Secondary New Wu Wei Thread

[Marblehead]

Hi Folks,

 

Here we go again.

 

First, although the link is posted elsewhere I would like to post it here for reading and consideration:

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/tgl/tgl008.htm

 

Anyhow. What I would like to do is discuss the various Chapters of the TTC where "wu wei" is mentioned in any line of each Chapter.

 

In doing this I think it only fair to use more than one translation of the TTC in order to see the similarities and differences between them. I am thinking that Robert Henricks (new), John Wu (old) and Wayne Wang (different) would be good resources.

 

I now have a copy of the TTC in Pinyin on my computer so that I can find the occurances of the term "wu wei" and I will reference its location on the internet the first time I use it.

 

Discussion is important so everyone please join in.

 

If there is an occurance that I have missed as I am going through the Chapters (1 - 81) please let me know so that we can discuss it.

 

If anyone has any suggestions as to what we can add to the discussion in order to make it more complete please let me know.

 

A good primer of "Wu" and the "Wu State" can be found here in the opening post:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/24462-the-states-of-tao/page__pid__352729__st__0entry352729

 

The starting gun has been fired.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 2 Relativity

1. 天下皆知美之為美，

2. 斯惡已；

3. 皆知善之為善，

4. 斯不善已。

5. 故，

6. 有無相生，

7. 難易相成，

8. 長短相形，

9. 高下相盈，

10.音聲相和，

11.前後相隨。

12.恒也。

13.是以聖人處無為之事，

14.行不言之教。

15.萬物作焉而不辭。

16.生而不有，

17.為而不恃，

18.功成而弗居。

19.夫唯弗居，

20.是以不去。

 

In Terse English

1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty,

2. Then, saw ugliness.

3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness,

4. Then, saw evil.

5. Therefore,

6. Solid and space coexisted;

7. Difficulty and easiness mutually succeeded;

8. Long and short mutually formed;

9. High and low mutually encompassed;

10.Melodies and songs mutually harmonized;

11.Front and back mutually trailed;

12.Always the same.

13.Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei).

14.Gives silent instructions.

15.Let things be with no interference;

16.Grow without possession.

17.Sustain without domination.

18.Success without dwelling.

19.Because of not dwelling alone,

20.Merits do not vanish.

 

 

Line 13 of Chapter 2, Wu Wei is the first time it appears.

Edited August 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You were in a hurry to get started.

 

Okay, let's look at this in the format I suggested:

 

Chapter 2, Line 13

 

Pinyin: chu wu wei zhi shi,

 

Henricks: Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs

 

J Wu: Therefore the Sage manages his affairs without ado,

 

Wang: The Sage prefers tasks of Wu-action,

 

Interesting, so different but so similar. Words of preferred choice by the translator.

 

 

And as I mentioned, I would post the link and give credit for where I found the Pinyin transliteration:

 

http://www.wuwei.org/

 

and specifically:

 

http://www.wuwei.org/Taoism/taochinese.html

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 2

1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty,

2. Then, saw ugliness.

3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness,

4. Then, saw evil.

5. Therefore,

6. Solid and space coexisted;

7. Difficulty and easiness mutually succeeded;

8. Long and short mutually formed;

9. High and low mutually encompassed;

10.Melodies and songs mutually harmonized;

11.Front and back mutually trailed;

12.Always the same.

13.Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei).

 

The reason I want to get a head start was very important. In order to interpret line 13, one must read the lines above it. Lines 1 and 3 are active; and lines 2 and 4 are passive but happening spontaneously as the result of lines 1 and 3 respectively. Also, lines 6 through 11, the dyad are mutually interacting with each other. LaoTze was introducing all this natural phenomena for his explanations in the future chapters.

 

14.Gives silent instructions(no instruction).

15.Let things be with no interference;

16.Grown without possession.

17.Sustain without domination.

18.Success without dwelling.

19.Because of not dwelling alone,

20.Merits do not vanish.

 

Lines 14 through 18 are the samples given the clues to the reader, in bold, to show what Wu Wei was. Hence, one must consider these clues as definition for Wu Wei for the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching in the later chapters.

 

 

PS....

Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course". This sound familiar.....???

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

13.Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei).

Indeed, the word "natural" is very important to my understanding of wu wei.

 

For me:

 

Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

 

That is, doing what needs be done with no alterior motive. (In the state of wu wei there is no ego [actually, no self either].) (Hehehe. Maybe that's why I am in the state of Yo more often than I am in the state of Wu? I do love my ego.)

 

For me also, 'wei wu wei' is simply that active aspect of "wu wei". Wu wei also includes just sitting and meditating if there is nothing to be done.

 

I will wait a day for others to respond and then post the next Chapter/Line where "wu wei" is mentioned.

[Marblehead]

PS....

Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course". This sound familiar.....???

 

Yes, but sometimes I have to go out into the gardens and pull weeds. Nature has a way of growing weeds that I do not appreciate.

[ChiDragon]

Indeed, the word "natural" is very important to my understanding of wu wei.

 

For me:

 

Wu Wei = without (unnatural) action.

 

That is, doing what needs be done with no alterior motive. (In the state of wu wei there is no ego [actually, no self either].) (Hehehe. Maybe that's why I am in the state of Yo more often than I am in the state of Wu? I do love my ego.)

 

 

Indeed, you have a very good understanding of Wu Wei.

 

 

PS.....

I would leave "wei wu wei" and meditation out of this thread to avoid confusion for now....

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Yes, but sometimes I have to go out into the gardens and pull weeds. Nature has a way of growing weeds that I do not appreciate.

It is the nature of the weed to grow.

It is the nature of Marblehead to pull it.

You are nature's way of controlling the weeds.

[ChiDragon]

The weeds are the least concern for human. Wu Wei is a philosophy mostly applied to human life.

[Marblehead]

It is the nature of the weed to grow.

It is the nature of Marblehead to pull it.

You are nature's way of controlling the weeds.

Yes, we could say that this is an example of wu wei in a cause and effect process.

 

And true, the weeds are of no importance except to MH.

[Marblehead]

Almost time to do the next occurance which is Chapter 3. Interestingly though, it is the phrase 'wei wu wei' in the Pinyin.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Time for Chapter 3. This is going to be a tough one for me so I welcome any corrections/additions to this first post. (Note: The number of lines vary between each of the four sources so consider that this is not an error but just my best attempt to get it pretty right.)

 

Pinyin, Chapter 3, Lines 11 - 14

 

chang shi min wu zhi wu yu;

shi fu zhi zhe bu gan wei ye.

wei wu wei,

ze wu bu zhi.

 

 

Henricks, Lines 9 - 11

 

He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires.

If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act,

Then there is nothing that will not be in order.

 

 

J Wu, Lines 12 - 15

 

In this way he will cause the people to remain without

knowledge and without desire, and prevent the

knowing ones from any ado.

Practice Non-Ado, and everything will be in order.

 

 

Wang, Lines 7 - 9

 

In order to guide people to the Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire.

This keeps men of knowledge refrained from daring, and act only with Wu.

Nothing is then unmanaged.

 

 

 

Have fun!

[Stosh]

Horrifying!

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Horrifying!

Stosh

Hehehe. Yes, but give it time, the waters will clear.

[ChiDragon]

CD's translation...

 

Chapter 3

1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia,

2. Discourage people from striving.

3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,

4. Prevent people from being thieves.

5. Not being seen desirable,

6. People won't become perturbed.

7. With sagacious ruling,

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bone,

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

[ChiDragon]

Henricks, Lines 9 - 11

He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires.

If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act,

Then there is nothing that will not be in order.

 

 

CD...

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei,

15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....)

 

 

J Wu, Lines 12 - 15

In this way he will cause the people to remain without

knowledge and without desire, and prevent the

knowing ones from any ado.

Practice Non-Ado, and everything will be in order.

 

 

Wang, Lines 7 - 9

In order to guide people to the Wu-wisdom and Wu-desire.

This keeps men of knowledge refrained from daring, and act only with Wu.

Nothing is then unmanaged.

Edited August 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

CD...

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei,

15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....)

 

The reason I like to keep the term Wu Wei in the translation is because, after all, it is the whole philosophy that LaoTze was tried to convey and well defined in Chapter 2.

 

Wu Wei is the first appeared in Chapter 2. Therefore, LaoTze spelled out the definition of Wu Wei there. If one is in doubt what Wu Wei is, one can always go back to Chapter 2 as a reminder.

Edited August 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

The reason I like to keep the term Wu Wei in the translation is because, after all, it is the whole philosophy that LaoTze was tried to convey and well defined in Chapter 2.

Fair enough, I think, since Line 13, Pinyin does read "Wei wu Wei"

[Stosh]

[in reference to post #4 of secondary wu ei thread

 

You said that

Line 13 Sage handles matters in a natural manner(Wu Wei).

and that That line referrs to the subsequent ones

You said

"LaoTze was introducing all this natural phenomena for his explanations in the future chapters."

 

Which indicates that he is defining what the term means precisely ..as he means it!

 

Why are you retreating from that by inferring that it was only "clues" in your next statement

 

"Lines 14 through 18 are the samples given the clues to the reader, in bold,

to show what Wu Wei was. Hence, one must consider these clues as definition

for Wu Wei for the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching in the later chapters."

 

Then you go farther and redefine what he meant to an english phrase

 

Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course".

 

to a native english speaker.

It means ..to let things happen as they would without interference

(as in line 15 , alone !)

 

this leaves lines 14,16,17,18,19,and 20- obviated.

 

If he wasnt writing just to fill space, then those other lines retain significance,

and if they retain significance, one cannot rightly boil the concept down to line 15 alone.

 

 

Either he is saying one can rightly influence ,in subtle ways

what will happen , or he is saying one should not influence, in any way

that which will happen , (in order to copy a sage).

 

In post 12

It seems that Pinyin uses the wei wu wei term in line 13

and that your translation shifts from that precision

(precision by virtue of being already defined in ch 2)

to 'trailing a natural path' in your line 14

then you cross out your own lines 14 and 15 , in post 16 !

then line 14 is changed to wu-wei in post 17!

 

Seriously ,

I dont know any chinese,, but the logic being employed

Exposes itself to doubt based on its own appearance.

Sorry, Ill just quit the thread.

 

Stosh

[ChiDragon]

MOD....

please removes this double entry. Thanks.

Edited August 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In reference to post #4 of secondary wu Wei thread

 

Seriously ,

I dont know any chinese,, but the logic being employed

Exposes itself to doubt based on its own appearance.

Sorry, Ill just quit the thread.

 

Stosh

 

to a native english speaker.

It means ..to let things happen as they would without interference

(as in line 15 , alone !)

 

this leaves lines 14,16,17,18,19,and 20- obviated.

 

14.Gives silent instructions(no instruction).

15.Let things be with no interference;

16.Grown without possession.

17.Sustain without domination.

18.Success without dwelling.

19.Because of not dwelling alone,

20.Merits do not vanish.

If you treat line 15 as the main clue, then the rest of the lines would be just examples of the clue.

 

 

Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course".

Isn't what lines 14 through 18 are the hidden messages which are suggesting that Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course"

 

 

 

PS.....

This is the way how the Chinese classic was written. It doesn't write out what exactly what it says but only given clues. Sometimes, a phrase does not say what it meant nor meant what it says. It is very paradoxical. It was up to the reader to find the clues in the text by linking the thoughts from line to line. It is up to the reader to put the clues together, just like a jig puzzle, to make some sense out of the context.

[ChiDragon]

In post 12

It seems that Pinyin uses the wei wu wei term in line 13

and that your translation shifts from that precision

(precision by virtue of being already defined in ch 2)

to 'trailing a natural path' in your line 14

then you cross out your own lines 14 and 15 , in post 16 !

then line 14 is changed to wu-wei in post 17!

 

Stosh

 

 

CD...

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei,

15. Then, there is nothing that couldn't be handled (done, finished, accomplished, completed and etc.....)

 

The reason I do that was to include the term "Wu Wei" in the Translation because it was in the original classic.

 

Don't you think that "Trailing to a natural path" implies the meaning of "the attitude of Wu Wei"....???

 

PS....

It was also my trick to see who will question the way you do. BTW You have a very conscious mind. If you keep that up, you might not even have to quit this thread......

Edited August 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

View PostChiDragon, on 06 August 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

The reason I like to keep the term Wu Wei in the translation is because, after all, it is the whole philosophy that LaoTze was tried to convey and well defined in Chapter 2.

 

Fair enough, I think, since Line 13, Pinyin does read "Wei wu Wei"

 

Fyi, "wei wu wei" first appears at Line 13 in Chapter 3, rather than Chapter 2.

[ChiDragon]

14. Trailing to a natural path,

14. Because we are seriously taken the attitude of Wu Wei,

 

Don't you see line 14(s) stated the reason why it is FOR Wu Wei (Wie Wu Wei) .....???

 

 

PS...

In order to understand the Chinese classic properly, one must read the whole chapter and consider all the pertinent interpretations to get the overall picture.

 

 

PPS...

Chapter 2 defines Wu Wei; and Chapter 3 referenced to it by stating the reason why it was FOR Wu Wei Wu(Wei Wu Wei).

Edited August 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Fyi, "wei wu wei" first appears at Line 13 in Chapter 3, rather than Chapter 2.

 

Agree.