Its not what goes into the mouth that currupts the spirit

[Melanie]

Recent event in my life have made me question my status as a strict vegetarian. I have been a vegetarian for ten years, I never tried to convince others to become one and I didn't become one for desire of purity. Simply put I didn't want my life maintained by the sacrifice of life from other animals if I could avoid it. I also rarely slipped in my diet and never on purpose, until recently that is. My wife (not legal living in Texas) became a vegetarian soon after we met despite my insisting she didn't have to be, she's trying but still eats meat about once a week.

 

Twice this year I have purposely ate fish, the first was a gift from my neighbor. When we first moved in our neighbor hated us because we are lesbians but we eventually won her over. She gave us salmon cakes in a show of neighborly friendship.

 

The second and more recent was my wife and I got invited to go fishing, but my wife didn't want to go unless she intended on catching something and if she caught something she'd want to eat it. So to get her to go and enjoy herself agreed I'd share what ever she caught. She ended up catching a catfish that took myself, my wife and our kitten two evenings to eat.

 

So where am I getting with this? Each time I felt guilt for eating the fellow creature, but I got over it by remembering stories of strict vegetarian practices being broken in order to maintain humility and be humble. The sacrifice of the creature is honored as well as the appreciation for the person offering it.

 

One of the main lines in justifying a bend in being a strict vegetarian is 'Its not what goes into your mouth that currupts the spirit but what comes out of it'. Im still a vegetarian despite these recent slips and I recognize even more now that my diet is not an act of vanity or separation but an appreciation for the sanctity of life, well animal life at least.

[Protector]

First the fish

AND THEN THE MEAT

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22893-meat-eating-thread/

[mrtiger]

I think you're exactly right here.

 

We have to be graceful and at certain times in our life when we're offered meat in certain situations we should accept. I think this is particularly true in alien cultures or foreign countries.

 

I've recently realised the Jain perspective on eating is actually a really good one. I.e. that eating itself is actually violent because of the micro organisms we consume.

 

So the ideal is just to eat what is needed and nothing more. It's easier said than done but a nice aspiration.

[mrtiger]

First the fish

AND THEN THE MEAT

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22893-meat-eating-thread/

 

I was veggie for about seven years. After living in Spain for three years I started eating a bit of meat as vegetarianism wasn't very developed whilst I was there.

 

But I always felt guilty as soon as I put that fork in my mouth. I began to think of the process and how the animals felt when they were slaughtered.

 

I could never get over it. So I'm happily a vegetarian again.

 

I don't regret my meat eating period, actually it made me realise what's important to me.

[Melanie]

First the fish

AND THEN THE MEAT

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22893-meat-eating-thread/

 

Lol I see what you mean but no I'll leave the meats to you for now at least.

 

The cow farmers in the town I live haven't convinced me yet that Bessy doesn't feel pain or have a soul so I'm pretty good about turning away the offer of a big bleeding stake.

As for the fishy's pain and soul I'll just have to honor there sacrifice on my own and try not to repeat it anytime soon.

[mYTHmAKER]

So where am I getting with this? Each time I felt guilt for eating the fellow creature, but I got over it by remembering stories of strict vegetarian practices being broken in order to maintain humility and be humble. The sacrifice of the creature is honored as well as the appreciation for the person offering it.

 

One of the main lines in justifying a bend in being a strict vegetarian is 'Its not what goes into your mouth that currupts the spirit but what comes out of it'. Im still a vegetarian despite these recent slips and I recognize even more now that my diet is not an act of vanity or separation but an appreciation for the sanctity of life, well animal life at least.

 

Sorry but i see this as rationalization, to alleviate guilt.

If you want to eat meat accept it and enjoy it.

Time to once again post my poem

 

Poets

are often

eaten alive;

their flesh

can be

quite tender.

 

At one time

I ate dead bodies

with the

best of them,

never fully

understanding

the implications

and

the pain

of how

they arrived

at my table.

 

Then one day

the desire,

to eat

empty houses

of souls who

have left

or been

forced to

evacuate,

was gone.

 

What to do?

 

With no

effort,

not knowing

how or why;

just as

some people

no longer

wish to work,

brush their teeth,

exercise,

or

swim in the sea

in dead of winter,

my desire left me.

 

What to do?

 

I imagine

human beings

as quite tasty

and would

just as soon

eat

a cow,

a cat,

a dog,

a pig,

as a poet.

So why the fuss.

 

Sometimes

I wake up

in a cold sweat

to the sounds

of vegetables

screaming!

 

What to do?

[Aaron]

Hi Melanie,

 

If you're looking for someone to tell you it's alright that you ate fish, don't. No one needs to give you permission to eat what you choose to eat. Vegetarianism is a choice, not an obligation. If your heart tells you no, then don't do it, but if your heart tells you yes, then do. I think you are weighing the benefits vs. the harm and making a decision in each situation and that's all we can really do.

 

Hypothetical: The king tells the vegetarian that unless he eats a hamburger the whole town will be put to death. Does he adhere to his principles and save the cow, or eat the cow and save the town?

 

It's a bit out there, but you get my drift. Nothing is ever black and white, there are always shades of grey.

 

Aaron

[mrtiger]

Sorry but i see this as rationalization, to alleviate guilt.

If you want to eat meat accept it and enjoy it.

Time to once again post my poem

 

Poets

are often

eaten alive;

their flesh

can be

quite tender.

 

At one time

I ate dead bodies

with the

best of them,

never fully

understanding

the implications

and

the pain

of how

they arrived

at my table.

 

Then one day

the desire,

to eat

empty houses

of souls who

have left

or been

forced to

evacuate,

was gone.

 

What to do?

 

With no

effort,

not knowing

how or why;

just as

some people

no longer

wish to work,

brush their teeth,

exercise,

or

swim in the sea

in dead of winter,

my desire left me.

 

What to do?

 

I imagine

human beings

as quite tasty

and would

just as soon

eat

a cow,

a cat,

a dog,

a pig,

as a poet.

So why the fuss.

 

Sometimes

I wake up

in a cold sweat

to the sounds

of vegetables

screaming!

 

What to do?

 

Nice poem.

 

I think it's true that to eat, and actually to live, we have to kill be that plant, microbe or insect crushed under foot - it's something we can't avoid.

 

So it's a mistake for vegetarians or vegans to consider themselves holier than thou.

 

But if we accept that to live is also to destroy, we can at least try and minimise that as much as possible and not eating meat is a great step to that. Not only for the animals but in terms of the eco system of the planet as well.

 

In the West of course most of us have a choice of what we can eat. We're very lucky.

 

If I was a Sami or an Inuit, I imagine that there wouldn't be any alternative to meat and fish.

[Melanie]

Oh no I wasn't looking for anyone to say its ok to eat a fish I just felt like sharing a personal reflection on the topic.

 

I am fully aware that I kill and maim countless plants and that being vegetarian doesn't not exclude you from having the maintain life through death and destruction. Just I never have a moral issue with killing a carrot. I feel that its the plants nature to be aware of its sacrifice in the process of life. So no I don't have nightmares of plants screaming possibly due to an ascuded view of the situation considering I view it as the sentient life is unaware of being killed for food while the appearingly unsentient is aware of itself being used for food.

[Aaron]

Oh no I wasn't looking for anyone to say its ok to eat a fish I just felt like sharing a personal reflection on the topic.

 

I am fully aware that I kill and maim countless plants and that being vegetarian doesn't not exclude you from having the maintain life through death and destruction. Just I never have a moral issue with killing a carrot. I feel that its the plants nature to be aware of its sacrifice in the process of life. So no I don't have nightmares of plants screaming possibly due to an ascuded view of the situation considering I view it as the sentient life is unaware of being killed for food while the appearingly unsentient is aware of itself being used for food.

 

Did you ever consider that the animal might be aware that it's in its nature to be food as well? The rabbit runs from the wolf because it knows this. Is the wolf bad for chasing the rabbit? Is the rabbit bad for not submitting to the wolf's need? Neither of these is true, rather both understand their place within the natural order, so they give themselves to it. The rabbit does not hate the wolf for eating it, that I do know, so the wolf has no karma attached to its act, just as man has no karma attached to the act, unless they believe the act to be bad. At least that's how I feel about it.

 

Aaron

[suninmyeyes]

The rabbit does not hate the wolf for eating it, that I do know, so the wolf has no karma attached to its act, just as man has no karma attached to the act, unless they believe the act to be bad. At least that's how I feel about it.

How do you know ? How many rabbits have you spoken to?

 

Melanie,

why feel guilty? Dont do it for too long - it is boring ,waste of time and feels uncomfortable.

So many people without food would be grateful for that fishcake, so you are lucky to have it and eat it.

Whatever our food choice or circumstances - gratefullnes to the nature and acknowledging respectfully the way food found its way to the plate rules.

[Aaron]

How do you know ? How many rabbits have you spoken to?

 

Hmm... not many, but I've owned numerous and had to eat a few of them in the past. I'm using the notion of hate in the human sense, do they dislike the wolf for chasing them? Maybe. Do they have a deep and abiding seething hope that all the wolves will be wiped from the face of the earth simply because they're different than the rabbit? I don't think so.

 

I'm assuming that rabbits, unlike people, have natural emotions in this regard and hence are less likely to hold on to worthless emotions such as this.

 

I do appreciate your concern regarding this, because I'm certain calling this one point into question now saves us all from that eternal question that must be answered, "does the rabbit hate the wolf?"

 

Aaron

Edited August 5, 2012 by Aaron

[3bob]

The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

 

Eating and Drinking

 

"THEN an old man, a keeper of an inn, said, Speak to us of Eating and Drinking.

And he said:

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.

But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship,

And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.

When you kill a beast say to him in your heart:

 

"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.

For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.

Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."

 

And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart:

"Your seeds shall live in my body,

And the buds of your to-morrow shall blossom in my heart,

And your fragrance shall be my breath,

And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."

 

And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart:

"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,

And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."

And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;

And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress".

 

Om

[Rokazulu]

From a particular perspective, all things are a fantastic interplay of loving energy that allows consciousness to choose between the multiplicity of possible outcomes, therefore eating meat is perfectly acceptable.

 

Incidentally, murder, rape, and cannibalism is also acceptable.

[C T]

From a particular perspective, all things are a fantastic interplay of loving energy that allows consciousness to choose between the multiplicity of possible outcomes, therefore eating meat is perfectly acceptable.

 

Incidentally, murder, rape, and cannibalism is also acceptable.

Right Conduct is one of the major pillars of a spiritual cultivator, hence, on the relative level, one would know, by nature of one's path, that murder, rape, cannibalism are detrimental to one's inner journey.

 

I do not agree that all things are a fantastic interplay of loving energies -- such lines of thought can be troublesome.

 

In most authentic spiritual traditions, there is often found certain emphasis on abstinence and hard discipline, but in Buddhism the practice of Sila takes one beyond abstinence and forceful discipline. Thru understanding this precept, It allows the adherent to naturally discover, within himself or herself, the heart that yearns to avoid that which is unwholesome, leading to Samadhana, meaning harmony and coordination. When one gradually learns to see the fruits of one's thoughts, then, unwholesome actions can be dropped without force, and wholesome actions will follow, leading to full ease. Knowing what is wholesome, mindfully, and cultivating what is wholesome, mindfully, this is the path of Right Conduct.

[mrtiger]

From a particular perspective, all things are a fantastic interplay of loving energy that allows consciousness to choose between the multiplicity of possible outcomes, therefore eating meat is perfectly acceptable.

 

Incidentally, murder, rape, and cannibalism is also acceptable.

 

It's an interesting point.

 

I mean logically. If eating say, a lamb, is acceptable then why not a human.

 

Why is canibalislm a taboo and eating meat not.

 

I mean sheep have emotions, they suffer just like humans do so what really is the difference?

[Jetsun]

I guess it could be a controversial view but humans are at a higher point of evolution than animals so potentially when a human eats an animal it creates the potential for a transformation of the energy of its body to a higher vibration, so its life potentially serves the progression and evolution of the wider world. This process is explained scientifically using the law of octaves and system of hydrogens within the Fourth Way system, but it is dependent on whether a person is cultivating correctly otherwise food just serves lower needs like anxiety and pleasure rather than being converted for higher purposes.

[Christian]

It's an interesting point.

 

I mean logically. If eating say, a lamb, is acceptable then why not a human.

 

Why is canibalislm a taboo and eating meat not.

 

I mean sheep have emotions, they suffer just like humans do so what really is the difference?

 

This is not logical and it is nihilistic.

 

You are equating a lamb with a human(?). If you draw the distinction between plant an animal you must also draw a distinction between lamb and human. Canibalism is a creation of society. Eating ones own does not appear in all human cultures. Eating animals, however, does.

 

And you also claim that that canibalism is always wrong. If one man is dead and another is starving would the other eat him to survive? Most people would and they would thank the departed.

 

It is not canibalism or meat eating that is right or wrong, it is the intention behind the act that makes it right or wrong. If you are enlightened you act with no intention and therefor create no kamma.

 

I was vegetarian for years but I ended up having poor wound healing so now I eat meat. Natural is what is healthy for our particular body. The body has more intelligence than we could ever capture with thought. We just need to get out of its way.

 

I found when I stopped worrying about others suffering and focused on why I was suffering I automatically reduced the suffering of others with out effort. Wu Wei.

[Christian]

I guess it could be a controversial view but humans are at a higher point of evolution than animals so potentially when a human eats an animal it creates the potential for a transformation of the energy of its body to a higher vibration, so its life potentially serves the progression and evolution of the wider world. This process is explained scientifically using the law of octaves and system of hydrogens within the Fourth Way system, but it is dependent on whether a person is cultivating correctly otherwise food just serves lower needs like anxiety and pleasure rather than being converted for higher purposes.

 

Ha! What form of Taoism is this that says that humans are higher and animals are lower?

 

Look at the crocodile, it has been living on the earth, unchanged for 200 million years, and we humans? 200,000! Lets wait to see if we out last the crocodile before we make such claims!

 

The silly writing here sometimes!

 

P.S. I do not wish to vibrate more, I want to vibrate less. Everyone is running around like ringing cell phones, vibrating all over the place....

[3bob]

Ha! What form of Taoism is this that says that humans are higher and animals are lower?

 

Look at the crocodile, it has been living on the earth, unchanged for 200 million years, and we humans? 200,000! Lets wait to see if we out last the crocodile before we make such claims!

 

The silly writing here sometimes!

 

P.S. I do not wish to vibrate more, I want to vibrate less. Everyone is running around like ringing cell phones, vibrating all over the place....

 

Ah, and the silly stuff the North Carolina guy sometimes says...

[Everything]

What to do?

There is a lamb that needs to be slaughtered. You try to surrender it. By trying so, you create more struggle. First you have to surrender, only then can you guide the lamb to surrender. By letting the struggle be and be with it. If you are unwilling to die with the lamb, don't kill it! If you are unwilling to die with the vegetable, DON'T EAT IT! Die from hunger if you have to. Overcome your fear first.

 

As you do not eat your food in complete and utter surrender to the universe and all of existance, you shall regret all that you have ever placed in your mouth. Wether insects, water, meat, vegetables, you name it. For killing is self denial. There exists no death. There is no one present but you. At the end of the day, you will experience all of it. All good and all bad that you have done onto others. You will experience it all in one single moment upon death. Here and now you will experience it. The day that you surrender to here and now you will experience all of it. You will be dead when you live here and now. You will be dead, without a self and yet you will be more alive then you have ever been! How wonderful that is.

[billb]

Lol I see what you mean but no I'll leave the meats to you for now at least.

 

The cow farmers in the town I live haven't convinced me yet that Bessy doesn't feel pain or have a soul so I'm pretty good about turning away the offer of a big bleeding stake.

As for the fishy's pain and soul I'll just have to honor there sacrifice on my own and try not to repeat it anytime soon.

 

There are a lot of people that fish and are vegetarians. They just release the fish. I fish all the time and often release the fish and I am not a vegetarian. I know people who release 100 percent of their catch and they are not even vegetarians. Just saying you don't have to give up fishing if you enjoy it.

[Jetsun]

 

 

There are a lot of people that fish and are vegetarians. They just release the fish. I fish all the time and often release the fish and I am not a vegetarian. I know people who release 100 percent of their catch and they are not even vegetarians. Just saying you don't have to give up fishing if you enjoy it.

 

I used to fish and every time the fish was brought out the water it would shit itself in what I assume is outright terror, so I don't think it is the most compassionate pursuit.

[Protector]

Catch a fishy and give it to a kitty, they like em

[Melanie]

Catch a fishy and give it to a kitty, they like em

 

We shared it with the Kitty because it was too big for her to eat before it would have gone bad and smelly'd up the apartment.