Brand New Wu Wei Thread

[Marblehead]

Hi Folks,

 

I have been wanting for some time to share a perspective of the Tao Te Ching from Wayne L. Wang in his book, "Dynamic Tao and Its Manifestations", published by Helena Island Publisher.

 

This seems to be an appropriate time to do that.

 

Wayne did not Romanize the word "wu". However, he did Romanize the word "wei" and states in his introduction that he translated "wei" as "action".

 

For the initial phase of what I will present I will use the translation of "wu" as "non", "not", or "without".

 

Of course, my arguement here is that Lao Tzu did, in fact, speak to the concept of "wu wei" (without action).

 

In my first post following this post I will present Wayne's interpretation of "wu wei" and his justification. Following posts wil be specific lines of specific Chapters from his translation of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I hope we can make this a fun project.

[Protector]

I think the best way to get wu wei is through meditation

So I don't like all the endless threads about how to wu wei right

[Stosh]

I think the best way to get wu wei is through meditation

So I don't like all the endless threads about how to wu wei right

If I am guessing right Mh wants to put it to rest solidly too.

My opinon is the reverse of your own , meditation has nothing to do with wei wu wei

Cleaning the fish pond however, is right in line with it.

Mh would be doing exactly the normal thing to do in response

to the fish pond requiring it.

So he is harmonious with the situation

He isnt doing any kind of crazy stuff

he isnt avoiding it

he isnt destroying it

he is maintaining the status quo

he is not preparing it for the fish pond olympics

he isnt doing it repetetively to avoid emotional issues

he isnt going for a shallow swim to use scuba gear

he isnt drinking the water

he isnt praying to it

he isnt giving it pet names so it will learn to fetch

You get the idea I guess

 

He is doing physically, fulfilling a role

he is not trying to fight the nature of the circumstance

 

Stosh

Edited August 3, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

... the nature of the circumstance

 

Stosh

You left your most important words for last. Was that intentional or was it wei wu wei?

[ChiDragon]

To begin with the character, 為(wei) in the Chinese language, there are more than one meaning than just "action". In the west, it seems to me "action" is the only meaning that was known of. If the non-Chinese do not realize that, then there is no way they will ever understand the term "Wu Wei". It is not what we want it to be meant. Since it has a unique meaning in the Tao Te Ching, it was meant to be follow the chapters in the TTC to figure out what it meant by LaoTze.

 

LaoTze likes to use the dyad of Wu and You to express his thoughts in many ways. He uses Wu to express many things in many different way. If you use the same definition to interpret throughout the Tao Te Ching, then it would be a big mistake and started with the wrong foot.

Edited August 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[thelerner]

LaoTze likes to use the dyad of Wu and You to express his thoughts in many ways. He uses Wu to express many things in many different way. If you use the same definition to interpret throughout the Tao Te Ching, then it would be a big mistake and started with the wrong foot.

Very interesting. Could you give us some examples?

 

Thanks

Michael

[Aaron]

I'm thinking that if we read the translations of people like John C. H. Wu and Gia Fu-Feng, we can assume that, since they were native born Chinese and knew the language, as well as spoke English fluently, that they'd pick up on these nuances, but apparently having multiple degrees, being internationally recognized as a translator (in the case of Wu), isn't enough, what we really need to find is those people who translate the Tao Teh Ching as we want it to be translated, so we can prove what we want to prove, rather than just accept that maybe the idea of Wu Wei is all just metaphysical hocus pocus (almost like the philosopher's stone).

 

Aaron

Edited August 4, 2012 by Aaron

[james liem]

If we translate wu wei as not doing(passively), we will not get the essence of Wu wei as Lao Tze meant in his TTC. Wu wei is an active things.

 

My opinon is the reverse of your own , meditation has nothing to do with wei wu wei (stosh)

...How can we reach a highest level of meditation without doing wu wei in our meditation? Edited August 4, 2012 by james liem

[ChiDragon]

If we translate wu wei as not doing(passively), we will not get the essence of Wu wei as Lao Tze meant in his TTC. Wu wei is an active things.

 

...How can we reach a highest level of meditation without doing wu wei in our meditation?

 

You are right. Any native Chinese would agree with that; but let's leave meditation out of this thread for now.

Edited August 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I'm thinking that if we read the translations of people like John C. H. Wu and Gia Fu-Feng, we can assume that, since they were native born Chinese and knew the language, as well as spoke English fluently, that they'd pick up on these nuances, but apparently having multiple degrees, being internationally recognized as a translator (in the case of Wu), isn't enough, what we really need to find is those people who translate the Tao Teh Ching as we want it to be translated, so we can prove what we want to prove, rather than just accept that maybe the idea of Wu Wei is all just metaphysical hocus pocus (almost like the philosopher's stone).

 

Aaron

 

That was not a good assumption. It is worse for those who spoke English fluently because they had outside influence which effected their thinking. Besides, they may not understand classic Chinese fluently anyway. Sometimes they want their books to be the bestseller and make it to fit the taste of the westerners.

Edited August 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Very interesting. Could you give us some examples?

 

Thanks

Michael

 

Gladly...!!! This would require a new long thread. It shall be done in the near future....

[Aaron]

That was not a good assumption. It is worse for those who spoke English fluently because they had outside influence which effected their thinking. Besides, they may not understand classic Chinese fluently anyway. Sometimes they want their books to be the bestseller and make it to fit the taste of the westerners.

 

So are you saying we want someone who can't speak English to translate it? Wu was recognized worldwide as a translator and his translation is still considered among the best available. Others may come along and cause a stir, but his has stood the test of time. I think the problem is that he didn't translate it the way you want it to be translated.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Wu was also considered to be an expert on classical chinese as well. Some of his translations include "The Four Seasons of T`ang Poetry", "Zhongguo Zhe Hsuëh", "Beyond East and West", and "Fountain of Justice: A Study in Natural Law". Also he was the principal author of the Nationalist Constitution adopted in 1946 by the Tiawanese government. Perhaps you could share with us some of the texts you've translated and published, so we could verify your own capacity as an expert translator?

Edited August 4, 2012 by Aaron

[ChiDragon]

Aaron...

It is not the way I want to translate it. I was only translating the interpretation of the knowledgeable scholars. I just gather information from a received copy of the Tao Ta Ching based on the consensus for the most accuracy.

 

PS...

I only used native sources that are written in Chinese. Any mistake in the translation into English that would be made by me.

 

PPS...

Perhaps you could share with us some of the texts you've translated and published, so we could verify your own capacity as an expert translator?

 

All my translation are done in the Tao Te Ching Section. And my explanation about Wu Wei was done based on the interpretations of those native scholars. They are not my own interpretation. I only study it and try to tell the people in the western world to make the correction.

Edited August 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Everything]

Chapter 3, last two sentences:

Wei wu wei

Ze wu bu zhi

Action without action

Means without lack (of) order.

 

Here Lao Tzu compares action to a lack of order and points to the one true and only action in all of existance: "surrender and allowance" for if no actions allows all the harmony to be that is, then action would be a denial of this harmony. Only the self takes action. To allow allowance, one must let go of the self, surrender itself. If you're afraid to surrender, then go find a mother who has big breasts and soft hands, so you can drink milk while having her look after you, carry you and clean you behind. Is that what you want?

 

If you're a disbeliever, thats what you get. More questions, more unwillingness to allow the answers to come and to even resist the answer when it comes. Denie it. Suffocate it of its freedom to express itself. Fight it. Rebel against it. That is what disbelieve is. Expansion is the result of inclusion, not exclusion and discrimination. Allowance is equal to inclusion! Inclusion is not an act of including. Including is an act of NO ACTION!! NO ACTION! Thus, no effort. You allow all to be unified because it already is! Allow me to say it again; because people tend to forget things. "NO ACTION"

You do not try and join the truth together. You surrender yourself, because you have created the illusionary idea and problem that the truth is not already one/together/unity. So your mind tries to seek for harmony based on the "self". So you be without self, by surrendering and lettig go of the self.

 

Oh, but you're afraid to let go of your self and surrender the self to the one truth that all exists here and now? You're unwilling to trust the greatest being in all of exist, being the existance itself which includes everythig in existance without any effort/action? How powerful that which is all of existance without any effort/action? And you are saying you want to distrust it, resist it, denie it and pretend its not the truth? By accepting your own truth to be the highest truth? What have you done? You're simply idolizing and worshipping a self created god. Wether it be the lord of academics or whatever lord you wish. Instead of doing that, why not kneel to yourself why you're at it? You are here and now. All exists here and now. Then who is the greatest being here and now? What being is greater than that which is being all?

 

When you can truely allow the following information to be and allow yourself to understand it, you will have wei wu wei be your naturall choice of action, because it is! It is not an effort to take action WITHOUT EFFORT! Its absolutely 10000000000000 times infinite % NO EFORT! No action... It is allowance it is the flow of all, the inclusion, the order and unity. The harmony. All the things that we denie to even exist in our experience in our arrogance and stubbornness and rebeliousness. Let go of your self. Surrender then allowance will become effortless, because it IS effortless. It is not about what to do, its about what to stop doing! The less you take action, the more you will get done.

 

Are you still afraid to let go and still see yourself choosing to trust and idolize and worship illusionary and self created truths? If so, good luck with that. I've tried. You cannot win and you'll never win, you did not even come here to win, you came here to surrender once again, but you do not know it yet.

 

I can just almost taste the fear here... Its amazing how much disbelieve one can have. You think you're all hiding the inner most depths of your thoughts, but nothing is further from the truth. For the only person you are hiding them from is yourself. All the master hears is "please, come and safe me, allow me to surrender myself, myself is rebelious!"

 

Then the self goes like "no! i am unworthy! I AM UNLOVED!" raises his hands to the heavens, as if there is some guy up there that hates him. "i have to find out the truth! So I can destroy the universe! I shall study all my life because i am stupid! And I shall find out one day, some imaginary future that is outside of me. I am very small here in the moment. I am like a poop!".

 

You think that a surrender of these ideas are a forsaking of yourself. When in reality, a surrender of the self is infact an inclusion of all that you are and more and beyond to infinity and love. It is the greatest peace to be had the greatest and contentment to be had and the greatest of expansion to be had in all of your being.

 

Surrender all ideas that are not aligned with the following sentence:

"All exists right here and right now."

 

Don't analyze it and question it. Surrender to it. If you think you're unable to trust it and unwilling to trust it, or that trust/allowance/surrender are "difficult thigs that require allot of effort, then allow me to say the following last question for you to consider.

Why are you trusting that which you do no want to trust in? This is the very definition of disbelieve. For disbelieve does not exist and non-existance DOES NOT EXIST. there is only existance. All of existance being one and the one being all of existance. All exists right here and now. There is no other place or time to your life. Its all that you have. So, you want to take action? Good luck with that. I ask you again, why are trusting the things you are trusting when you do not even want to trust them? Honestly ask yourself. Sincerely and listen. Just shut up and listen for the answer. Allow it to come. Be 100% honest and don't judge yourself when answering that question. Its all for yourself. Only afterwards, when you feel you are willing to share the answer and accept your answer for what it is, then do so. Feel free to do so. No matter what the answer is.

 

Wei wu wei is all about what to stop doing. To allow the harmony to be that already is, allways has been and allways shall be.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Everything

[Marblehead]

LaoTze likes to use the dyad of Wu and You to ...

 

MH Note: I use the word "Yo" where ChiDragon uses the word "You". It is the exact same word.

[Marblehead]

If we translate wu wei as not doing(passively), we will not get the essence of Wu wei as Lao Tze meant in his TTC. Wu wei is an active things.

This is the bottom line I am wishing to reach in this thread.

[Marblehead]

Gladly...!!! This would require a new long thread. It shall be done in the near future....

I hope we will be able to do that in this thread.

 

And everyone, thanks for joining in. Let's try to keep the discussions constructive, Okay?

[Marblehead]

Chapter 3, last two sentences:

WoW! You sure got inspired, didn't you?

 

Oh, that word, "surrender". One of my least favorite, you know. But I must confess that you used it pretty effectively in this post.

[Marblehead]

So anyhow, what I am looking for and hoping for are comments to my first two posts of excerpts of Wayne Wang's introduction to his translation.

 

I think it would be best to discuss the basic premise before we get into the details of the thread topic.

 

By starting this thread in the "Taoist Discussion" sub-forum I am stating as a fact that "wu wei" and all other variations of the word "wu" are very important to Taoist Philosophy and that Lao Tzu did, in fact, speak to the concepts.

 

One of the important things we will naturally discuss will be why different translators translated the original Chinese into English the way they did.

 

This thread is not about whether or not "wu wei" is Lao Tzuist concept. It is! That is a given and mst be accepted else there would be no purpose of saying anything in this thread.

 

So let's stick with the thread topic and see how constructive we can be, Okay?

[Aaron]

Chapter 3, last two sentences:

Wei wu wei

Ze wu bu zhi

Action without action

Means without lack (of) order.

 

Here Lao Tzu compares action to a lack of order and points to the one true and only action in all of existance: "surrender and allowance" for if no actions allows all the harmony to be that is, then action would be a denial of this harmony. Only the self takes action. To allow allowance, one must let go of the self, surrender itself. If you're afraid to surrender, then go find a mother who has big breasts and soft hands, so you can drink milk while having her look after you, carry you and clean you behind. Is that what you want?

 

If you're a disbeliever, thats what you get. More questions, more unwillingness to allow the answers to come and to even resist the answer when it comes. Denie it. Suffocate it of its freedom to express itself. Fight it. Rebel against it. That is what disbelieve is. Expansion is the result of inclusion, not exclusion and discrimination. Allowance is equal to inclusion! Inclusion is not an act of including. Including is an act of NO ACTION!! NO ACTION! Thus, no effort. You allow all to be unified because it already is! Allow me to say it again; because people tend to forget things. "NO ACTION"

You do not try and join the truth together. You surrender yourself, because you have created the illusionary idea and problem that the truth is not already one/together/unity. So your mind tries to seek for harmony based on the "self". So you be without self, by surrendering and lettig go of the self.

 

Oh, but you're afraid to let go of your self and surrender the self to the one truth that all exists here and now? You're unwilling to trust the greatest being in all of exist, being the existance itself which includes everythig in existance without any effort/action? How powerful that which is all of existance without any effort/action? And you are saying you want to distrust it, resist it, denie it and pretend its not the truth? By accepting your own truth to be the highest truth? What have you done? You're simply idolizing and worshipping a self created god. Wether it be the lord of academics or whatever lord you wish. Instead of doing that, why not kneel to yourself why you're at it? You are here and now. All exists here and now. Then who is the greatest being here and now? What being is greater than that which is being all?

 

When you can truely allow the following information to be and allow yourself to understand it, you will have wei wu wei be your naturall choice of action, because it is! It is not an effort to take action WITHOUT EFFORT! Its absolutely 10000000000000 times infinite % NO EFORT! No action... It is allowance it is the flow of all, the inclusion, the order and unity. The harmony. All the things that we denie to even exist in our experience in our arrogance and stubbornness and rebeliousness. Let go of your self. Surrender then allowance will become effortless, because it IS effortless. It is not about what to do, its about what to stop doing! The less you take action, the more you will get done.

 

Are you still afraid to let go and still see yourself choosing to trust and idolize and worship illusionary and self created truths? If so, good luck with that. I've tried. You cannot win and you'll never win, you did not even come here to win, you came here to surrender once again, but you do not know it yet.

 

I can just almost taste the fear here... Its amazing how much disbelieve one can have. You think you're all hiding the inner most depths of your thoughts, but nothing is further from the truth. For the only person you are hiding them from is yourself. All the master hears is "please, come and safe me, allow me to surrender myself, myself is rebelious!"

 

Then the self goes like "no! i am unworthy! I AM UNLOVED!" raises his hands to the heavens, as if there is some guy up there that hates him. "i have to find out the truth! So I can destroy the universe! I shall study all my life because i am stupid! And I shall find out one day, some imaginary future that is outside of me. I am very small here in the moment. I am like a poop!".

 

You think that a surrender of these ideas are a forsaking of yourself. When in reality, a surrender of the self is infact an inclusion of all that you are and more and beyond to infinity and love. It is the greatest peace to be had the greatest and contentment to be had and the greatest of expansion to be had in all of your being.

 

Surrender all ideas that are not aligned with the following sentence:

"All exists right here and right now."

 

Don't analyze it and question it. Surrender to it. If you think you're unable to trust it and unwilling to trust it, or that trust/allowance/surrender are "difficult thigs that require allot of effort, then allow me to say the following last question for you to consider.

Why are you trusting that which you do no want to trust in? This is the very definition of disbelieve. For disbelieve does not exist and non-existance DOES NOT EXIST. there is only existance. All of existance being one and the one being all of existance. All exists right here and now. There is no other place or time to your life. Its all that you have. So, you want to take action? Good luck with that. I ask you again, why are trusting the things you are trusting when you do not even want to trust them? Honestly ask yourself. Sincerely and listen. Just shut up and listen for the answer. Allow it to come. Be 100% honest and don't judge yourself when answering that question. Its all for yourself. Only afterwards, when you feel you are willing to share the answer and accept your answer for what it is, then do so. Feel free to do so. No matter what the answer is.

 

Wei wu wei is all about what to stop doing. To allow the harmony to be that already is, allways has been and allways shall be.

 

I didn't read all of your post, it was a bit too far out there for me to finish. I think you are confusing the concept still although I think Chapter 3 might be one of the chapters many people might use to argue that Lao Tzu was speaking of Wu Wei, but in fact he was talking about knowledge and how it is the cause of conflict amongst the people. (In other words more advice for the ruler, rather than advice intended for the common man).

 

Aaron

 

edit- I wont be continuing the debate on the existence of Wu Wei here out of respect for others. I have yet to see anything that would convince me that Lao Tzu did talk about Wu Wei, but that is a discussion we can have in the General Discussion section, or at the very least we can concede he never talked about it and we just extrapolate from what he said. Anyways, I digress again. If you want to discuss this with me, go to the Wu Wei, Real or Myth thread in General Discussion.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Aaron

[ChiDragon]

Hi Folks,

 

I have been wanting for some time to share a perspective of the Tao Te Ching from Wayne L. Wang in his book, "Dynamic Tao and Its Manifestations", published by Helena Island Publisher.

 

Wayne did not Romanize the word "wu". However, he did Romanize the word "wei" and states in his introduction that he translated "wei" as "action".

.............I will use the translation of "wu" as "non", "not", or "without".

 

................... speak to the concept of "wu wei" (without action).

 

In my first post following this post I will present Wayne's interpretation of "wu wei" and his justification. Following posts wil be specific lines of specific Chapters from his translation of the Tao Te Ching.

 

To begin with, let's look at the meanings of the characters 無(wu), 為(wei) and 無為(wu wei) in the Chinese language.

 

 

1. 無(wu): not; none; non; without, doesn't have;

無(wu) is a negative word, if it was put in font of any character, it will negate the meaning of the trailing character.

 

2. 為(wei): intended action

 

FYI Each characters has its basic meaning(s) individually. However, when they were put into context, the original meaning may or may be no changed. Those who do not read Chinese might not know when two characters were compounded; the initial meaning of the characters may be changed completely. Indeed, the compound characters become a special term and has a complete different meaning.

 

3. In the case of wu wei....

Wu Wei: no intended action, nothing has been accomplished; nothing was done; do nothing

 

This is only the ordinary usage of the character in daily life of the common people. However, LaoTze use the term in a special way because his wisdom was out of the ordinary. He has his own meaning of Wu Wei. In order to understand what it means, one must study the Tao Te Ching to find out its actual meaning. By looking the term and breaking down the character, and do a separate interpretation of the characters was a mistake and how less one knows.

 

What I am saying was that we should interpret the term of Wu Wei as a whole instead of interpreting the superficial meaning of each character. What that does it will only create somebody's misinterpretation; but not LaoTze's original philosophical meaning. BTW If it is so simple by looking at the characters of Wu Wei to make some erroneous assumptions about the philosophy of LaoTze, then why did LaoTze need to write eighty-one chapter to explain what Wu Wei is in his Tao Te Ching.

 

If we, the modern people, by interpreting Wu Wei as "without action", then that would be a great insult to the wisdom of LaoTze and his philosophy. After all, LaoTze didn't write the Tao Te Ching for nothing.

[Marblehead]

Great post ChiDragon.

 

This is what I am hoping to see from others as well, not just ChiDragon's take.

 

Especially important is this:

 

2. 為(wei): intended action

 

How do you like the thought: unnatural action?

[ChiDragon]

Great post ChiDragon.

 

This is what I am hoping to see from others as well, not just ChiDragon's take.

 

Especially important is this:

 

2. 為(wei): intended action

 

How do you like the thought: unnatural action?

 

"Unnatural action" is not the basic linguistic definition for the COMPOUND characters. However, "unnatural action" is where the Tao Te Ching goes into. That was the original thought of LaoTZe. His whole idea was based on to avoid "unnatural action". By his definition of Wu Wei is to be natural, "intended no unnatural action." As I had said before, Wu Wei is "to take no abusive action"

 

BTW This is not my idea, my interpretation was originated from the explanation of the knowledgeable native scholars. Please do not assign any credit to my name....

Edited August 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

BTW This is not my idea, my interpretation was originated from the explanation of the knowledgeable native scholars. Please do not assign any credit to my name....

Yes, I know, it is an understanding held by many.

 

But you were the one who posted it on this thread so you get credit for that. (But no unnatural credit.)

[doc benway]

For me, Wu Wei is about getting out of my own way.