do all taoists believe in immortality and ...

[mile83]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

Hello all!

 

I can't really find an answer on the net, I hope somebody could help me clear this up for me. Thank You very much, guys !

[Marblehead]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

Hello all!

 

I can't really find an answer on the net, I hope somebody could help me clear this up for me. Thank You very much, guys !

First: Greetings and Welcome.

 

Second: No, not all Taoists believe in immortality because I do not. I cannot speak for anyone else.

 

Yes, we return to the source. The source was nothing. Quess what! We return to nothing. Too bad.

 

We have discussed this concept in a number of threads here at TaoBums. Yes, there are many Taoists who believe in immortality in various forms.

[Aaron]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

Hello all!

 

I can't really find an answer on the net, I hope somebody could help me clear this up for me. Thank You very much, guys !

 

The majority of Eastern Taoists do believe in the concept of immortality, but not that everyone can attain it. The immortals are people who have attained immortality, in other words they either haven't died or have been able to reincarnate with a memory of their past lives, in other words their ego and personal identity persists.

 

I personally believe that it is possible to attain immortality, just as I believe it is possible that you can train a pig to play mozart. In other words it isn't very likely that it occurs, rather it is another creation of religion to assuage the fear of death and encourage people to practice Taoism.

 

Aaron

[Thunder_Gooch]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

Hello all!

 

I can't really find an answer on the net, I hope somebody could help me clear this up for me. Thank You very much, guys !

 

I view us all essentially as immortal whether we do anything about it or not. However memories are lost from life to life, ego, personality, etc..

 

Immortality for me is about stopping the reincarnation process, retaining ego, personality, memory, etc.

[Cheshire Cat]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

Hello all!

 

I can't really find an answer on the net, I hope somebody could help me clear this up for me. Thank You very much, guys !

 

I do not claim to be a taoist.

 

Usually, an average taoist believe that in order to reach union with the dao, you need to cultivate immortality first.

 

The real question is "what is to cultivate immortality?"

Here, you may receive dozens of answers...

[ChiDragon]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

So, one can integrate oneself with the Universe to absorb the uni-chi for living naturally and die of natural cause...

[baiqi]

"Immortal", is, in the taoist context, a person who unifies him or her( women can do it too ) self with the Tao.

 

The source was nothing. Quess what! We return to nothing. Too bad.

 

From "emptiness" arises "something" again. This is in the DDJ.

[Marblehead]

From "emptiness" arises "something" again. This is in the DDJ.

Of course. I just didn't say it.

[ChiDragon]

The source was nothing. Quess what! We return to nothing. Too bad.

 

From "emptiness" arises "something" again. This is in the DDJ.

 

有生於無

The visible(you) was engendered from the invisible(wu).

 

Wu(無) is when Tao was being invisible.

You(有) is when Tao was being visible.

[Marblehead]

有生於無

The visible(you) was engendered from the invisible(wu).

 

Wu(無) is when Tao was being invisible.

You(有) is when Tao was being visible.

I agree with that post too, I just didn't say it. Hehehe.

[idquest]

.. why is it so important if eventually you merge with the Tao anyway?

 

Hello all!

 

I can't really find an answer on the net, I hope somebody could help me clear this up for me. Thank You very much, guys !

It is not important at all. It is just whether you have a calling or not. If all your friends are taoists and you don't feel a thing about it - no worries, no sweating. Do you life yourself.

[Wayfarer]

Well from the stuff I've read there are two different ideas regarding Immortality (and I'm sure it is on TB somewhere too):

 

1) Practise qigong, eat the right stuff, save your energy, don't leak energy from worrying blah blah, you live longer.

 

2) Having meditated, calmed your energy (Tiger) so it settles to the place of the spirit (Dragon) in the Dantien - the two copulate (oh yes) and then the stillness of Tao is known - which I guess is just a way of saying eventually you notice a different presence; an undisturbed pooling of something in or around your gut. Ok, still not immortal. A person who then notices the same presence outside of them Awakens to the oneness of inside and outside being the same. All things share a common trait (because they are all an IT) and therefore when it is noticed in one object it is then seen everywhere. Hence Buddhist tradition saying Buddha awakened when glancing up at the planet Venus then seeing its light everywhere. Whatever happens - a Oneness is known that makes you realise no matter what happens to you, you remain that oneness. I think Dogen said something similar when discussing time with students - "if you take some wood, burn it then view the ashes as the future tense of the wood, you misunderstand...wood is Suchness expressed as wood, ash is Suchness expressed as ash"...therefore the Suchness of wood has not changed by being burned. It is the Suchness that is immortal. To know this, a person must awaken to the fact they are not distinct.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Heath

[Marblehead]

1) Practise qigong, eat the right stuff, save your energy, don't leak energy from worrying blah blah, you live longer.

Yep. That's as close as I get to the word immortality.

[mile83]

Thanks for all your answers, I appreciate it.

 

I didn't get it still but I'm learning !

 

So immortality = ONeness with Tao?

 

Hm sorry my English is not so good, I've read all the posts, but maybe I just didn't get it yet, I'm slow lol ^^

[ChiDragon]

So immortality = Oneness with Tao?

 

It means unite yourself with Nature and live naturally in accordance with the principle of Nature. The principle of Nature is just to let it be or let it happen as the way it should and will be.

Edited August 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[zerostao]

some taoists sought after physical immortality and while they may have fallen short of that goal,

many of us still benefit from the qigongs and herbal knowledge gained. a few extreme longevity cases

have been reported. for me, tho, true longevity is in the spirit realm.

philosophers come and go, some are more concerned with death rather than life, as was the apparent case of socrates.

Edited August 7, 2012 by zerostao

[mile83]

It means unite yourself with Nature and live naturally in accordance with the principle of Nature. The principle of Natural is just to let it be or let it happen as the way it should and will be.

 

thanks Chidragon, you're always very helpful

[Guest RBSA]

Immorality is not inherent to earth . But immortals are only incarnations from heavens . Don ' t worry . If you trouble your brain about being immortal or not you probably are . Maybe you ' ve got a mission .

[eye_of_the_storm]

Edited August 26, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[zerostao]

i acknowledge that Taoist Immortals and other Immortals exist

[Stosh]

Being one with the tao is called being dead

Its out of your control

Youll get there anyway

Life and sentience are properties of the universe

its an illusion you have that you are an individual that can live.

Live well and return to the dust from which you came

having played your part well.

Just my opinion though.

Stosh

[exorcist_1699]

Three reasons make people die : accident, aging and diseases.

 

Accidents occupy a small percentage , most people, in fact, die from diseases and aging. And, most diseases make people die because of their experiencing their old age, so whether we can get rid of aging is the main test of the possibility of physical immortality.

 

Taoist standpoint is simple: if aging is an slow approach of death, gradual realization of death, then if we can stop its proceeding, even reverse its steps, we can claim , to a large extent, the success of attaining physical immortality. By accumulating qi and refining it , we can do this great experiment on ourselves .In fact, different from the Buddhist , Taoist enterprise lies not in rescuing people, which is only the by-product of Taoist practice, but in exploring and realizing the secret of this universe...

 

Taoism emphasizes proof , but not in the sense of Western science because in Taoism there is no split of spirit and objects, no split of a cool observer and the things he is observing .Taoist proof is composed of both physical and spiritual aspects:

 

An everlasting , disease-proof body and a superb mental ability of understanding everything happen around , every area of human knowledge , are the proof of the correctness of its practice, despite methodologically it has to repeatedly remind people of not sticking to them.

Edited August 27, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[zerostao]

" no split of a cool observer and the things he is observing"

and many who subscribe to this also think that while the thing is being observed it wont age becoz of that,

which makes little sense

 

it is true that a very rare rare few ever die of natural causes

 

Taoism emphasizes proof yes yes

 

"Life and sentience are properties of the universe"

the source of the universe and its properties comes from the Tao

 

"Being one with the tao is called being dead"

been reading sartre?

[samwardell]

Historically there is a tension regarding immortality. In the religious practice of Taoism there is a lot of focus on immortality. However in philosophical Taoism there seems to be the exact opposite! In fact in the Chuang-tzu and Lieh-Tzu an acceptance of the inevitability of death is seen as a characteristic of the sage (see in particular Chuang-tzu chapter 6). In Chp 1 of the Chuang-tzu those who seek immortality are gently mocked. Interestingly this opposition to immortality practices in the early Taoist texts lead some Han dynasty Taoist alchemists to reject the authority of these books!

 

A C Graham says the following about this strange tension: "It is a fascinating irony that the label 'Taoism' came to apply both to a philosophy which demands before anything else reconciliation to the natural cycle of of life and death, to the decay of the body and the loss of personal identity ... and to magical, religious or proto-scientific measures for reversing the spontaneous course of biological process to fulfill the most unrealistic of our hopes , to live forever." (Graham 1981 p176)

Edited August 28, 2012 by samwardell

[Nelida]

" I think Dogen said something similar when discussing time with students - "if you take some wood, burn it then view the ashes as the future tense of the wood, you misunderstand...wood is Suchness expressed as wood, ash is Suchness expressed as ash"...therefore the Suchness of wood has not changed by being burned. It is the Suchness that is immortal. To know this, a person must awaken to the fact they are not distinct."

 

This is essential! It is, I think, the recognition of Oneness, non-duality, the Suchness is 'immortal' or maybe a better word might be perpetual, everlasting, as immortal has too many connotations of never-ending human life for the essence of Suchness.

 

If you can experience this, truly recognize it to be true, you are in Tao,

for that you need to increase your Awareness, which I think may be The reason for our existence, enhance or increase Awareness/Consciousness, really expand, beyond humanness,

which is not to say that seeking Consciousness must be expanded to attain immortality, in this I can find reason in the opinion of old masters that immortality ( of Awareness, not of physicality...? ) is an aberration, as it defies the natural cycle of the elements/phases/movements, but maybe the spark of consciousness exists through all that, beyond it, I don't know...

 

Does the point of view change if you see Wuji not as nothingness but as potential, as yet unmanifested everythingness?

 

∞Nelida

Edited August 31, 2012 by Nelida