Secondary New Wu Wei Thread

[ChiDragon]

Pinyin (Lines 1 - 12)

01. zai ying po bao yi,

02. neng wu li hu?

03. tuan qi zhi rou,

04. neng ru ying er hu?

05. di chu xuan lan,

06. neng wu ci hu?

07. ai min zhi guo,

08. neng wu wei hu?

09. tian men kai he,

10. neng wei ci hu?

11. ming bai si da,

12. neng wu zhi hu?

 

Chapter 10

1. 載營魄抱一，

2. 能無離乎﹖

3. 專氣致柔，

4. 能如嬰兒乎﹖

5. 滌除玄覽，

6. 能無疵乎﹖

7. 愛民治國，

8. 能無為乎﹖

9. 天門開闔，

10.能為雌乎﹖

11.明白四達，

12.能無知乎。

 

Terse English

1. Soul and body as oneness,

2. Can they not separate?

3. Concentrate the vital force(chi) to its extreme softness(calmness),

4. Can it be like an infant?

5. Cleansing the deep reflector(mirror),

6. Can it be flawless?

7. Love the people and rule the country,

8. Can it be natural and Wu Wei(benevolent)?

9. Opening and closing the heavenly gate,

10.Can it be feminized(focus on stillness)?

11.Understand the four directions,

12.Can it not be relied on wisdom?

[et-thoughts]

That's an interesting wonderment. Perhaps we can talk about it some time.

 

Indeed... perhaps now would be as good a moment as any other now! be it in this thread or a new one... just let me know the time-space for the talking and wonderment...

 

Oh (Wu Wei) seemed to be defined as benevolent in one of the lines posted...

[Marblehead]

Oh (Wu Wei) seemed to be defined as benevolent in one of the lines posted...

 

Interesting too that Henricks translated lines 8 and 12 identically.

 

Indeed... perhaps now would be as good a moment as any other now! be it in this thread or a new one... just let me know the time-space for the talking and wonderment...

 

I think a new thread would be best. It's hard for me to keep my trains linked.

 

Would you do the honor of starting one? You could just repeat that phrase I spoke to or you could build on it a little as well.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Marblehead

[et-thoughts]

I think a new thread would be best. It's hard for me to keep my trains linked.

 

Would you do the honor of starting one? You could just repeat that phrase I spoke to or you could build on it a little as well.

Sure can and have... here is the link

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24538-a-dualistic-singularity-and-the-natural-mannerwu-wei/

 

Note that the subject words arrangement used sort of plays a bit with the core ideas...

the natural manner

and

singularity

dualistic

 

My current appreciation seeks an integrative consolidation that shifts from a fuzzy dualistic judgmental comparative appreciation towards clearer distinctions akin to the shift done when moving from warm-cold distinctions towards a temperature scale. will post this on the other thread to get the interchange going there...

[Marblehead]

 

8. Can it be natural and Wu Wei(benevolent)?

 

 

So, ChiDragon, why did you opt to include the word "benevolent" in line 8?

 

I actually like John Wu's use of the word "cleverness" because I think it relays a better meaning than does "knowledge".

[Stosh]

Edited August 14, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yes, I think "Artifice" would be a good word as well. (Without trickery.)

 

Re. Sexist Stereotypes

 

Hehehe. Did you note though that Wang avoided that? And yes, the use of the word "female" was a bad choice, IMO. I think that "feminine" is the most correct translation because in my understanding we are here talking about the concept of "Yin" which is most often considered feminine. (Sex really has nothing to do with what is being said.)

[ChiDragon]

So, ChiDragon, why did you opt to include the word "benevolent" in line 8?

 

7. Love the people and rule the country,

8. Can it be natural and Wu Wei(benevolent)?

 

"Benevolent" was the intended meaning for Wu Wei, linking to line 7, with an implication that a ruler was caring and loving his people by running his country with benevolence.

 

It was another principle of Wu Wei which was advocated by LaoTze in the TTC.

 

I actually like John Wu's use of the word "cleverness" because I think it relays a better meaning than does "knowledge".

I think John Wu was using another version of the TTC which line 8 says:

無知(wu zhi) instead of 無為(wu wei).

Edited August 15, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

 

PS does line 10 really require everyone to subscibe to 2000 year old sexist stereotypes or tell men to act like women , Its rather offensive.

 

Stosh

 

In the ancient Chinese thinking, the features of a woman were considered to be soft, quiet and calm. It was considered that anyone who has the patience like a woman was actually a very nice compliment at the time.,

[Marblehead]

I think John Wu was using another version of the TTC which line 8 says:

無知(wu zhi) instead of 無為(wu wei).

For sure he used the Wang Bi (Pi) edition.

[Stosh]

<p>

Hehehe. Did you note though that Wang avoided that? And yes, the use of the word "female" was a bad choice, IMO. I think that "feminine" is the most correct translation because in my understanding we are here talking about the concept of "Yin" which is most often considered feminine. (Sex really has nothing to do with what is being said.)

 

On the Chinese side of the translations I never know if there is some linguistic reason for the choices made ,heading to the english, So.. I dont know who would be closest, Wang or elsewho.

I was told that yin and yang were most accurately described as the light and dark sides of a hill.

And I am told men and women have both yin and yang aspects and that yin and yang are terms about things relative to one another.

If thats all true then Yin is not an inherently gender biased term in the original Classic text!

If the term used in this chapter WAS a gender biased term then one would be stuck with gender bias in the final translation to english ..( otherwise one would be corrupting the orginal.. essentially re-writing it rather than doing accurate translation)

Wu and Henricks have both introduced gender bias , distorting the original text.

I couldnt give two flying hoots what their own personal associations for yin and yang are-were,Likewise the general public's associations have no validity to re-write the original either!

One quite properly translates to terms ,which will be under stood for correct meaning,but it is not correct to distort the meaning to reflect habitual terms erroneously applied.

I am not a woman

I am not trying to act like, or be a woman

I do not think being a man is bad

I do not think being a woman equates to good

I do not think you can characterize either gender so generically

as to say one is Yin and the other Yang

If you want to be a woman ,and are not

,or, act like a woman, because you think being a man is bad,

go right ahead.

But as far as the text goes , thats a distortion.

Stosh

Edited August 15, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I was told that yin and yang were most accurately described as the light and dark sides of a hill.

And I am told men and women have both yin and yang aspects and that yin and yang are terms about things relative to one another.

I think that is a very good understanding and you should hold to it.

 

ChiDragon mentioned a valuable point and I think that this should be considered when reading the various translations.

[Stosh]

Yep

He makes many insightful comments

But which comment you are referring to ,I dont know.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yep

He makes many insightful comments

But which comment you are referring to ,I dont know.

Stosh

How about this one:

 

In the ancient Chinese thinking, the features of a woman were considered to be soft, quiet and calm. It was considered that anyone who has the patience like a woman was actually a very nice compliment at the time.,

 

Different cultures, different perspectives.

[ChiDragon]

For sure he used the Wang Bi (Pi) edition.

 

 

He seems to be used the version of Fu Yi (555 - 639)

愛民治國，

能無以知乎。

[Stosh]

Different cultures, different perspectives.

Thats quite true about different cultures and its one of those odd factoids that add color to descriptionsyou just dont get everywhere.But at the same time it struck me as a diversionary excuse for not wanting to correct a blatant distortion which is offensive in the current context.Cd told me that he had learned not to compromise when it came to telling truth.So what am I to make of it when he dodges the point with such a factoid?Ill Stop there.Stosh

[Marblehead]

Thats quite true about different cultures and its one of those odd factoids that add color to descriptionsyou just dont get everywhere.But at the same time it struck me as a diversionary excuse for not wanting to correct a blatant distortion which is offensive in the current context.Cd told me that he had learned not to compromise when it came to telling truth.So what am I to make of it when he dodges the point with such a factoid?Ill Stop there.Stosh

Hehehe. I guess you will just have to get over it. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

 

Yes, ChiDragon is right as he is interested mainly in translating the TTC into modern English as best he can without distortion and without adding to or subtracting from the original text.

 

I, on the other hand, have done some pretty good modifications so that it best fits my needs. And afterall, Henricks may have been the most correct with his use of the word "female".

 

I do see your point and understand your concern but I can't do anything about it.

[Stosh]

And afterall, Henricks may have been the most correct with his use of the word "female".

Why do you think Yin is female in that sentence.I gave reasons why not Give a reason why.Sosh

[Marblehead]

Why do you think Yin is female in that sentence.I gave reasons why not Give a reason why.Sosh

I had this discussion a very long time ago but cannot remember who argued what.

 

I didn't say Yin is female. I prefer feminine. Yang is masculine and Yin is feminine. That's the way I learned it.

 

This link talks to this subject:

 

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/Mystfem.html

[Stosh]

Sorry , thats BS like you called in the other thread

You said..

"Yes, we should remain flexible in our beliefs just in case someone shows us where one of our understandings is wrong or misunderstood. "

 

That just happened

Its a circular argument to say yin is female-feminine because you learned it that way.

 

This is exactly why I asked whether the Classic reading

really specifies women-femaleness-femininity in the original.

BY the way,,

It was Cd himself who described yin and yang as light and dark sides of a hill

 

An issue keeps cropping up which is logically false,,

That a Yin equates to lakes and darkness the moon and women

and that Yang equates to mountains and light the sun and men

so therefore yin is female and yang is male

because by the exact same reasoning yin is lakes and yang is mountains

So nobody could say that the suggestion was for certain ,to be feminine ,

it could just as logically be a suggestion to act like a moon!

What the heck does the moon have in common with a woman!

Moons are not women! Its a ridiculous process to lump all those

dissimilar things together, except! if there is a common thread

Thats Yin

The common thread is not femininity, its the yin principle itself.

Telling an assertive woman , say,Cat , that she should act more feminine

is an insult to her ,,She actually IS a woman.

Telling a man he has to act feminine otherwise he is a problem is also an insult!

If I were to say to any guy I know

You have the patience of a woman ....

I dont think he would take it like a 2000 yr old chinese dude unless he was gay

and wanted to be thought of as feminine.

Moreover I would bet that the average heterosexual man in China today would also

have issues with that comment.

I cant be sure of that but in general if I started telling him various ways that he was like a woman ,,at some point I would get a punch in the face.

 

Stosh

 

PS I dont follow redirects , if a person cant support their own point I dont need to post to them.

( I dont mean that as harsh as it sounds , but I do mean it)

Have a nice evening.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

If I were to say to any guy I know

You have the patience of a woman ....

I dont think he would take it like a 2000 yr old chinese dude unless he was gay

and wanted to be thought of as feminine.

Moreover I would bet that the average heterosexual man in China today would also

have issues with that comment.

I cant be sure of that but in general if I started telling him various ways that he was like a woman ,,at some point I would get a punch in the face.

 

Stosh

 

PS I dont follow redirects , if a person cant support their own point I dont need to post to them.

( I dont mean that as harsh as it sounds , but I do mean it)

Have a nice evening.

 

Stosh

 

The guy you told "You have the patience of a woman ...." may see that as quite a complement IF the guy sees a woman's patience as generally better than a man's patience... the same goes for the various other ways ... of course if the guy has a negative view of the women traits sure it will likely be offensive...

[Marblehead]

Hi Stosh,

 

We will go nowhere with this. You have a fixed mind-set and so do I. This is not my arguement. This is an arguement between you and Lao Tzu.

 

TTC, Chapter 6, Henricks' translation:

 

1. The valley spirit never dies;

2. We call it the mysterious female.

3. The gates of the mysterious female—

4. These we call the roots of Heaven and Earth.

5. Subtle yet everlasting! It seems to exist.

6. In being used, it is not exhausted.

 

What more can I say?

[Stosh]

You can say whether the classic term is female or if it is yin

Like I said ,... for a third time

if the classic text contains a gender specific term

then we are stuck with it

But if it Doesnt then its a distortion.

 

As you pointed out

Wu chose not to include one in his line.

 

and Quoting Henricks to back up a possible distortion by henricks is uninformative

 

 

( and yes I would still be at odds with Lao anyway, but I wouldnt be at odds with Yall sticking to that terminology in the translation,, and I would also be at odds with Cd for what he wrote contrary elsewhere )

 

There is nothing holding any of us to being honest or to accept new truth as a verdict.

But plain honesty would be nice and sociable.

Telling straight men that they are supposted to act like women isnt exactly promoting natural relations.

Stosh

Edited August 16, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

_{Hi Stosh,}

 

_{You are still putting the burden on me. Hehehe. But that's okay, I can handle it.}

 

_{Okay, Let's look at the Pinyin version of Chapter 6:}

 

_{gu shen bu si,}

_{shi wei xuan pin.}

_{xuan pin zhi men,}

_{shi wei tian di gen.}

_{mian mian ruo cun,}

_{yong zhi bu qin.}

_{I don't see the word "Yin" in there anywhere.}

_{Derek Lin's first two lines of Chapter 6 read:}

_{The valley spirit, undying}

_{Is called the Mustic Female.}

_{He footnotes this as follows:}

_{"The spirit of the valley is a powerful symbol for yin, the universal female principle. It is eternal; it has always existed and will always exist. This principle has many names. We can call it the sacred feminine, or the Mystic Female."}

_{Now, yes, I understand what you are saying. No, I'm not going to start wearing short skirts.}

_{However, Yang connotes action and Yin connotes rest. This correlates with "Wu wei" in that there will be times for action and after the action is completed it is time for rest.}

_{Sexuality has nothing to do with this. No, you don't have to start acting like a woman. Hey!, we shouldn't act anyhow - we should just be what we are, whatever that might be.}

_{I sure hope we are getting closer to an understanding (not necessarily agreement).}

[Marblehead]

On to the next mention of Wu Wei. (Stosh, we can continue the discussion ir you wish.)

 

Gonna' need some help from my Chinese reading friends 'cause I see no relationship with the Pinyin "wu wei" and the translations.

 

Chapter 35, Lines 7 - 11

 

Pinyin

 

dao zhi chu kou,

dan hu qi wu wei,

shi zhi bu zu jian,

ting zhi bu zu wen,

yong zhi bu zu ji.

 

　

Henricks

 

When you look at it, it's not sufficient to be seen;

When you listen to it, it's not sufficient to be heard;

Yet when you use it, it can't be used up.

 

　

J Wu

 

Though they are mild and flavorless,

Though they appeal neither to the eye nor to the ear.

　

 

Wang

 

Looking at it, it is invisible.

Listening to it, it is inaudible.

But, when used, it is never exhausted.