Brand New Wu Wei Thread

[rene]

To begin with, let's look at the meanings of the characters 無(wu), 為(wei) and 無為(wu wei) in the Chinese language.

 

1. 無(wu): not; none; non; without, doesn't have;

無(wu) is a negative word, if it was put in font of any character, it will negate the meaning of the trailing character.

 

2. 為(wei): intended action

 

3. In the case of wu wei....

Wu Wei: no intended action, nothing has been accomplished; nothing was done; do nothing

 

This is only the ordinary usage of the character in daily life of the common people. However, LaoTze use the term in a special way because his wisdom was out of the ordinary....

 

What I am saying was that we should interpret the term of Wu Wei as a whole instead of interpreting the superficial meaning of each character...

 

Yes and no. Yes, in that Laozi uses a term in a special way; no, in that Wu Wei needn't be interpreted as a whole. Well, it could, but there's an easier way. That easier way would be to re-orient our thinking as to Laozi's special and consistent throughout the TaoTeChing use of "Wu".

 

This is the thrust of Dr. Wang's work (thanks MH for starting the thread, btw) and, once understood, shines clear light on many of the seeming paradoxes in the TTC.

 

Marblehead - if you'd like, I'll hang around in this discussion to assist. If I may suggest - start with Wang's "Wu" (which is also reflected in TaoMeow's post in the other thread about it not being a 'left-brain thingy' (paraphrased )

 

Once "Wu" the way Laozi is using it is understood - then the concepts of WuWei, and WuZhi, and WuYue - become amazingly simple.

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, this is not yes and no. It is either yes or no. No multiple answers....Sorry again.

 

"Wu" is not consistent throughout the TaoTeChing. Each "Wu" in some chapters has different meaning from one another. LaoTze has a unique way of using "Wu" to express himself.

 

Wu by itself is something else than Wu Wei.

 

"Wu Wei" by itself is different from Wu and Wei.

 

Wu Wei is a term which patented by LoaTze so to speak. We must interpret the TTC by his meaning of the term rather than ours. It is because he wrote the TTC not us.

[Marblehead]

For me, Wu Wei is about getting out of my own way.

Hehehe. That's easy for you to say when you understand what you are saying.

[Marblehead]

Yes and no.

Well, looky there! Rene has joined us in this discussion. Of course I would love to have you be very active in this thread. Besides, you could handle this much better than I will be able to so your checks and balances will be most welcome.

 

Yes, "wu" needs be talked about more. We'll see where we can go with it.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Marblehead

[gatito]

 

..........................

 

Wu Wei is a term which patented by LoaTze so to speak. We must interpret the TTC by his meaning of the term rather than ours. It is because he wrote the TTC not us.

 

I'd be interested in knowing whether you consider that Wei Wu Wei (Terence Grey) gets it "right" as well.

[Marblehead]

Well, it seems that my first post after my opening post is missing.

 

I have no idea where it has gone and I do not have a backup copy of it.

 

Seems we are talking about something that does not exist.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Marblehead

[rene]

Perhaps it will manifest in a new thread. (-:

[Marblehead]

Perhaps it will manifest in a new thread. (-:

Hehehe. I had noticed that you were on-line and that you were viewing this thread and was expecting you to say something like that.

 

I have the intuitive feeling that this is what is going to happen.

 

I also realized that in order to do this project justice I need to have available to me a transliteration of the TTC in either Wade-Giles or Pinyin format. Although I prefer the Wade-Giles my research so far indicates that the most complete I will have access to on the internet (I do not have any hard copy) will be a Pinyin transliteration.

 

Before I start a new thread I will put together what I feel I will need for the discussion and have it available in my files so that I can readily access it whenever needed.

 

So. I would like to thank everyone who has participated to this point. I will be making no further posts in this thread regarding "wu wei" but I will respond to any post that is directed to me personally.

 

Please be patient while I gather my needed info for a new thread. Thanks!

[ChiDragon]

I'd be interested in knowing whether you consider that Wei Wu Wei (Terence Grey) gets it "right" as well.

I was going to save this for last because once we understand Wu Wei is first. Then, we will have no problem with Wei Wu Wei.

 

Since you asked, here is the time to get it right.

 

The character 為(wei) has two tones, wéi and wèi.

wéi: for

wèi: intended action

wéi wu wèi is for Wu Wei.

 

If we can understand what Wu Wei is, then we'll know that we are studying the Tao Te Ching was for Wu Wei.

Edited August 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[gatito]

[ChiDragon]

Very interesting. Could you give us some examples?

 

Thanks

Michael

 

Chapter 1

1. 道可道，非常道。

2. 名可名，非常名。

3. 無,名天地之始。

4. 有,名萬物之母。

5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。

7. 此兩者同出而異名，

8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，

9. 眾妙之門。

 

Revised as of 2/27/12

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

3. Invisible(Wu) was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible(You) was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible(wu), one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible(you), one would observe its boundary.

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as unfathomable; the most occult and profound;

9. The gate of all changes.

 

 

Michael.....

Here is an good example how LoaTze was using Wu and You to represent the two states of Tao's presence. "Wu" is the invisible state of Tao; and "You" as the state of visible.

 

In lines 3 and 4, Wu and You were used as proper nouns.

In lines 5 and 6, wu and you were used as adjectives.

[Everything]

I didn't read all of your post, it was a bit too far out there for me to finish. I think you are confusing the concept still although I think Chapter 3 might be one of the chapters many people might use to argue that Lao Tzu was speaking of Wu Wei, but in fact he was talking about knowledge and how it is the cause of conflict amongst the people. (In other words more advice for the ruler, rather than advice intended for the common man).

 

Aaron

 

edit- I wont be continuing the debate on the existence of Wu Wei here out of respect for others. I have yet to see anything that would convince me that Lao Tzu did talk about Wu Wei, but that is a discussion we can have in the General Discussion section, or at the very least we can concede he never talked about it and we just extrapolate from what he said. Anyways, I digress again. If you want to discuss this with me, go to the Wu Wei, Real or Myth thread in General Discussion.

I did read all of your post, it was right in front of my eyes.

[Everything]

Wei wu wei = letting go

 

For there is no other action that is followed by non-action besides a letting go.

 

Wei wu wei = believe = surrender = letting go = allowing

I have proved it to everyone in the universe, simply by living my life and I shall continue to express this concept effortlessness in yet greater and greater ways each day as I let go of more things that stand in my way of allowing what I desire to allow in my life. How much action is required to let go of that which no longer serves me? No action. What action requires no action? Which action is followed by a lack of action and effort? Which action has more to do with being rather then doing? Wei wu wei! Letting go, allowing, believing, surrendering to.

 

For those who say it is hard to surrender, I say, how did you manage to utterly surrender to the idea that it is hard to surrender? Bravo! You are a master of limitation!

For those who are unwilling to surrender, I say, then why have you surrendered to your current truth? Why? If you are unwilling to surrender, then stop surrendering to all that you are surrendering to every single second a billion times each second! Why not surrender to what you want to surrender to? How about surrender to a truth that you need not surrender to a truth you don't want to surrender to? You say; oh but no! My truth is the greatest! There is no other truth out there greater then my truth! Oh but my truth will surely crush me if I try and surrender to another truth! My truth is the allmighty and my reality is the almighty, I am powerless and you are too! You have to surrender to my unwanted truth aswell! I am afraid to let go of my current truth! I am powerless over my reality! I AM SURRENDERED!!!!! DONT YOU SEE THE PARADOX IN THAT!!! WAKE UP FOR YOUR SAKE!

 

If you understand what wei wu wei really means, nothing is impossible. All that stand in between you and where you want is your willingness to let go all that stand in your way. You are right here and right now. Thats all that there is to it. Wei wu wei is the only action that you are able to take. If you think you need more then that, then you are on your own. Its all out of my hands. For I can only be here and now for you. If you want to be there and then, theres is nothing I can do for you.

 

---===Contradict yourself to gain new insight on all that exists===---

 

Letting go of the action. Letting go of the doing of it. Letting go and let it be. Let it be. Allow it. Believe it. Be it. There is no wrong in this. There is no non-existance. All that you can allow is more of all that you are! All that exists right here and right now!

Edited August 5, 2012 by Everything

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Some might disagree, but I think for an English speaker it is helpful to know that the character for wei 為 is a seen as a hand leading an elephant. I'm not entirely sure how it makes up an elephant but it is obviously something huge.

 

The hand is actually a claw rather than just a hand which I suppose is to show that it is not merely holding the elephant, but is acting upon it.

 

The outcome is that this character also means to govern, make, act upon, handle. As Chi Dragon mentioned, it can mean "for" like "for wu wei" but this would essentially take the meaning "makes wu wei" as another way to say it in English while maintaining the additional connotations.

 

So, it's not just action, but governing action, forceful action, leading and interfering action. Also, the fact that it is an animal claw also shows the nature of this as animals rarely act on something without the intention to change or control it in some way.

 

I think it is very important to look at this in terms of the first few chapters which deal with not meddling too much, such as (ironic as it will be for me to say so) not always putting a label on things. For example, if your listening to music and someone says "oh it's so such and such" that can take away from actually hearing the profound beauty since you will have diminished it to "such and such." Thus, non action of this type (see Chapter 1, TTC) allows one to experience truth and beauty in life which cannot be controlled and possessed, in spite of man's tendency to literalize. You cannot literalize these moments, they need to be experienced, and to be experienced one must learn not to interfere with them.

 

 

edit - just wanted to note that this happened to be my 1,696th post

Edited August 5, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Here is an good example how LoaTze was using Wu and You to represent the two states of Tao's presence. "Wu" is the invisible state of Tao; and "You" as the state of visible.

 

In lines 3 and 4, Wu and You were used as proper nouns.

In lines 5 and 6, wu and you were used as adjectives.

Excellent!!!

[Everything]

Some might disagree, but I think for an English speaker it is helpful to know that the character for wei 為 is a seen as a hand leading an elephant. I'm not entirely sure how it makes up an elephant but it is obviously something huge.

An elephant? Haha, who told you that?

 

Its a symbol for "expression"

 

The character of wu is actually about "isolation"

 

Expression all by itself having nowhere no place to express. The one the unity the all that is. Its as close as you can ever get to non-existance.

 

In a sense, you try to be nothing. You stop at being. At "one" all that is and you are everything. That is the paradox that is solved. I solved it for all of you if only you are willing to listen. If I try to make you surrender, I just create more struggle. So I surrender myself and I wait here.

 

Surrender is not the forsaking of yourself. It is an embrace of ALL that you are.

[ChiDragon]

The outcome is that this character also means to govern, make, act upon, handle. As Chi Dragon mentioned, it can mean "for" like "for wu wei" but this would essentially take the meaning "makes wu wei" as another way to say it in English while maintaining the additional connotations.

 

edit - just wanted to note that this happened to be my 1,696th post

 

hmm........

"For the reason" vs "make the reason" as another way to say it in English.....???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

bird 鳥

 

bear 熊

 

fish 魚

 

horse 馬

 

鳥 bird means chirping insects with a mouth in front of it according to nina train choa.

 

initially used this dictionary which said the "Associative Compound" of 為 wei is a hand leading an elephant.

 

http://www.chinavista.com/experience/hanzi/hanzi.html

 

Associative compounds

 

The principle of forming characters by drawing pictures is easy to understand, but pictographs cannot express abstract ideas. So the ancients invented the "associative compounds," i. e., characters formed by combining two or more elements, each with a meaning of its own, to express new ideas. Thus, the sun and the moon written together became the character (ming), which means "bright"; the sun placed over a line representing the horizon formed the ideogram (dan) which means "sunrise" or "morning".

 

Though Elephant is 象 [with the trunk on the top)

 

So, don't know what animal 為 is...

Edited August 5, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Hey you guys....

Why do you start a new thread for studying the Chinese characters.....???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

hmm........

"For the reason" vs "make the reason" as another way to say it in English.....???

 

Well, if we're only talking about wei wu wei as it first appears in the Dao De Jing in chapter three, there doesn't seem to be a necessary reason to make the character mean "for" so long as we are keeping in mind the obvious flow of his thoughts [though sometimes "for" can mean "as a result" / doing it for/as a result of something/caused by. I would be inclined to work the sentence to include more connotations of the symbol].

 

 

I think it would help to see wei wu wei, 為無為, by tracing the idea back to line 09 of Chapter 2 before it appears near the end of Chapter 3:

 

 

My translation:

 

 

09 是以聖人處無為之事,

shì yǐ shèng rén chù wú wéi zhī shì,

So, by means of wisdom, people reside in a place where they do not force, and there they find their role

 

 

10 行不言之教。

xíng bù yán zhī jiào。

Teaching occurs without words

 

 

11 萬物作焉而不辭。

wàn wù zuò yān ér bù cí。

The myriad things create questions that have no answers

 

 

12 生而不有,

shēng ér bù yǒu,

New emerges without grasping for it

 

 

13 為而不恃,

wéi ér bù shì,

Done with no expectation or reliance on outcome

 

14 功成而弗居。

gōng chéng ér fú jū。

Accomplishments completed and yet not remaining with them

 

 

15 夫唯弗居,

fū wéi fú jū,

The wise simply do not reside with their accomplishments.

 

16 是以不去。

shì yǐ bù qù。

Indeed, thus there is no need to depart from them.

 

 

Chapter Three

 

01 不尚賢,

bù shàng xián

Don’t dwell on the exalted

 

02 使民不爭。

shǐ mín bù zhēng。

If you wish for people not to quarrel

 

 

03 不貴難得之貨，

bù guì nán dé zhī huò,

Do not distinguishing the difficult to obtain

 

04 使民不為盜。

shǐ mín bù wéi dào。

So that ordinary people will not be led to stealing.

 

05 不見可欲,

bù jiàn kě yù,

Do not focus on great abilities

 

 

06 使民心不亂。

shǐ mín xīn bù luàn。

So that people’s hearts are not agitated

 

 

07 是以聖人之治,

shì yǐ shèng rén zhī zhì,

Indeed, in this way, the wisdom in people will govern

 

08 虛其心,

xū qí xīn,

Emptying the scheming mind

 

09 實其腹,

shí qí fǔ,

And seeing the truth that resides in the belly

 

10 弱其志,

ruò qí zhì,

Reducing the desire for these things

 

11 強其骨。

qiáng qí gǔ。

While improving on that which is structurally integral

 

12 常使民無知無欲,

chāng shǐ mín wú zhī wú yù。

So that people do not make a big deal over these things and increase their longings

 

13 使夫智者不敢為也。

shǐ fú zhì zhě bù gǎn wéi yě。

So that people of wisdom do not wish to meddle either.

 

14 為無為,

wéi wú wéi,

The lack of action in this way effects the desired change

 

 

15 則無不治。

zé wú bù zhì。

Then neither rules nor their implementation will have to occur.

 

 

last line is "rules:without:no:government/administration"

 

 

basically means the same as wu wei, I guess.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Well, if we're only talking about wei wu wei as it first appears in the Dao De Jing in chapter three,

there doesn't seem to be a necessary reason to make the character mean "for"

 

so long as we are keeping in mind the obvious flow of his thoughts [though sometimes "for" can mean "as a result" / doing it for/as a result of something/caused by. I would be inclined to work the sentence to include more connotations of the symbol].

 

I don't know how do you justify your reasoning. The proper Chinese for "wei wu wei" is always meant "for Wu Wei". I meant always. If you are insisting to twist the meaning to fit your own taste, thus I do not have a good reason to continue with the invalid argument.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I don't know how do you justify your reasoning. The proper Chinese for "wei wu wei" is always meant "for Wu Wei". I meant always. If you are insisting to twist the meaning to fit your own taste, thus I do not have a good reason to continue with the invalid argument.

"for wu wei" makes no sense in the above context. The sentence needs to be worked better than that. I think it may be your english that is the issue.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Dbl. Post

Edited August 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

"for wu wei" makes no sense in the above context. The sentence needs to be worked better than that. I think it may be your english that is the issue.

 

No, it is the understanding of the Chinese Classic. That is the issue. Please remember, the Classic has no grammar, it is not like English. If one use the English sentence structure to interpret the Classic is on the wrong approach. Anyway, I do not wish to continue to engage in this kind of endless argument.

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

You left your most important words for last. Was that intentional or was it wei wu wei?

I like to respond to any direct question

though I know the weekend has passed

So Im sorry if I am interrupting the linguistic arguments

I leave that to the guys who know that subject

 

Was it intentional ?

Yes I was trying to segue with the standard views

from my own angle

I dont actually see huge differences in the meanings

that are being attributed to the idea itself

 

My own description of behaviors ...

Minding your own business

performing the tasks that fall to you

reacting appropriate to the situation as it stands

accepting the limitations and options of the situation

working to avoid being self destructive

maintaining onesself as avidly as one would maintain

the wellbeing of others etc...

 

just doesnt seem to be contraindicated by any of the various

interpretations of the term that have been bestowed,

 

Except! for the definition which makes no sense at all

the one where you dont do anything and would be sentenced to rot in place.

 

If my meaning isnt the same as Lao-tsu s (as written

by whoever wrote out the most legit copy) ...

Which is possible...

I still wouldnt think myself to have given me a bum steer

Stosh

PS. I thought it ironic that in order to consider wei wu wei

you went out and did some.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Stosh