Marblehead Posted August 5, 2012 Hi Rene, What a great introduction to a discussion of the concepts of wu-action, wu-desire, and wu-wisdom!!! I wish you would have said a little more about the You (Yo) state in order to show the connection/separation. Do you mind if we use this thread for our discussion of 'wu wei'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 5, 2012 Hi Rene, What a great introduction to a discussion of the concepts of wu-action, wu-desire, and wu-wisdom!!! I wish you would have said a little more about the You (Yo) state in order to show the connection/separation. Do you mind if we use this thread for our discussion of 'wu wei'? Marblehead, hi Sure, I'll add material about the You-state; especially it's interaction with the Wu-state - which reflects the reverting nature of Tao. (-: Maybe it would be better to not turn this thread into another limited "wu wei" focused thread, as there are already two going on now - and instead we can use this thread to explore the expanse of the ideas presented. Whatcha think? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 5, 2012 Marblehead, hi Sure, I'll add material about the You-state; especially it's interaction with the Wu-state - which reflects the reverting nature of Tao. (-: Maybe it would be better to not turn this thread into another limited "wu wei" focused thread, as there are already two going on now - and instead we can use this thread to explore the expanse of the ideas presented. Whatcha think? Sounds good to me. Yes, perhaps better to keep this open-ended so that more significant Taoist concepts can be discussed instead of only the concept of 'wu wei'. Looking forward to a good discussion here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 5, 2012 Marblehead, hi Maybe it would be better to not turn this thread into another limited "wu wei" focused thread, as there are already two going on now - and instead we can use this thread to explore the expanse of the ideas presented. Whatcha think? The way this thread was presented, it cannot lead into the concept of Wu Wei. The term "Wu_action" has already leading us to step with the wrong foot. I do agree with the Wu-state if only we are talking about Chapter 1. However, the Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire do not have the equal significant value as Wu Wei has. Wu Wei is the fundamental philosophy of the Tao Te Ching. The Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire are merely examples suggested by LoaTze to advise the rulers how to execute the concept of Wu Wei for ruling their people. The term Wu Wei is a philosophy not any kind of action. It is not advisable to combine non essential notions with the main concept of Wu Wei. PS... We need a new thread to discuss Wu Wei alone to avoid any distraction. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 5, 2012 The way this thread was presented, it cannot lead into the concept of Wu Wei. The term "Wu_action" has already leading us to step with the wrong foot. I do agree with the Wu-state if only we are talking about Chapter 1. However, the Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire do not have the equal significant value as Wu Wei has. Wu Wei is the fundamental philosophy of the Tao Te Ching. The Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire are merely examples suggested by LoaTze to advise the rulers how to execute the concept of Wu Wei for ruling their people. The term Wu Wei is a philosophy not any kind of action. It is not advisable to combine non essential notions with the main concept of Wu Wei. PS... We need a new thread to discuss Wu Wei alone to avoid any distraction. ChiDragon, hi I'm glad you agree that a new thread for just WuWei is better, so neither thread is distracted, and I leave you and others to it. (-: Yes, the Wu-state is first presented in Chapter 1 of the TTC - and for a few folks, Ch 1 says it all and the remaining 80 chapters are delightful explanatory notes. LOL warmest regards 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 5, 2012 Okay. That's settled. I guess I have some work to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Okay. That's settled. I guess I have some work to do. You have more work to do and it seems I have less! I found something easier to read than long cut & paste posts: Excerpts The excerpts are clear and concise, yet are only a reflection of the depth of detail in the book. But they're enough to start with, and use for quoting in here, if anyone is interested in exploring the ideas further in the thread. If not, that's okay too. (-: warm regards . . [p.s. to Marblehead: it seems Wang has finally landed on a Romanization for Yu 有. [You = Yo = Yu] Edited August 5, 2012 by rene 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 5, 2012 Hey! That's not fair. How can he use "Yo" in his published work and use "Yu" in his discussion of his book on the internet? And besides, how can I say "yo", phonetically, (is that a word?) if it is spelled "Yu"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 5, 2012 Hey! That's not fair. How can he use "Yo" in his published work and use "Yu" in his discussion of his book on the internet? And besides, how can I say "yo", phonetically, (is that a word?) if it is spelled "Yu"? LOL just use Wu-wisdom and you'll be fine. Hey, CD, when you use the term 'grok it's quale' - that's what 'wu-wisdom' is pointing at. Cool, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) LOL just use Wu-wisdom and you'll be fine. Hey, CD, when you use the term 'grok it's quale' - that's what 'wu-wisdom' is pointing at. Cool, eh? I've already grokked its quale for 'Wu-wisdom'. It was just like it says, "no wisdom"...... Edited August 5, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 5, 2012 I've already grokked its quale for 'Wu-wisdom'. It was just like it says, "no wisdom"...... In your case, that might be accurate, indeed. 70 My Teachings are Easy 吾言甚易知 1 吾言甚易知也， 甚易行也。 My teaching is very easy to understand, and very easy to practice. 2 而人 莫之能知也， 莫之能行也。 But people cannot understand it and cannot practice it. 3 言有宗， 事有君。 All teachings have their principles. All efforts have their guiding rules. 4 夫唯無知也， 是以不我知。 Unless with Wu-wisdom, there is no way to understand my principles. 5 知我者希， 則我貴矣。 Few have understood my principles. Even fewer have followed my principles. 6 是以聖人 This is like a Sage 7 被褐而褱玉。 wearing drabness and hiding jades inside. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted August 6, 2012 ....................... Excerpts The excerpts are clear and concise, yet are only a reflection of the depth of detail in the book. But they're enough to start with, and use for quoting in here, if anyone is interested in exploring the ideas further in the thread. If not, that's okay too. (-: warm regards ..................... It's extremely interesting to view this from a Taoist vantage-point rene. Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 6, 2012 So do y'all think that we can talk about the differences/similarities between the states of "Wu" and "Yo" without suggesting that one state is better than the other? (Remember, I am a materialist.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 6, 2012 So do y'all think that we can talk about the differences/similarities between the states of "Wu" and "Yo" without suggesting that one state is better than the other? (Remember, I am a materialist.) This is a vague question.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 6, 2012 This is a vague question.... I know, but it was the best I could do at the time. Sometimes we don't "wu wei", we "yo wei". That is, we act with 'unnatural' intention and oftentimes these acts are not act that would be 'natural' but we have determined, through 'yo' thinking, that this would be the best thing for us to do under the circumstances. I mean, how would working an assembly line for thirty years be considered natural? But yet, earning money to support a family would be natural. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) If we are looking the Wu Wei and Yo Wu Wei, the thinking now is this: In the contrast, Yo Wei is intentional. Wu Wei is unintentional. In both case, naturalness has less significance then Wu Wei alone by itself. Another words, when only Wu Wei was addressed, "unnatural action" must be considered. When both Wu Wei and Yo Wei were compared, the unnaturalness may be disregarded. As long the notion of unintentional in the concept of Wu Wei, it is suffice. However, it is just a minor issue, but I thought it was worth to mention this subtlety. Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 6, 2012 If we are looking the Wu Wei and Yo Wu Wei, the thinking now is this: I think you pretty much it what I was pointing at. I suppose that the point I was trying to make is that there will be times in our life where conditions and circumstances will have us acting with and without intention as well as acting in ways that may be natural (for us) or unnatural. We live in the "Yo" (Manifest). We can't always remain in the "Wu" (Mystery [nature of Tao]) realm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 6, 2012 I think you pretty much it what I was pointing at. I suppose that the point I was trying to make is that there will be times in our life where conditions and circumstances will have us acting with and without intention as well as acting in ways that may be natural (for us) or unnatural. We live in the "Yo" (Manifest). We can't always remain in the "Wu" (Mystery [nature of Tao]) realm. I agree, but at the moment, we are trying to get the definition straight before we go into its application. Since applications are vary from case to case, therefore, I am only on a trail to investigate the pure aspect of the philosophy. Just for consistency and avoid distraction in the dialogs, I would like to keep the applications out for now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 6, 2012 ... I would like to keep the applications out for now. You got it, Bro! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 6, 2012 I agree, but at the moment, we are trying to get the definition straight before we go into its application. Since applications are vary from case to case, therefore, I am only on a trail to investigate the pure aspect of the philosophy. Just for consistency and avoid distraction in the dialogs, I would like to keep the applications out for now. ChiDragon, hi. Agree re applications, etc. Also - even though there may be disagreement between your use of "Wu" and Wang's use of "Wu" - please believe that what you are pointing at in the term "wu-wei" is exactly the same thing that Wang points at in the term "Wu-action": I sometimes describe this as "motion sans extraneous intent" - avoiding when possible the 'natural/unnatural' semantic dance. By 'extraneous intent' I mean intentions created by the mind, rather than...say..an instinctual jump out of the way to stay alive. MH - did the link give you enough re Yo? Or do you want more. (-: warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 6, 2012 MH - did the link give you enough re Yo? Or do you want more. (-: warm regards Hehehe. I'm sticking with my "Yo". I'm too old to be making too many changes in my life anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 6, 2012 ChiDragon, hi. Agree re applications, etc. Also - even though there may be disagreement between your use of "Wu" and Wang's use of "Wu" - please believe that what you are pointing at in the term "wu-wei" is exactly the same thing that Wang points at in the term "Wu-action": I sometimes describe this as "motion sans extraneous intent" - avoiding when possible the 'natural/unnatural' semantic dance. By 'extraneous intent' I mean intentions created by the mind, rather than...say..an instinctual jump out of the way to stay alive. MH - did the link give you enough re Yo? Or do you want more. (-: warm regards Hi, rene I know there are many paths to going from point A to point B; but the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 6, 2012 As you wish. (-: *** gatito - glad you're enjoying it! Thanks for the post; all are welcome to join in. warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2012 I would like to get back to Wang's discussion of 'wu wei'. In that link offered by Rene he states: "By acting with Wu, we may maintain our harmony with heaven." I have always, in my mind, translated "heaven" as 'the processes of the universe' sp to not confuse the word "heaven" with the Christian word "Heaven". Therefore, the quote above reads, in my mind, "By acting with wu, we may maintain harmony with the (natural) processes of the universe." And, of course, these processes of the universe are one and the same as the processes of Tao. And the universe is not speaking to something that is far, far away but it also includes our interactions with all things we interact with including other people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
