The States of Tao

[gatito]

 

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***

 

gatito - glad you're enjoying it! Thanks for the post; all are welcome to join in.

 

warm regards

 

That's very kind - but I can't think of anything to add.

[ChiDragon]

I would like to get back to Wang's discussion of 'wu wei'.

 

In that link offered by Rene he states:

 

"By acting with Wu, we may maintain our harmony with heaven."

 

I have always, in my mind, translated "heaven" as 'the processes of the universe' sp to not confuse the word "heaven" with the Christian word "Heaven".

 

Therefore, the quote above reads, in my mind, "By acting with wu, we may maintain harmony with the (natural) processes of the universe." And, of course, these processes of the universe are one and the same as the processes of Tao.

 

And the universe is not speaking to something that is far, far away but it also includes our interactions with all things we interact with including other people.

Yes, MH

In general when the TTC mention heaven and earth...

Heaven is Nature

Heaven and earth is the Universe.

 

天(tien): heaven

By the TaoTe Ching definition, heaven implies 'natural', 自然(Zi Ren). In Chinese thinking, people will blame everything on heaven. They all say "oh my heaven" instead of "oh my God".

[rene]

... I suppose that the point I was trying to make is that there will be times in our life where conditions and circumstances will have us acting with and without intention as well as acting in ways that may be natural (for us) or unnatural. We live in the "Yo" (Manifest). We can't always remain in the "Wu" (Mystery [nature of Tao]) realm.

 

Because of the unboundaried nature of Tao, and the unboundaried natures of Wu and Yo, within each Yo-state Wu is also present. This is also reflected in Yin/Yang theory, i.e., within the fullest yang resides the seed of yin. So too with Wu and Yo. What this means is: regardless of what "Yo-state" you happen to find yourself in - Wu is also right there for transmutation. This palpable aspect is sometimes described as 'the reverting nature of Tao'.

 

Near the end of TTC Ch23 (F/E) - When you are at one with loss, The loss is experienced willingly. - is a reflection of this aspect, imo. The act of our minds 'letting go' of a situation seems to remove the 'yo-pressures' and a more natural wu-result seems to flow on it's own.

 

Some systems describe attaining the Wu-state like climbing a ladder, with the prize at the top. My perspective is: Climb if you wish, especially if you enjoy the climb, (-:, but Wu, and Tao, is right there on every rung.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

Because of the unboundaried nature of Tao, ...

 

See? Your really wanted to talk about it. Hehehe.

 

Yes, be careful of that ladder though; when you get to that top rung and try to go further you gonna' fall down. (Or maybe fly away.)

 

I agree with what you said, especially that there is a little Yang in Yin and a little Yin in Yang. Can't be completely either 'cause I think we would die. (But some of my personal observations would question what I just said.)

[rene]

See? Your really wanted to talk about it. Hehehe....

 

Unboundaried is what I live and breathe; talking about it is a rare delight, and I thank you for your words. (-:

 

warm regards

[Guest allan]

Below are exceprts from "The Dynamic Tao" by Dr. Wayne Wang, (Chinese, physicist, PhD from MIT). I have his permission to post sections for discussion. Those who've enjoyed Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Zukav's "Dancing Wu Li Masters" - might find The Dynamic Tao as the next step, the unification, of the ideas. Below is a feet-first jump into Wang's Ch 2, The States of Tao, followed by excerpts from Ch 4, Characteristics of the Wu State. Key points bolded by me, for those who wish to skim.

 

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After the short proclamation, Laotzu continued to define the manifestations of Tao. Laotzu describes the initial state of the Tao universe in Chapter 25, as "with chaotic substance, it exists before heaven and earth." This Tao universe is dynamically manifested in two states: Wu 無 and You 有.

 

The Wu state shows the intrinsic harmony of man and heaven. This state is inherently difficult to describe since man is merged subconsciously with all beings and with heaven and earth.

 

The Wu state represents unconscious harmony with the whole Tao universe. We may figuratively describe this state as a man-heaven resonance state. Man is resonating, and becomes one, with heaven and earth.

 

Can we really describe the Wu state? Wu is not a state of nothingness, but is a state of completeness and harmony. In Tao philosophy, the Wu state is never completely hidden, since there is always a You state encoded inside it.

 

It is clear that Wu-wei 無為 should not be interpreted as without action. Wu-wei is the spontaneous action that maintains harmonious interaction between man and heaven. We have translated Wu-wei literally as Wu-action or as the action according to the Wu state. By acting with Wu, we may maintain our harmony with heaven.

 

We should interpret Wu-zhi as the wisdom of the Wu state, or simply Wu-wisdom. This simple re-interpretation gives us a new state of mind to appreciate the positive nature of Tao.

 

***

 

The ideas presented by Wang fly in the face of those who ground their beliefs in 'emptiness' and 'nothingness' and those who have not yet overcome 'either/or' mindset, as they speak directly to the unboundaried nature of Tao.

 

warm regards

 

 

 

p.s. to Marblehead: Some of the excerpts posted may vary slightly from the published text; I'm gleaning from an earlier draft.

 

 

Just using the intellect to understand Tao has been a bane to Taoists down the ages.

 

When even the acknowledged whiz kid, Wang Bi, has had shown limitations in his understanding by using being (You) and non-being (Wu) to represent the states of Tao; it is unsurprising to find intellectuals trying hard to do the same.

 

It is rather unfortunate that Wang Bi has had a shortened life; otherwise he could have cultivated Tao and practised his Yijing for a few more decades and consequently know where his theories have had gone wrong.

 

For according to the Holy Sages who came - at least several centuries - before the time of Laozi, the Way of Heaven is the light and the dark. The Way of Earth is firm and yielding. And the Way of Man is benevolence (humaneness) and righteousness (justice). Taoists by cultivating these three Ways will come to know Tao; instead of using and following the theories of You and Wu, and the Wu Wei that theorists tend to wildly sprout.

 

Here we have fine individuals who are collectively more fortunate than Wang Bi – by having a longer life - and yet they rather waste their time in trying to understand profound Taoist concepts via modern books and their favorite theories. It is rather sad to see people whom you know clinging on to these theories for so long.

 

That is why I rarely join in these types of discussions, even where invited. Since everyone is entitled to free will and their opinions which means never-ending talks.

 

Bye!

[rene]

allan, hello

 

Thanks for joining in! You are right that intellect and words alone are not sufficient. Sans words, however, and the ability to understand them, we would not have the discussions to enjoy, or new ideas to explore... including ideas presented by you in your 156+ posts in TaoBums! One of the beauties of The Laozi, imo, is the balance shown in its expressions regarding the nature of change; and I'm glad to learn that you are not clinging to your own theories, and are remaining open for surprises to sneak in past the gates. (-:

 

warm regards

 

 

Just using the intellect to understand Tao has been a bane to Taoists down the ages.

 

When even the acknowledged whiz kid, Wang Bi, has had shown limitations in his understanding by using being (You) and non-being (Wu) to represent the states of Tao; it is unsurprising to find intellectuals trying hard to do the same.

 

It is rather unfortunate that Wang Bi has had a shortened life; otherwise he could have cultivated Tao and practised his Yijing for a few more decades and consequently know where his theories have had gone wrong.

 

For according to the Holy Sages who came - at least several centuries - before the time of Laozi, the Way of Heaven is the light and the dark. The Way of Earth is firm and yielding. And the Way of Man is benevolence (humaneness) and righteousness (justice). Taoists by cultivating these three Ways will come to know Tao; instead of using and following the theories of You and Wu, and the Wu Wei that theorists tend to wildly sprout.

 

Here we have fine individuals who are collectively more fortunate than Wang Bi – by having a longer life - and yet they rather waste their time in trying to understand profound Taoist concepts via modern books and their favorite theories. It is rather sad to see people whom you know clinging on to these theories for so long.

 

That is why I rarely join in these types of discussions, even where invited. Since everyone is entitled to free will and their opinions which means never-ending talks.

 

Bye!

[Marblehead]

Well, I am surprised whenever I get into a deeper discussion of Taoist Philosophy because I generally find me questioning myself and discarding or reaffirming my understandings.

 

Sure, I try to live according to the natural processes when I am not sitting in front of this computer. But when I am here there are many opportunities to question myself and others.

 

The concepts of Yo and Wu are important to me so I do my best to understand them in a manner that appears natural 'to me'.

 

Can I 'cultivate' all by myself? Sure. But then there is the danger that I would be cultivating illusions and delusions if there were no one to check me out and keep my feet on the ground while I am flying around on those pretty, fluffy clouds.

[GOOWDAY]

In TTC, "吾“ and ”我“ sometime don't refer to same person,In charpter 70," 不我知 " isn't the same meaning to " 不吾知".

 

You can try to understand it in another way.

 

First post for the new forums.

[GOOWDAY]

In your case, that might be accurate, indeed.

 

 

70 My Teachings are Easy 吾言甚易知

 

 

4 夫唯無知也，

是以不我知。

Unless with Wu-wisdom,

there is no way to understand my principles.

 

[ChiDragon]

FYI only

 

知(zhi1): to know; knowing; knowledge

智(zhi4): wisdom; smart; tricky in a smart way.

[rene]

FYI only

 

知(zhi1): to know; knowing; knowledge

智(zhi4): wisdom; smart; tricky in a smart way.

 

 

Hi ChiDragon, here is part of what W.Wang has re zhi1 and zhi4

 

****

 

The 知 and 智 are often used interchangeably in many ancient Chinese classics

and their distinctions are often made by the interpreters. Whenever their

distinction is observed, 知 is used as wisdom. Logographically, it is interesting

to note that 智 is written as “wisdom 知 that lasts over a day 日only. ”

 

Our interpretation of Wu-wisdom comes out of our analysis of

the two words, ZHI 知 and zhi 智, used in the Tao Te Ching texts.

For convenience, we use capitalized ZHI as wisdom and lower case

zhi as knowledge in the following discussion.

 

These two words are used inter-changeably in many ancient

Chinese literature. Laotzu used these words with clear distinction

and with consistency in the Tao Te Ching.

 

He used ZHI 知 as wisdom as associated with the Wu state - and zhi

智 as wisdom associated with the changing world, or the Yo state.

So 智 represents temporary wisdom, which we identify as knowledge.

Laotzu identifies ZHI (wisdom) with the Wu state and zhi (knowledge)

with the Yo state.

 

What is the distinction between ZHI and zhi? Simply put,

Laotzu said that the leader should have wisdom of Wu so he can

lead. (ttc ch 65&75). People at least should have enough wisdom of Yo, the

knowledge, to be guided to follow Tao.

 

Throughout the Tao Te Ching, we have a consistent

interpretation of wisdom of Wu and knowledge of Yo. This

interpretation is also consistent with Hsuntzu, who said that,

“Knowing within oneself is called wisdom. Knowing corresponding

to external things is called knowledge.” Lietzu made the same

distinction by saying: “Knowledge cannot be wisdom.”

Wentzu asked, “Seeking the true wisdom, can we attain Wu-wisdom? This is

the true wisdom.”

 

Laotzu emphasized that wisdom at the Wu level is the ultimate

wisdom that a leader should have in order to manage the people

effectively. He also emphasized the importance of knowledge, as the

wisdom of the Yo state. .....

 

****

 

Interesting stuff (-:

[rene]

In TTC, "吾“ and ”我“ sometime don't refer to same person,In charpter 70," 不我知 " isn't the same meaning to " 不吾知".

 

You can try to understand it in another way.

 

First post for the new forums.

 

GOOWDAY, hi, thanks for joining in!

 

I understand the general difference, but can you speak more to the subtle nuance as it affects ch 70?

 

warm regards

 

p.s.. I really liked your 'Hit the drums'. Strong feelings come.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You folks are a little bit ahead of me so I will just read as long as y'all keep talking.

[rene]

Hehehe. You folks are a little bit ahead of me so I will just read as long as y'all keep talking.

 

(-:

 

 

Sixty-six

Why is the sea king of a hundred streams?

Because it lies below them.

Therefore it is the king of a hundred streams.

If the sage would guide the people, he must serve with humility.

If he would lead them, he must follow behind.

In this way when the sage rules, the people will not feel oppressed;

When he stands before them, they will not be harmed.

The whole world will support him and will not tire of him.

Because he does not compete,

He does not meet competition.

[Marblehead]

Thank you Rene. That wasn't my intention.

 

Besides, I love to compete mentally. Hehehe.

[GOOWDAY]

When people read ttc,got some ideas,Laozi will say,"Good,That's your ideas,Not mine,Actually I didn't said anything about that."

Edited August 14, 2012 by GOOWDAY

[GOOWDAY]

 

"我" means oneself, IMO in chapter 70 "我" can refer to the reader.

 

 

In ch70, First he said "People cann't know it.", Then he said "Few people knew it."

If he really means in this way,Why he didn't say "Most of people cann't know it." at first?

 

Therefore IMO in ch70 "我" can refer to the reader.

[Marblehead]

In ch70, First he said "People cann't know it.", Then he said "Few people knew it."

If he really means in this way,Why he didn't say "Most of people cann't know it." at first?

 

Therefore IMO in ch70 "我" can refer to the reader.

 

In my mind he always meant "Few people knew it." (Few people understood it.)

[GOOWDAY]

In my mind he always meant "Few people knew it." (Few people understood it.)

 

Wang Bi version

天下莫能知......知我者希

No one can know it......Few people understood me.

silk text b version

而人莫之能知也......知者希

People cann't know it.......Few people knew it.

 

http://earlywomenmasters.net/tao/ch_70.html

[Marblehead]

Wang Bi version

天下莫能知......知我者希

No one can know it......Few people understood me.

silk text b version

而人莫之能知也......知者希

People cann't know it.......Few people knew it.

 

http://earlywomenmas.../tao/ch_70.html

Now, there is one condition where I can accept that. This would be where he is saying that people cannot "know" Tao but few people understood what he was saying.

[rene]

GOOWDAY, hi, thanks for explaining further. Your reasoning makes sense to me, especially:

 

"Laozi hided some unknow wisdoms in normal opinions like sage hided the jude with drabness, Maybe those unknow wisdoms just unutterable. When people reads the TTC,Those wisdoms will create some new ideas like seeds can grows up in different areas ...........Few people got those new ideas..."

 

...which actually parallels Marblehead's post: "... he is saying that people cannot "know" Tao but few people understood what he was saying."

 

It might not be "utterable" or "known", but ohhh mama, Tao truly rocks and to me it's as simple and natural as breathing. (-:

 

warm regards

 

[mYTHmAKER]

 

 

Be you ti ful pho toe

[Marblehead]

Hi Rene,

 

Funny. Your picture was a discussion stopper.

 

But we did start talking about "wu wei" and "yo wei" in another thread.

 

Regarding your last post I do agree that we cannot "know" Tao but I will quickly add that we can "experience" Tao. We can also observe and understand some of its processes in nature. And, of course, these sensual observations are primarily being done in the Yo state.

 

Have I mentioned that I probably love the Yo state more than the Wu state? I am, afterall, a materialist.

[Stosh]

Yes ,it is a very beautiful picture of a highly crafted , expensive

and manicured semblance of an idealized 'natural' place.

 

I wish it was my yard.

Stosh