Meaning clear light

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tibetan_Ice, on 13 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

 

Did you know that Padmasambhava is Bon?

 

I hope he doesn't since it's nonsense. He's Buddhist.

 

link: http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Padmasambhava/7442

Or, in the case of the Bon tradition, Padmasambhava became the link to the Bon that existed prior to Buddhism's arrival in Tibet.

 

 

link: http://bonpo.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/the-three-types-of-bon/

 

The Yungdrung Bon tradition within ZhangZhung does not look at Padmasambhava as an enemy or opponent of the pure teaching of Lord Tonpa Shenrab. Rather, it frowns on any unnecessary innovations and anything that is not from the authentic source, Buddha Tonpa. Viewed in the right light, Padmasambhava becomes a friend to the purity of Bon and can be seen as the equivelant of Buddha Tonpa himself, much in the same was we see Amitabha of the Pure Land sect of Buddhism as being the same person as Buddha Tonpa. Neither does the true Bon speak disparagingly of Buddha Shakyamuni. Rather, those who practice Pure Shenpo, and some other Bon traditions understand Shakyamuni to have been a disciple of Buddha Tonpa.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmasambhava

 

Tantric cycles related to Padmasambhava are not just practiced by the Nyingma, they even gave rise to a new offshoot of Bon which emerged in the 14th century called the New Bön.

[Jeff]

Yeah but that doesn't refer to the actual heart.

 

Its like saying barbell squats are the "heart" of weight training.

 

An alternative classification puts yangti as the highest literature, and yangti doesn't translate to heart at all.

 

http://www.thlib.org.../01/germano/b8/

 

You seem to be misunderstand the meaning of the word heart. I am not referring to the gross level body organ. Though it is an innermost and secret teaching, Anyen Rinpoche (The Union of Dzogchen and Bodhichitta) touches on it...

 

"When Tsara Dharmkirti Rinpoche passed away at the age of ninety-two, he attained a sign called "Heart, Tongue and Eyes," which is one of the signs of highest realization that comes as a result of the Dzogchen Teachings."

 

Additionally, I didn't see how you link disagreed with the heart point. A major point of the text seemed to be regarding how the Brahmin tradition was "appropriated". Which at it's highest levels is heart based.

 

Best, Jeff

[Simple_Jack]

Did you know that Padmasambhava is Bon?

 

Are you sure you're not mistaking it with Vairocana? He was a Bonpo, before being sent to Samye.

 

I hope he doesn't since it's nonsense. He's Buddhist.

 

Nope, I don't. Yet, it is pretty complicated, since he is supposed to be associated with some 'New Bon' material.

 

For anyone that's interested, here's an overview of the Bon tradition: http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=253

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

It has nothing to do with any conceptions of "heart." When reading "innermost heart essence," it's akin to saying that it's the "true intention" of the teachings; or, that it represents the summation of all the teachings.

 

Please see my response to Alwayson. But, yes, I would agree, our "true intentions" and being are found in the "heart".

 

Best, Jeff

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

Please, stop adding your own interpretations to things.

 

Is that different than what you do?

 

Also, what is your interpretation of the yang gsang bla na med pa'i sde?

 

Best, Jeff

 

(edit - that => than)

Edited January 14, 2013 by Jeff

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

Yes, because my interpretations are informed. Also, I don't demand that people believe or agree with the things I type.

 

I have never read the text, that you're talking about.

 

 

I would disagree that I am the one who has ever demanded that someone agree with what I type.

 

If you are not at all "informed" with the topic, then why are you "sharing" your interpretation?

 

Best, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

Jeff please don't start with your heart stuff again.

 

Whenever you are asked to explain it, you just say "Feeling with the heart is not a technique that can be taught".

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I have a feeling its going to be pages of Jeff talking about "feeling with the heart", yet never describing what that means.

Edited January 14, 2013 by alwayson

[Jeff]

I have a feeling its going to be pages of Jeff talking about "feeling with the heart", yet never describing what that means.

 

 

No worries... I have learned my lesson and will "stay" within the interpretations of Buddhist texts in Buddhist threads.

 

Best, Jeff

 

p.s. Feeling with the heart requires being able to calm the four winds (tummo) and have them come to reside in the heart.

 

p.p.s Anyone interested in a "Six Yoga's of Naropa" thread? Maybe discuss the practices and what happens in the "Completion Stage"?

[konchog uma]

i wouldn't pretend to practice the inner yogas without a teacher.

 

except maybe phowa, and even then, for more than just mundane visualizations you'll need some great luck.

 

im doing ngondro, and intend to take tantric vows when im done, and then maybe i'll learn the inner yogas, and even THEN i wouldnt discuss them in a thread on the internet.

[RongzomFan]

p.s. Feeling with the heart requires being able to calm the four winds (tummo) and have them come to reside in the heart.

 

Tummo is pure yoga thing involving holding the breath, mulabandha etc.

 

And you need transmission.

Edited January 14, 2013 by alwayson

[Jeff]

Tummo is pure yoga thing involving holding the breath, mulabandha etc.

 

And you need transmission.

 

Tummo is an "energy" thing and "yes" you do need a transmission. Here are some of Chogyal Namkai Norbu's words on it...

 

"Likewise, if we feel the need to engage in a practice such as tummo, which involves a complicated series of visualizations of cakras, channels, etc. then we need to know what its am is. So in these cases, one cannot say that there is nothing to meditation on because the meditation practice constitutes the express means to accomplish determined results."

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

Tummo is an "energy" thing

 

You are trying to make things New Ageish again.

[RongzomFan]

The "center channel" (dbu ma or avadhuti) is the whole arterial system, or more specifically the aorta. The two "side channels" are the venous system (roma or rasanā) and the spinal column and nervous system (rkyang ma or lalanā). A chakra is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves.

 

In the practice of tummo, the visualization of lower ends to the three channels is primarily used to focus body awareness in the subnavel area. Khumbaka, mulabandha and uddiyana bandhas force vāyu and ojas into the arterial system. The heart rate slows and the karmic winds suspend. Ojas itself has two stores within the body -- the heart and brain. Thus there is the visualization of blazing and dripping.

[Jeff]

The "center channel" (dbu ma or avadhuti) is the whole arterial system, or more specifically the aorta. The two "side channels" are the venous system (roma or rasanā) and the spinal column and nervous system (rkyang ma or lalanā). A chakra is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves.

 

In the practice of tummo, the visualization of lower ends to the three channels is primarily used to focus body awareness in the subnavel area. Khumbaka, mulabandha and uddiyana bandhas force vāyu and ojas into the arterial system. The heart rate slows and the karmic winds suspend. Ojas itself has two stores within the body -- the heart and brain. Thus there is the visualization of blazing and dripping.

 

This is an old discussion. Please quote Dzogchen masters rather than your own opinion when disagreeing with a Tibetan Dzogchen master.

 

"The Tantras are teachings based on the knowledge and application of energy" Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

Best, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

"The Tantras are teachings based on the knowledge and application of energy" Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

Best, Jeff

 

Except this isn't a quote of ChNN. So no dice.

[Pero]

TI, none of the quotes you posted say that Padmasambhava was a bonpo.

 

(also, will someone explain to me how in the world do I quote someone elses quote? It's been bugging ever since the remake of the forum but till now I've been too lazy to ask lol)

[Jeff]

Except this isn't a quote of ChNN. So no dice.

 

Do you read any of his books? It is common in most academic settings to give credit of a quote to the author of a book.

 

Page 43 of Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State.

 

"The Tantras are teachings based on the knowledge and application of energy" Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

[RongzomFan]

Its a translation.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

Its a translation.

 

Do you consider that a compelling argument? Do you have any quotes where CNN has said that he disagrees with (and disavows) all of the books (in English) where he is the author? Or, do you just disagree with CNN?

 

First you say "new age", next you deny he said it, then when faced with the facts, you deny the "correctness" of his book.

 

Which of CNN's books have you actually read?

 

Best, Jeff