowledgeable about the interpretation you gave, and I'm curious to hear what others think and contribute. So I'll sit back and wait for a response. But as for my interpretation, here are the main passages: "Know the bright, yet keep to the dark." When you remain weak and unnoticeable, you contain unlimited potential for growth. When your flame is bright and expansive, you're going to extinguish at any second. It's better to remain weak and full of potential and to pursue ones goals in a safe way, without burning out. This has to the do with the transformation of yin and yang. "Tackle difficulties when they are easy. Accomplish great things when they are small. Handle what is going to be rough when it is still smooth. Control what has not yet formed its force." "A tree so big it can fill the span of a man's arms grows from a tiny sprout. A terrace nine stories high rises from a shovelful of earth. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Lao Tze doesn't tell us to not construct terraces, go on journeys, or to plant trees, or to not tackle difficulties. We are told to accomplish great things in a sustainable way. We still walk our journeys like everyone in the world, but we allot a certain amount of miles each day, so we don't overtax our bodies. We still construct terraces, but we only shovel a certain amount of earth each day. "Managing a big country is like cooking small fish. The more you stir them, the less their shape can be maintained." "When serving the public, use upright means. When commanding troops in war, employ the principle of surprise. To win the world, do nothing to interfere with it." In chinese literature, managing a country can teach us how to manage our bodies, and vice verse. For example, the 5 organs in TCM are often assigned to government positions, most notably the heart is called the emperor that contains the mind. If the mind emperor stays quiet, the country (the body) can be maintained. This is also referenced where bigger countries (the mind) becomes subservient to smaller countries (the body), like a lower river being the gathering place of all streams. Do that which is not done by doing. Make that which is not made by making. Taste that which cannot be distinguished by taste. Even in quietness, there is subtle movement. You don't do anything, but there is still something done. When you are completely still in your meditation, you feel the subtle energy traveling through all the meridians like water flowing through a steady stream. You see light that can't be seen with your eyes. You hear sounds that aren't heard with your ears. You tastes fragrances that aren't tasted. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Are you tasting? I could go on, but I don't want to hijack your thread. Hope you get some answers! Actually I don't think you've answered my question, but you have given a very thorough defense of your own interpretation of Wu Wei. I'm not arguing with your reasoning, nor will I debate your semantics, however I don't believe what you're talking about is Wu Wei. After all "do what needs to be done" is not "action without effort" or even "action without action". So in my mind you haven't really proven that Lao Tzu advocated Wu Wei, but rather that he advocated frugality in one's actions, which is really a no brainer. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 The reason you are having trouble understanding the concept of Wu Wei was because you are only absorbing it from the Western source. Those who read Chinese do absorb it from the more authentic source of native interpretation. What we read, you will not see it in the western source. We can only presented the idea to you as the way we understand them. Even though we cite you the source, you will not be able to read and interpret them. The bastardized "do nothing" notion has been locked in the minds of the westerners too long for them to be changed. Based on my previous communication with the people that do not have an open mind, except a few, are not willing to accept the corrected meaning of Wu Wei. Alright, I'll bite, so what is the actual definition of wu wei? Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thetaoiseasy Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) I think I'm not reading your intentions right, so I'm going to sit tight and just read other peoples responses. But for the record, I do equate "do what needs to be done" with "action without effort" as well as frugrality in one's actions. Sorry for the hijack! Actually I don't think you've answered my question, but you have given a very thorough defense of your own interpretation of Wu Wei. I'm not arguing with your reasoning, nor will I debate your semantics, however I don't believe what you're talking about is Wu Wei. After all "do what needs to be done" is not "action without effort" or even "action without action". So in my mind you haven't really proven that Lao Tzu advocated Wu Wei, but rather that he advocated frugality in one's actions, which is really a no brainer. Aaron Edited July 31, 2012 by thetaoiseasy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 Agreed. I'm going to sit still and see other people's replies! sorry for the hijack! No worries. It was a worthwhile hijack and perhaps we should start a new thread where we can talk about this. It's definitely a topic worth exploring. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted July 31, 2012 Alright, I'll bite, so what is the actual definition of wu wei? Aaron Read and grok this thread.... Wu Wei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Read and grok this thread.... Wu Wei I don't think your interpretation is correct either. In case you missed it (I did add it as an edit later), here is my understanding of Wu Wei as it is interpreted by the Taoist practitioners in the East... edit- Just to clarify, I'm using the Eastern notion of Wu Wei which is precipitated upon Wei Wu Wei, or action without action. The predominant belief, as I understand it, is focused on spontaneity, or action that is influenced intuitively, rather than logically. One acts, not because of thought or belief in the value of the action, but because it is an intuitive response to what occurs. This means the action doesn't necessarily NEED to be done, but rather is an intuitive response to what is occurring in the environment around the person experiencing wei wu wei. Aaron Edited July 31, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted July 31, 2012 I think that the concept of Wu Wei could be related to the sadhu's principle of "performing no karma". Karma means action. A yogi should avoid action. This is a key to understand the ancient principle of wu-wei. Because there are certain actions that even a wandering sadhu cannot avoid, the concern is not "the action itself", but the point is to cultivate detachment. When you act without attachments, without putting the "I" in the actions... you are in wu-wei (no-karma) mode. Sorry for bad english Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) edit- Just to clarify, I'm using the Eastern notion of Wu Wei which is precipitated upon Wei Wu Wei, or action without action. The predominant belief, as I understand it, is focused on spontaneity, or action that is influenced intuitively, rather than logically. One acts, not because of thought or belief in the value of the action, but because it is an intuitive response to what occurs. This means the action doesn't necessarily NEED to be done, but rather is an intuitive response to what is occurring in the environment around the person experiencing wei wu wei. In order to be "wei wu wei", one needs to know what Wu Wei is to begin with. Again, "action without action" is another one of those bastardizing chaotic Western-Eastern speculations. It is not any different than the "do nothing' for Wu Wei. PS.... I will cease further participation in this subject. I think I had said enough about Wu Wei elsewhere..... Edited July 31, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) I think that the concept of Wu Wei could be related to the sadhu's principle of "performing no karma". Karma means action. A yogi should avoid action. This is a key to understand the ancient principle of wu-wei. Because there are certain actions that even a wandering sadhu cannot avoid, the concern is not "the action itself", but the point is to cultivate detachment. When you act without attachments, without putting the "I" in the actions... you are in wu-wei (no-karma) mode. Sorry for bad english I appreciate your response Dao rain Tao. I think you're interpretation is much in line with what I was saying regarding wu wei being an action that is spontaneous and born of intuition, rather than logic. In your description one could say the intuitive act frees one from Karmic debt, because it is not an act of selfishness or even self so much, rather it is an act of harmonious interaction, being at one with the world. Of course this is why I say it isn't really something that one can attach to the Tao Te Ching or Chuang Tzu, simply because neither actually talk in detail or advocate this kind of thing. At most it was extrapolated from what Lao Tzu said in the Tao Teh Ching. Aaron Edited July 31, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted July 31, 2012 Nice post and comments. Another way to look at Wu Wei: Spontaneity of action Or as my teacher used to say, doing things for the sake of doing them. No effort, no thought of reward or punishment; doing just what needs to be done. Crazy Wisdom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 31, 2012 I am glad we are getting things done here without intention. No, I'm not ready to speak to this yet. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted August 1, 2012 All exists here and now You have never switched your place. You are not switching your place. You will not switch your place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted August 1, 2012 All exists here and now You have never switched your place. You are not switching your place. You will not switch your place. Not ever ever ever ever, never never never? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted August 1, 2012 Not ever ever ever ever, never never never? For ever ever ever; never never never! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
