Brand New Wu Wei Thread

[ChiDragon]

Was that intentional or was it wei wu wei?

 

My interpretation of this statement...

Was that intentional or was it FOR Wu Wei.

 

Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

No, it is the understanding of the Chinese Classic. That is the issue. Please remember, the Classic has no grammar, it is not like English. If one use the English sentence structure to interpret the Classic is on the wrong approach. Anyway, I do not wish to continue to engage in this kind of endless argument.

 

Sure, we can stop it or start a new thread about interpretation, but the bolded above is exactly my point. There is no grammar, thus it is less specific than English, so just replace one word for another does not convey very much at all to an English speaker. This is why translations work around the words. Look at how Thomas Cleary or Suzuki and Carus translate if you want to see how it helps to know various ways to convey something in English. Between Chinese and English there is not a direct link of the words and so it helps when the translator takes the time to show the various possibilities of meaning.

 

If you just match word for word, you end up with dry and misleading translations as have been discussed here and elsewhere.

 

If translating French to English it is easier as the words mostly have the same roots and the grammar can be equated.

 

From Chinese to English, the important thing is not the words that are used, but that the meaning conveyed is intelligible and the message is conveyed.

 

In latin languages, translation is much easier and the meaning more directly associated as words share the same latin associations. Chinese words have different associations than latin. This makes it important and useful to avoid word for word translations.

 

It is important to "show" and not just "tell" what is being said. Chinese to English needs some "description" to it, not just matching similar words. In fact many good translations don't even use the similar words as they don't line up to the meaning from an English standpoint of grammar.

 

 

Further discussion on this will probably derail the topic, so lets make a new thread if we want to explore this.

[ChiDragon]

Sure, we can stop it or start a new thread about interpretation, but the bolded above is exactly my point. There is no grammar, thus it is less specific than English, so just replace one word for another does not convey very much at all to an English speaker. This is why translations work around the words. Look at how Thomas Cleary or Suzuki and Carus translate if you want to see how it helps to know various ways to convey something in English. Between Chinese and English there is not a direct link of the words and so it helps when the translator takes the time to show the various possibilities of meaning.

 

1. If you just match word for word, you end up with dry and misleading translations as have been discussed here and elsewhere.

 

2. From Chinese to English, the important thing is not the words that are used, but that the meaning conveyed is intelligible and the message is conveyed.

 

3a. It is important to "show" and not just "tell" what is being said. Chinese to English needs some "description" to it, not just matching similar words.

 

3b. In fact many good translations don't even use the similar words as they don't line up to the meaning from an English standpoint of grammar.

 

4. Further discussion on this will probably derail the topic, so lets make a new thread if we want to explore this.

 

1. The initial action is to have it word for word, then go from there. Otherwise, one will be farther and farther away from the original meaning.

 

2. That may be true in some cases. The meaning between in the characters and words are so different. A slightly of in thinking due the cultural and language differences, it will send one ten thousand mile away.

 

3a. It requires both to "show" and "tell" from language to language for a better expression for comprehension.

 

3b. That was where the mistranslation begins.

 

4. This thread has been abandoned, it is a good place as any to discuss anything here.

 

 

PS.....

Our thinking are so different, I just cant just foresee that there is any merit for us to continue.

[Marblehead]

PS. I thought it ironic that in order to consider wei wu wei

you went out and did some.

Yeah, my life is that way most of the time.

[Marblehead]

My interpretation of this statement...

Was that intentional or was it FOR Wu Wei.

 

Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

Yeah, I'm having a problen with your word "FOR" but it hasn't appeared to be important enough for me to get into the conversation yet.

 

(I'm trying to read and understand what Y'all are talking about and saying/suggesting.)

 

Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

 

I think that this is about as close to perfect as one can get with as few words as possible.

[Marblehead]

PS.....

Our thinking are so different, I just cant just foresee that there is any merit for us to continue.

But you guys are so close to agreement that it is funny. I agree with both of you.

 

For a translation of the TTC what I would love to see is a side-by-side including:

 

1. The Chinese

 

2. The Wade-Giles or Pinyin

 

3. The literal translation

 

4. A grammatically correct paraphrasing.

 

How nice would that be?

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, I'm having a problen with your word "FOR" but it hasn't appeared to be important enough for me to get into the conversation yet.

 

(I'm trying to read and understand what Y'all are talking about and saying/suggesting.)

 

Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

 

I think that this is about as close to perfect as one can get with as few words as possible.

 

Wei Wu Wei = For Wu Wei. It is analogous to "for the people"

 

The idea is like this...

Why are doing the natural things...???

It was for the sake of Wu Wei because we know the philosophy of Wu Wei. Since we know the concept of Wu Wei, we just do everything in accordance with Wu Wei. Actually, we are doing all FOR Wu Wei(Wei Wu Wei).

 

I just realize this phrase is difficult for English speakers to accept. Just keep talking until we can come to a mutual understanding.

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I just realize this phrase is difficult for English speakers to accept. Just keep talking until we can come to a mutual understanding.

Yeah, we will have to do that. The opportunity will come very soon because it appears in Chapter 3 of the TTC.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Chi, I think we may both benefit from our disagreements. I am interested to hear how you see it since surely many (especially native Chinese) will see it the same.

 

Now, I do see how wei can be put as "for" in chapter 3. On looking back, I see that it really isn't a stretch from what I was thinking at first. I still don't think it is the best way to convey the text for English speakers though. It might not be a vast difference, but as they (fear mongering imperialist missionaries) say "the devil is in the details":

 

literally:

 

14 為無為,

wéi wú wéi,

for wu wei

 

15 則無不治。

zé wú bù zhì。

(rules:without:no:government/administration)

no rules, no government/administration

 

Taking the preceding lines into context (see post #45 of this thread), I think a clearer way to put this in English would be:

 

14 為無為,

wéi wú wéi,

The lack of action in this way effects the desired change

 

15 則無不治。

zé wú bù zhì。

Then neither rules nor their implementation will have to occur.

 

 

This is what I mean by "working the sentence." I think maybe when a Chinese person sees the direct-relative English words its easier for them to re-translate it into Chinese and say "okay, so their talking like this and this." My concern, though, is to bridge the latin root of words, and the Chinese associative roots of words, as well as the sort of assumption that Chinese has that the reader sees where he is coming from to mean what he means. This could be an even more difficult task for some non-native English speakers as it requires a fair bit of grammatical flexibility to give particular connotations to an English word.

 

An example would be "for." It can mean "to create" (as in line 14) "to be given to someone" and "the reason," so depending on the context, it could be better to work in it's specific meaning and include the meaning created by the flow of the text.

 

 

If you have some time, I suggest reading George Orwell: Politics and the English Language for more ideas of how to retain meaning in English writing (not that I have mastered this whatsoever, but it's pointers are very good).

 

 

...let me give another example of the kind of writing that they lead to. This time it must of its nature be an imaginary one. I am going to translate a passage of good English into modern English of the worst sort. Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:

 

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

Here it is in modern English:

 

Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

 

 

Basically, that is what happens when we take the "correct" words every time. Though they are correct, they manage to obscure meaning by being so correct and defined.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Chi, I think we may both benefit from our disagreements. I am interested to hear how you see it since surely many (especially native Chinese) will see it the same.

 

Now, I do see how wei can be put as "for" in chapter 3. On looking back, I see that it really isn't a stretch from what I was thinking at first. I still don't think it is the best way to convey the text for English speakers though. It might not be a vast difference, but as they (fear mongering imperialist missionaries) say "the devil is in the details":

 

literally:

 

14 為無為,

wéi wú wéi,

for wu wei

 

15 則無不治。

zé wú bù zhì。

 

 

 

Yes, I do agree that we may both benefit from our disagreements.

 

Now, let me translate these two phrases.

14 為無為,

wéi wú wéi,

for wu wei

Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei,

 

15 則無不治。

zé wú bù zhì。

Then, there is nothing that cannot be done(finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....)

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Wei Wu Wei = For Wu Wei. It is analogous to "for the people"

 

The idea is like this...

Why are doing the natural things...???

It was for the sake of Wu Wei because we know the philosophy of Wu Wei. Since we know the concept of Wu Wei, we just do everything in accordance with Wu Wei. Actually, we are doing all FOR Wu Wei(Wei Wu Wei).

 

I just realize this phrase is difficult for English speakers to accept. Just keep talking until we can come to a mutual understanding.

 

Im an english speaker and feel I am willing to accept the translation

if it makes sense .

This has nothing to do with the attitudes of native english speakers

it has to do with clarity.

 

wu wei means,,,, 'without unnatural action'

wei wu wei means ...'for the sake of being without unnatural action'

wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change'

wei wu wei means.... 'for the people'

 

 

reconfigured to english grammar

wei wu wei means

'effecting desired changes without unnatural action for the sake of everyone'

 

Does that put everyone on the same page linguistically?

Stosh

[Stosh]

Yeah, my life is that way most of the time.

Tao is irony manifest

Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Im an english speaker and feel I am willing to accept the translation

if it makes sense .

This has nothing to do with the attitudes of native english speakers

it has to do with clarity.

 

wu wei means,,,, 'without unnatural action'

wei wu wei means ...'for the sake of being without unnatural action'

wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change'

wei wu wei means.... 'for the people'

 

reconfigured to english grammar

wei wu wei means

'effecting desired changes without unnatural action for the sake of everyone'

 

Does that put everyone on the same page linguistically?

Stosh

 

These two are out of the question.

wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change'(Incorrect translation)

 

wei wu wei means.... 'for the people'

My original statement was analogous to but not equal to.

"FOR Wu Wei" is analogous to "FOR the people"

 

What I was trying to say is:

 

I am building up the country was for the good of the people(FOR the people).

 

I am doing all natural things for the concept of of Wu Wei(FOR Wu Wei).

[Stosh]

These two are out of the question.

wei wu wei means... 'The lack of action in this way effects the desired change'(Incorrect translation)

 

wei wu wei means.... 'for the people'

My original statement was analogous to but not equal to.

"FOR Wu Wei" is analogous to "FOR the people"

 

What I was trying to say is:

 

I am building up the country was for the good of the people(FOR the people).

 

I am doing all natural things for the concept of of Wu Wei(FOR Wu Wei).

Sorry Chi d

it still looks like you are crossing out "for the people"

and then endorsing it.

 

Wei wu wei means

You are doing natural things to act in a fashion in accordance with wu wei?

and wu wei means for the people so fully written it becomes

?

You are doing natural things to act in a fashion which is in accordance

with the welfare of the people.

 

Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Stosh...

Wei wu wei means

You are doing natural things to act in a fashion in accordance with wu wei?

 

and the finally result of the wu wei process means is for the people.

[JustARandomPanda]

*****

Edit:

 

*erased post*

 

 

Please read it first. You are defeating the purpose of this thread......

 

To ChiDragon - anyone at TTB is free to post in it whether they read the whole thread or not. The Defeat is in your own mind. Free it and the rest will follow.

 

Edited August 6, 2012 by SereneBlue

[ChiDragon]

Preliminary Note: I have not read the rest of this thread beyond the Opening Post.

 

Please read it first. You are defeating the purpose of this thread......

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[rene]

Please read it first. You are defeating the purpose of this thread......

 

What exactly IS the purpose of this thread, CD?

[Marblehead]

What exactly IS the purpose of this thread, CD?

And don't be asking me! I have no freakin' idea.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I missed your post Serene

 

all thinking out loud or whatever is welcome here.. Obviously...

 

[as evidenced by the long derails, for those who need a translation..]

Edited August 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

What exactly IS the purpose of this thread, CD?

 

The intended purpose was to find out what Wu Wei was. Somehow, people are twisting the meaning around and we got lost again.....

[ChiDragon]

I think that would make more sense

for the sake of wu wei

do not administer rules

 

To run a government, it is impossible not to administer any rules. What LaoTze was suggesting "rule with Wu Wei", he simply meant administer decrees to a minimal and let the people be.

[ChiDragon]

To ChiDragon - anyone at TTB is free to post in it whether they read the whole thread or not. The Defeat is in your own mind. Free it and the rest will follow.

 

Yes, I cannot agree more but keep it relevant....

[Harmonious Emptiness]

To run a government, it is impossible not to administer any rules. What LaoTze was suggesting "rule with Wu Wei", he simply meant administer decrees to a minimal and let the people be.

 

Meddling creates the problems mentioned in Chapter 3

 

That is why

 

The lack of action in this way effects [creates] the desired change

Then neither rules nor their implementation will have to occur

 

The idea is the lack of action that "wins the war before the battle begins" by not meddling too much, not glorifying or creating desire for glory as this just creates competition when people could be living together in harmony.

 

Also, this is not just for emperors and rulers, it is for anyone who chooses the path of wisdom as they will inevitably lead by the Watercourse Way. Decrees will be made by those who need to make them, when they need to make them, but it is not for the person of Dao to have to rely on them. He avoids problems before they happen by Wu Wei, non-interference et all...

 

Of course, keep in mind too that "government" is often meant as a verb.