Sonnon on Royal Court/Combat Cond.

[Smile]

The Dangers of the "Royal Court"

[Christoph]

I agree totally.I have been involved/worked in conventional fitness for almost 15 years and even though Sonnon's material can be rather pedantic I think it is an amazing health first approach that shifted my paradigm of fitness.

[Cameron]

I think a moderate approach to bodyweight excercises is great. Especially combined with qigong or yoga. Doing 500 squats or whatever every day the way Gama or Karl Gotch or whatever did is probably not the way to go. But 3-4 days a week and Yoga or stretching/Sonnon stuff on off days is good I think.

 

 

Those excercises are too hard for most people to do high numbers anyway so some intuflow or whatever is more realistic.

 

Plus there is the boredom factor which Americans like Yoda can't be bothered doing 5oo anything in a row and need to mix things up!

[forestofsouls]

I think a moderate approach to bodyweight excercises is great. Especially combined with qigong or yoga. Doing 500 squats or whatever every day the way Gama or Karl Gotch or whatever did is probably not the way to go. But 3-4 days a week and Yoga or stretching/Sonnon stuff on off days is good I think.

Those excercises are too hard for most people to do high numbers anyway so some intuflow or whatever is more realistic.

 

Most of the qigong and tai chi I've run across tend to condemn these sorts of exercises. Some say that developed, hardened muscles inhibit chi flow.

[Cameron]

Probably most 'purists' arent fans of vigourous excercises. I think they are good but you should keep everything balanced. As far as health goes..I don't think it's really necissary and would pick qigong over vigorous excercise but for cardio, endurance, overall strength and power I don't think these excercises can be beat.

 

I know it's a cheesy line but look at wild animals. They work with there bodyweight like crazy. Run, jump, climb wrestle etc.

 

Sonnon might argue that animals arent doing repetitive movments over and over again but more of a 'flow' type of excercise. And he might be right. But I don't think it's as dire as he says it is and there are many mor epeople that say they have benefited from Karl Gotch's/Matt Fureys excercises than been ahrmed by them.

 

Anyway, I don't really care. If you like Sonnon's stuff and think it's better or Fureys stuff is dangerous stick with that.

 

I'll be having my second knee surgery from a Brazillian Jiu Jitsu injury in two weeks so won't being doing shit for awhile anyway.

[Trunk]

When I saw the title of that by Sonnon, I just chalked it up to the usual bullshit criticism that one school often shovels towards another school. Just my snap judgement, is all. (Though I'm not convinced that bridges to the forehead are safe. Aside from that, though.)

[Yoda]

Americans like Yoda can't be bothered doing 5oo anything

 

Amen to that!

[forestofsouls]

Probably most 'purists' arent fans of vigourous excercises. I think they are good but you should keep everything balanced. As far as health goes..I don't think it's really necissary and would pick qigong over vigorous excercise but for cardio, endurance, overall strength and power I don't think these excercises can be beat.

 

I know it's a cheesy line but look at wild animals. They work with there bodyweight like crazy. Run, jump, climb wrestle etc.

 

I don't think its the vigor, but the tensing and the straining they object to. Many internal martial artists might practice quite vigorously, but they stay loose and relaxed. Like wild animals. Or tame animals. My puppy is very energetic, bouncing and springing all over the house. But she is always very light, relaxed, there is no tension or strain.

 

May your knee heal quickly. Perhaps less BJJ and more TCC?

Edited December 4, 2006 by forestofsouls

[Cameron]

If your tensing and straining while doing squats, pushups or bridging I don't think your doing them correctly. You should be loose and relaxed while doing them is my understanding.

 

Ime done with BJJ. And will most likely get into more internal MA next year.

 

I don't really see it so much as conscious decision making anymore. Whatever will be will be.

 

Cam

[mYTHmAKER]

From my limited understanding the royal court and similiar exercises

stress your body to the max. This is not the middle way. The way of Tao

If one chooses to do these they had better be properly aligned.

Animals tend not to over extend in their movement.

[Cameron]

One reason Ime sure it doesn't stress my body is I am always more relaxed after doing those excercises than before. And my body always gave me very positive feeling from doing them.

 

But you should do what you think is best. I can't comment on whether doing a pushup is the way of the Tao or not, not sure I can equate calisthenics as being counter or harmonous with Tao.

[DanC]

I dont buy this Royal Court exercises are bad business, these exercises are found in various Yoga

and Qigong books, the bridge for one is found in many DaoYin books and well as yoga books, the

hindu/tiger pushup is also found in Qigong/Yoga texts, its very similar to one of the Tibetan rites and

is also found in Tim Cartmells Xing Yi Nei Gong book. I for one dont think its balanced to do all exercises

soft and internal, we need to balance Yin and Yang, these 3 exercises work every muscle on the body

from head to toe, they also work your cadriovascular system as well as strengthen your internal organs.

They build strength, endurance and flexibility as well as enhance your build asthetically, after a session

of Hindu pushups and squats I am relaxed and have good rush from the endorphins, these exercises strengthen

you physically and mentally and I think they are an integral part of any taoists practices.

 

Daniel

[DanC]

Also check out John Peterson of bronzebowpublishing.com, this man performs sets of 300-500

hindu squats and pushups daily on top of his other exercises which includes bodyweight exercises,

isometrics and internal resistence exercises. He is the healthiest and strongest man I have ever seen

for his age, also what about Jack Lalane, is now in his 90's and is still lifting weights and doing calisthenics

and would probably knock most 90 year old Qigong masters on there arse in terms of strength and health.

I feel very strongly about how important these sort of exercises are in health and longevity and feel that

not doing exercises that increase and maintain muscular strength and endurance to be a very big mistake.

 

all comments are welcome..

 

Daniel

[Lozen]

For me personally, I've found that putting my weight on my heels and doing squats crossfit-style causes less pain/soreness/etc. than Furey style squats, and can actually be helpful for knee pain, etc.

[Christoph]

I think that Royal Court, heavy weight trianing ect definatley do have their benifits but is it sustainable without injury or pain?....not likely for average people.

 

More weight and more reps can only take you so far if you value health over performance.

Thats why I really dig the complexity and sophistication of Sonnons programs.

 

Jack Lalane is awsome but have you seen him move?...not graceful at all in comparison their is a vid on youtube of a 94 yr old man doing Bagua that is absolutely beutiful,agile and flowing...flow with the go right.

 

Cameron...good luck and speedy recovery with the knee(been there,done that).

[Lozen]

I think that Royal Court, heavy weight trianing ect definatley do have their benifits but is it sustainable without injury or pain?....not likely for average people.

 

That's a really really broad statement. Would love to hear you back that up. I think the sustainability would depend on how you were doing the exercises.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Lozen

[Christoph]

I meant sustainable progress as more weight and reps as opposed to sophistication and complexity.

I didnt mean to imply that weight training is not possible into old age just that the standard model of progressive resistance training is not.

[Lozen]

I meant sustainable progress as more weight and reps as opposed to sophistication and complexity.

I didnt mean to imply that weight training is not possible into old age just that the standard model of progressive resistance training is not.

 

I didn't realize there was a standard model.

[Christoph]

I didn't realize there was a standard model.

 

I am getting the feeling that you simply like to engage in debate

maybe because you dont like Sonnon..I dont know...anyhow

this article explains it in great detail with less marketing than the Royal Court article.

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7200

Edited December 4, 2006 by Christoph

[Lozen]

I can't access that link.

 

I agree that some forms of weight training are unsustainable when done in certain ways but I don't know what you mean by "standard model" and I'm sure that some "complex and sophisticated" models would also be unsustainable. I also think a lot of things need to be individually tailored for one's body type, goals, etc.

[Christoph]

I can't access that link.

 

I agree that some forms of weight training are unsustainable when done in certain ways but I don't know what you mean by "standard model" and I'm sure that some "complex and sophisticated" models would also be unsustainable. I also think a lot of things need to be individually tailored for one's body type, goals, etc.

 

I think that my idea of a standard model is probably from a different perspective than yours simply because our backgrounds are differnt (being male,age,experiece,disillusion ect.)

 

Go into any typical weightlifting/bodybuilding gym anywhere and the male "model" is to be bigger,stronger,more ripped ect all 'performance as an end result attitude'....that is all I meant. That is a bit of a dead end IMO. Performace should be a byproduct of skill development.

 

And I agree totally about tailoring exercise for what works best for you but many people arent open minded enough to explore( not refering to you).

Edited December 4, 2006 by Christoph

[Lozen]

I think that my idea of a standard model is probably from a different perspective than yours simply because our backgrounds are differnt (being male,age,experiece,disillusion ect.)

 

Go into any typical weightlifting/bodybuilding gym anywhere and the male "model" is to be bigger,stronger,more ripped ect all 'performance as an end result attitude'....that is all I meant. That is a bit of a dead end IMO. Performace should be a byproduct of skill development.

 

And I agree totally about tailoring exercise for what works best for you but many people arent open minded enough to explore( not refering to you).

 

You're right. When I think standard model, I think weight circuits.

[SheepishLord]

The Dangers of the "Royal Court"

 

Take a look at this video of Scott Sonnon and the rest in the series. While I give him credit for his physical development, I am reminded that he once lamented the physical culture addicts who spent their lives in "mirror-lined coffins" instead of living life.

 

Edited December 5, 2006 by SheepishLord

[Smile]

This guy is completely sidetracked from all his believes into another "excercise monkey mind". He makes fun of all that high repetition training and then goes on to set a record of 1,420 repetitions of Mills.

Is this good for your body? NO!

Is doing 200 hindu squads good for your body? NO!

This is not being functional- it's being stupid. Bodyflow was excellent and a few flows after that but then the sign of a $ kicked in.

[SheepishLord]

This guy is completely sidetracked from all his believes into another "excercise monkey mind". He makes fun of all that high repetition training and then goes on to set a record of 1,420 repetitions of Mills.

Is this good for your body? NO!

Is doing 200 hindu squads good for your body? NO!

This is not being functional- it's being stupid. Bodyflow was excellent and a few flows after that but then the sign of a $ kicked in.

 

Yes, with any marketing business there always has to be another product with a higher price tag as the customer moves down the funnel. Since Sonnon doesn't do this, he needs to flood the market with little products. Hence, the endless DVDs.