ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) CD, thanks. Using just your chapters...do you see any differences in uses (of wu) between this: Chapter 32 1. 道常無，名樸。 2. 始制有名， 1. When Tao was always in the State of Wu, thus it was simple and natural. 2. At the beginning of the manifestation of Tao, the names were given to all things that are created. - and this from your Ch 43 post - Again, 無(wu) here was used to negate "space" to make "space" become solidify. Thus 無間 means "non-space". *** . (I'm trying to see if we're at the same starting point...tks!) 1. 道常無，名樸。 Yes, the "Wu" means Tao is invisible(無). It did not negate anything else. BTW this "常無" carries the same meaning as in Chapter 1. Edited: Sorry, I'd over looked this part. - and this from your Ch 43 post - Again, 無(wu) here was used to negate "space" to make "space" become solidify. Thus 無間 means "non-space". The example given here was to negate something as the same for all the rest of the chapters. So, I included as one of the examples in the specific chapters as in my OP. Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Well, y'all have me at a position of information overload. But I will be patient. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 29, 2012 ChiDragon, hi. Sorry so long in responding and this reply might not be what you thought was coming. I appreciate the efforts you went to, posting the Chapters you chose to post. The disagreement between us is not a linguistic one..and actually there's no 'disagreement' at all - as your focus and my focus are on two different areas. Yours is of a scholarly analysis and translation/interpretation of The Laozi. Mine is of what comes through the words, in strong resonance with what is perceived. You are well versed in the Fingers, I only gaze at the Moon. The Chapters you chose to illustrate your position are: 1, 2, 11, 19, 32, 43, 46, 48 and 75. Other than Ch32, none of them are the ones Wang listed (from my Opening Post); ones in which we might have had an opportunity to compare our ideas or at least see if there was a common ground - between your focus and mine. You've stated you have extreme difficulty accepting his idea, and that's fine. You have centuries-worth of scholars to support of your position. All I have is what rings true, lines up, rises and falls with my every breath... What I found in Dr Wang, rather in his idea, was a creative aligning of the words and the resonance : The Wu state represents unconscious harmony with the whole Tao universe. We may figuratively describe this state as a man-heaven resonance state. Man is resonating, and becomes one, with heaven and earth. Laotzu describes the Wu state in Chapter 4, 5, 6, 10, 14, 16, 21, 25, 32, 34, 35, etc. Laotzu often showed both Wu and Oneness states in the same chapter. The subconscious Wu state cannot be described in detail, since whatever we can describe in detail will transmutate into the consciousness of the You state. This is emphasized by Laotzu in Chapter 67, where he said that Tao could not resemble anything describable, as Tao is always linked with the Wu state. When you first proposed, in a different thread, looking at the chapters in which "LaoTze used 無 (wu) in some special cases, in a very clever way throughout the Tao Te Ching" I thought you possibly were beginning to see, or as you call it "grok", what Dr.Wang was pointing at. Now, I'm not sure if you do or do not, and either way is fine, but I think our little project here is a wrap. Agree? If there is something more you want to add, that would be alright, too. (-: Again, thanks for the energy you put into this; most appreciated. warmest regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 Well, I'm not done with this yet. So there!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) Well, I'm not done with this yet. So there!!! I think there are two points to be observed in the 'differences' that Rene tries to explain: 1. Emphasis on text as words; The arbitrary comma placement - If one is simply translating words, then the comma placement is of utmost importance. This is how some can argue their position of their translation; place a comma after "Wu" and you can say this is about "Wu". This is very unconventional as a translation but one should tolerate it; This is the way of reading and writing words. 2. Emphasis on text as meaning; the Yin hidden within the Yang - Wang takes this approach and I would say most higher thinkers since words drop away at some point and one is left with an understanding beyond reading and writing words. A serious read of Flowing Hands transmission is a good example of this. I am not saying one has to agree with it but it is a good example to tolerate if one is willing to tolerate a much more unconventional translation as above. Edited August 29, 2012 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 I think there are two points to be observed in the 'differences' that Rene tries to explain: Yeah, I have always stayed with you and ChiDragon when Y'all would get into your pissing contests because I learned from your agreements as well as from your disagreements. Doesn't matter to me where the comma is or if it is left out completely - I can about the concepts that are being spoken of. Yes, Wang took an odd-ball approach to his translation. Big deal. In more than a couple places he was able to convey to me a concept much better than anyone else had. But then, I do agree with Chidragon as well in that we should try to translate the original to the best of our abilities. And that means: Where do we put the comma? Just because an individual concentrates on one view does not negate all other views. Chidragon really isn't as closed-minded as some think he might be. He has been very tolerant of my off-the-wall BS. So yes, in regards to the roots of how we live our life, there is the state of Wu, which I call the Mystery (Spiritual) and there is the state of Yo, which I call the Manifest (physical reality). We all know that I live mostly in Yo. But as Wayne pointed out, even if we become totally Yo, we may lose Tao but Tao never loses us and we can return to the state of Wu any time we are ready to do so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2012 Just because an individual concentrates on one view does not negate all other views. Chidragon really isn't as closed-minded as some think he might be. He has been very tolerant of my off-the-wall BS. That is true until the individual explicitly starts telling others they are wrong, they cannot translate, they are not chinese and so don't understand, they are not listening to native writers, they are not agreeing to the comma placement, belittle others while claiming they hold the keys to Wu Wei... I was simply the early voice in the wilderness calling BS on it all... now there are at least two dozen more who have called BS on it; I no longer have done so for many months... if you have not noticed... but it seems I still get chased around with his comments like a stalker... very telling on some level. Maybe some people just miss fighting with certain people... or it's just in their nature to put other's down and their view... whatever floats their boat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 29, 2012 We all know that I live mostly in Yo. But as Wayne pointed out, even if we become totally Yo, we may lose Tao but Tao never loses us and we can return to the state of Wu any time we are ready to do so. If that's your primary take-away on this then I say YAY!!! (-: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 29, 2012 I think there are two points to be observed in the 'differences' that Rene tries to explain: 1. Emphasis on text as words; The arbitrary comma placement - If one is simply translating words, then the comma placement is of utmost importance. This is how some can argue their position of their translation; place a comma after "Wu" and you can say this is about "Wu". This is very unconventional as a translation but one should tolerate it; This is the way of reading and writing words. 2. Emphasis on text as meaning; the Yin hidden within the Yang - Wang takes this approach and I would say most higher thinkers since words drop away at some point and one is left with an understanding beyond reading and writing words. A serious read of Flowing Hands transmission is a good example of this. I am not saying one has to agree with it but it is a good example to tolerate if one is willing to tolerate a much more unconventional translation as above. Nice, yes, thanks. (-: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 If that's your primary take-away on this then I say YAY!!! (-: Easy with those glasses - that's fine crystal! Yeah, I go back and forth often but I don't talk about it here as it would likely ruin my image. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 29, 2012 Yeah, I go back and forth often..... And as soon as you can entertain the idea that instead of 'back and forth' it's 'both at the same time' - then it's a 'round for the house! Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 And as soon as you can entertain the idea that instead of 'back and forth' it's 'both at the same time' - then it's a 'round for the house! Cheers! Been there, done that. Oktoberfest in Germany is one hellova party!!! Yes, I do agree with you but then, really, I do go back and forth. Hehehe. Sometimes I am so Yo I can't even believe myself. And that is why I prefer the concept of harmony over balance. I am one of the most unbalanced people you have ever known. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2012 That is true until the individual explicitly starts telling others they are wrong, they cannot translate, they are not chinese and so don't understand, they are not listening to native writers, they are not agreeing to the comma placement, belittle others while claiming they hold the keys to Wu Wei... I may follow the concept of Wu Wei as accused. If I don't, then that will be my first time of the miss usage of it. Just for your benefit of the doubt, I will remain silence and let the true meaning of the Tao Te Ching continue to be jeopardized. Thus I will leave myself defendless to maintain its integrity of the Tao Te Ching. However, I will be no long be your stalker with good reasons that you cannot come up with a better rebuttal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2012 I may follow the concept of Wu Wei as accused. If I don't, then that will be my first time of the miss usage of it. Just for your benefit of the doubt, I will remain silence and let the true meaning of the Tao Te Ching continue to be jeopardized. Thus I will leave myself defendless to maintain its integrity of the Tao Te Ching. However, I will be no long be your stalker with good reasons that you cannot come up with a better rebuttal. Your posting only for your own personal need and benefit... you've said in multiple threads as such and continue as you wont. No need to give reasons or excuses. We should all be aware of our way without excuse... It is the excuses which are unbecoming... and 'you wei'... not the first mis-usage... let's at least be honest while we are at this game... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) The Wu state represents unconscious harmony with the whole Tao universe. We may figuratively describe this state as a man-heaven resonance state. Man is resonating, and becomes one, with heaven and earth. Laotzu describes the Wu state in Chapter 4, 5, 6, 10, 14, 16, 21, 25, 32, 34, 35, etc. Laotzu often showed both Wu and Oneness states in the same chapter. The subconscious Wu state cannot be described in detail, since whatever we can describe in detail will transmutate into the consciousness of the You state. This is emphasized by Laotzu in Chapter 67, where he said that Tao could not resemble anything describable, as Tao is always linked with the Wu state. rene... Wow, this is a big turn in the State of Wu. I have gone over those chapters that you had listed. Now, I know what do you mean by the State of Wu which is the same as described in Chapter one all along. I am glad to go over each line which describes that Tao was invisible as in the State of Wu this time around. Thank you. Edited to add: PS..... Just in case, you are wondering why I had over looked at your list of chapters. It was because I had found some contradictory statements in the rest of the OP which threw me off. Edited August 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 rene... Wow, this is a big turn in the State of Wu. I have gone over those chapters that you had listed. Now, I know what do you mean by the State of Wu which is the same as described in Chapter one all along. I am glad to go over each line which describes that Tao was invisible as in the State of Wu this time around. Thank you. Edited to add: PS..... Just in case, you are wondering why I had over looked at your list of chapters. It was because I had found some contradictory statements in the rest of the OP which threw me off. Please be accurate in response... This is in response to : Wayne L. Wang* (Department of Nuclear Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139) and C. M. Shakin (Department of Physics, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio 44106) You may want to read more before posting... http://www.dynamictao.com/author_dynamictao.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 30, 2012 Please be accurate in response... This is in response to : dawei - maybe you two can poke at each other elsewhere. Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Please be accurate in response... This is in response to : Wayne L. Wang* (Department of Nuclear Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139) and C. M. Shakin (Department of Physics, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio 44106) You may want to read more before posting... http://www.dynamicta...dynamictao.html To be honest with you. Your posts are getting too personal. I had lost all my interest in dealing with your comments. This will be my last response to you. I don't really care what you think. Wu Wei or not, I am done with you. Period. No need to give reasons or excuses. We should all be aware of our way without excuse... Based on these comments is reasonable enough to discourage myself to continue with this......!!!! Edited August 30, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 30, 2012 Sorry....rene....!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 There was nothing to poke.... your original OP was Wang's ideas... I didn't want a response to be to "Rene"... the thread is about is about Wang's idea... CD has decided not to respond because he has no response to Wang... another chinese man... He took it personal while nobody else has... It is just a thread and discussion... talk or not talk... it is that easy in Wu Wei.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 To be honest with you. Your posts are getting too personal. I had lost all my interest in dealing with your comments. This will be my last response to you. I don't really care what you think. Wu Wei or not, I am done with you. Period. Based on these comments is reasonable enough to discourage myself to continue with this......!!!! Excuses... just post if you want... no more excuses and sad eyes... therapy is more expensive than the time you spend typing here... Just be real and be honest and be yourself... Nobody wants anything more from you... this is a welcome ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 30, 2012 rene... Wow, this is a big turn in the State of Wu. I have gone over those chapters that you had listed. Now, I know what do you mean by the State of Wu which is the same as described in Chapter one all along. I am glad to go over each line which describes that Tao was invisible as in the State of Wu this time around. Thank you. CD, hi, in the OP I jumped a few chapters in Wang's book to get right to it; you are right that the State of Wu is first described in DDJ Chapter One (and Two) and maybe I should have started there, as does Wang. Sorry for any confusion. No reason to go over each line now.. it's the (what you call 'invisible) aspect presented in DDJ1 that appears at times in the remaining 80. Of course, not every occurance of Wu reflects this aspect; oftentimes無 is just the standard negation. It's those other times, though, that makes one go 'ahhhh...' lol warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 30, 2012 There was nothing to poke.... your original OP was Wang's ideas... I didn't want a response to be to "Rene"... the thread is about is about Wang's idea... CD has decided not to respond because he has no response to Wang... another chinese man... He took it personal while nobody else has... It is just a thread and discussion... talk or not talk... it is that easy in Wu Wei.... Excuses... just post if you want... no more excuses and sad eyes... therapy is more expensive than the time you spend typing here... Just be real and be honest and be yourself... Nobody wants anything more from you... this is a welcome ) dawei, back off. First, what CD and a few others know and you may not, is I worked intensely with Dr. Wang throughout the creation of the manuscript; if you read the first half of the work (the second half is Wang's DDJ translation, which I stayed away from) what you'll find is his ideas expressed in my voice. (At that point in time his English grammer was pretty rough. It's much better now.) I cant speak for "Wang" but if it's his ideas you have a question about, I'm pretty much ramped up. Second, re "Nobody wants anything more from you" ? Speak for yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) No reason to go over each line now.. it's the (what you call 'invisible) aspect presented in DDJ1 that appears at times in the remaining 80. Of course, not every occurance of Wu reflects this aspect; oftentimes無 is just the standard negation. It's those other times, though, that makes one go 'ahhhh...' lol rene, hi Thank you...!!! It's sure make a difference with the minds of two people were met in synchronization when comes to understanding. Edited August 30, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 30, 2012 dawei, back off. stepping aside... reel it in... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
