The States of Tao

[dawei]

the term "wu-wei" is exactly the same thing that Wang points at in the term "Wu-action"

yes, that is how I understand him and think he is on to something but it may still be a bit too directly translating for some.

[dawei]

Have I mentioned that I probably love the Yo state more than the Wu state?

Would that be like someone saying they love being awake more than being asleep?

 

Is it a matter of what awareness is present (or not)? From a practical point of view, we tend to prefer what our senses tell us. That may be why Wu Wei (Wu-action, Wu-state) is not internally completely; the senses prevent it on some level.

[Marblehead]

Would that be like someone saying they love being awake more than being asleep?

 

Yes, I think it can be reasonably expressed that way.

 

Is it a matter of what awareness is present (or not)? From a practical point of view, we tend to prefer what our senses tell us. That may be why Wu Wei (Wu-action, Wu-state) is not internally completely; the senses prevent it on some level.

 

Indeed. When I am dreamlessly sleeping there is nothing. I suppose that is what death will be like. Mindless meditation is close to this. I suppose that is why I don't go there very often.

 

Yes, I like my senses; I like my emotions; I even like my ego. This is living, IMO.

 

[rene]

yes, that is how I understand him and think he is on to something but it may still be a bit too directly translating for some.

 

dawei, hi, agree. His ideas seem to resonate on a level other than one exclusively "knowledge" based. Also, regarding your - "From a practical point of view, we tend to prefer what our senses tell us. That may be why Wu Wei (Wu-action, Wu-state) is not internally completely; the senses prevent it on some level." For me, it's more that both are in play: my natural preference for peace, is always informed by the understanding that every action is one of creation and destruction, etc.

 

Glad you joined in. (-:

 

warm regards

[dawei]

For me, it's more that both are in play: my natural preference for peace, is always informed by the understanding that every action is one of creation and destruction, etc.

Both/And; Either/Or.... these are the 'way', definitely.

 

When I say "we tend to..." I mean the human condition... I do not mean my personal 'way'. I am cognizant of the public 'way' and need to recognize it... but I am glad to see your personal reflection and comments.... one should truly feel their own personal way and even be able to articulate it which you easily do.

[Marblehead]

Yep, we all have our own 'way' of learning, understanding and travelling.

 

Right now I am in the State of Florida. Still holding to my Yo state.

[ChiDragon]

rene....

I will take the opportunity per your offer from another thread to place the clever way of LaoTze in using the wu and you here. I have found something that is quite interesting from Chapters 1, 2, 11, 19, 32, 43, 46, 48 and 75.

Edited August 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

So when are you going to start this project?

[ChiDragon]

Sunday.......

[ChiDragon]

The clever ways of how LaoTze uses the characters wu(無) and you(有) to express himself throughout the TTC.

 

Chapter 1

1. 無，名天地之始。

2. 有，名萬物之母。

 

To describe the state of Tao by LaoTze:

1. At the beginning of the universe, he called Tao as 無(wu).

2.At the time when Tao become the mysterious female as the mother of all things, he called Tao as 有(you).

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 2

有無相生

 

有(you) and 無(wu) are mutually engender each other.

 

The 有(you) and 無(wu) in Chapter 2 were referred as the same 有(you) and 無(wu) in Chapter 1.

[rene]

CD - glad you're starting this! Maybe you could do the remaining Chapters (11, 19, 32, 43, 46, 48 and 75 ) that you mentioned before we start - so we'd have them all together for easy reference? and to see if the ways used are similar to each other...

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 11

故有之以為利，

無之以為用。

 

Therefore, when there is 有(you), it is its benefit,

and 無(wu) is its function.

 

LaoTze uses 有(you) as the tangible parts and 無(wu) as the intangible parts.

The 有(you), the tangible part, is like spokes and the hub, utensils, doors and windows. The 無(wu), the intangible part, is like the hollow space in the described tangible parts.

Edited August 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 19

盜賊無有

There will be no thieves and bandits.

 

The 有(you) in this chapter means "to have" and 無(wu) means "not". 無(wu) was used to negate 有(you). Thus 無有 means "not have" or "have not".

 

Note:

In general, 無(wu) means "not" is to negate any verb or change a positive thought to a negative as in any other language. However, LaoTze used 無(wu), in some special cases, in a very clever way throughout the Tao Te Ching.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 43

無有入無間

The invisible force enters a none hollow space.

 

無有(wu you), LaoTze was using them as an invisible force because of the verb 入(enter). In order for something to enter a solid body, it has to be some kind of force and invisible.

 

無: none

間: space, a gap in between.

 

Again, 無(wu) here was used to negate "space" to make "space" become solidify. Thus 無間 means "non-space".

Edited August 27, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 32

1. 道常無，名樸。

2. 始制有名，

 

1. When Tao was always in the State of Wu, thus it was simple and natural.

 

2. At the beginning of the manifestation of Tao, the names were given to all things that are created.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 46

1. 天下有道

2. 天下無道

 

1. The country is on course by following the principles of Tao, .....

2. The country is not on course by not following the principles of Tao, .....

 

1. 有道(has Tao): following the principles of Tao.

2. 無道(has no Tao): not following the principles of Tao.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 48

取天下常以無事，及其有事，

Ruling a country with no disturbance(無事) and with wearisome office affairs(有事)....

 

無事(wu shi): no disturbance

有事(you shi): has wearisome official affairs

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 75

以其上之有為

High above has a You Wei(有為).

 

有為(You Wei) : premeditated action expecting results.

 

This is the only chapter had first mentioned 有為(You Wei), the complement of Wu Wei(無為) .

[rene]

CD, 10,000 thanks for getting these all out! I'm going to copy them down onto one sheet to ponder the differences... there seems to be a pattern and I want to check a few things further so will respond tomorrow. Very cool stuff. (-: G'nite.

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

.......

[Marblehead]

_{Yeah, thanks CD! I'm gonna' wait for Rene but I do want to say I like the way you said this:}

 

This is the only chapter had first mentioned 有為(You Wei), the complement of Wu Wei(無為) .

[rene]

CD, hi

 

One of my references show the occurence of 無 (wu) in Chapters 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 19, 20, 24, 26, 28, 32, 34, 35, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 43, 46, 48, 49, 50, 52, 57, 58, 59, 63, 64, 69, 70, 72, 75, 78, 79 and 80. (I have not personally verified every chapter.)

 

If I may ask... what was it about the uses of 無 in the Chapters you chose (1, 2, 11, 19, 32, 43, 46, 48 and 75) that prompted you to choose those particular chapters?

 

Thanks!

[ChiDragon]

Hi, rene

I thought you might be curious about that....!!!

It was for the same reason as in post #64:

無(wu) was used to negate 有(you). Thus 無有 means "not have" or "have not".

 

All the Wu's in the rest of the chapters were used to negate something.

Examples:

無知: knowing nothing

無欲: no desire

 

 

If I may ask... what was it about the uses of 無 in the Chapters you chose (1, 2, 11, 19, 32, 43, 46, 48 and 75) that prompted you to choose those particular chapters?

"Wu" have specific meanings in these chapters as I had explained.

Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[rene]

CD, thanks. Using just your chapters...do you see any differences in uses (of wu) between this:

 

Chapter 32

1. 道常無，名樸。

2. 始制有名，

 

1. When Tao was always in the State of Wu, thus it was simple and natural.

2. At the beginning of the manifestation of Tao, the names were given to all things that are created.

 

 

- and this from your Ch 43 post -

 

Again, 無(wu) here was used to negate "space" to make "space" become solidify. Thus 無間 means "non-space".

 

***

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(I'm trying to see if we're at the same starting point...tks!)